1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Nemis-Roidsavelt]

 He was totally justified in his actions.

[Wompoo]

Was Anders justified no, is the Circle/Chantry/Templar solution the correct one, no. The Chantry is no golden haired child either, the Exalted march on the Elves shows they are just as destructive as Tervinter (spelling) mages were and just as oppressive if you do not agree with them. If anything, Elves and Mages have a huge axe to grind against the Chantry and Templars. Hopefully there is no Maker, faith built on a lie and oppression. Anders is guilty, the Chantry and Templars are guilty. 1000 years of house arrest for mages due to fear, the Chantry and Templars created their own hell. Anders is nothing but a small foot note, it is the Champion that they want to save their stinking hides and I hope he/she doesn't.

[Oneiropolos]

People seem to identify the "No, Anders was insane" group as identical to the " all mages need to be behind bars!" group. They're not the same. Orsino might have gone crazy in his fear ( though he was TOTALLY corrupt beforehand, as we see per his letter to Quentin the serial killer). But look at the scene. Stop and look at it. Orsino is going to go talk to the Grand Cleric, Meredith freaks out and stops him. Why? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ELTHINA WAS DOING SOMETHING IN HER TALKS WITH THEM. She SAYS she's talking with Meredith and Orsino. She says there's go betweens, the only source we hear that say that she's 'leading the mages on' is a freaking Templar who wants to assume Elthina would side with the Templars. But clearly, Meredith is NOT so certain of this fact because otherwise Meredith would be smugly allowing Orsino to go in and get told off.

Elthina seems to actually have mage leanings. She can also give you a sad smile at one point in the game and tell you that you're overestimating her power. The templars are the military arm of the Chantry. But Meredith was not sent to Kirkwall because Elthina asked for her, she was sent there in official capacity. Theoretically, what the Grand Cleric says goes. But Meredith is not supposed to be assuming charge of the Viscount's business anymore or basically puppet controlling the previous viscount. Why does Elthina not write to Orlais about all the troubles? Because you -see- what happens when Leliana shows up. She basically goes, "Yep, there's going to be a divine march on the city because all of you are so screwed up". And Elthina knew that. Sebastian is horrified when Elthina first states it and sends you all to try to convince the emissary otherwise. He insists there's no way that they would involve innocents over this matter, and Elthina asks him if he really thought Andraste's wars were fought with no cost.


No. Elthina was NOT Sitting there not doing anything. She was clearly trying her hardest to BE The compromise. To find the middle ground. To prevent a divine march on the very city. If Anders wanted to blow up the building to make a point, fine. But I maintain as I did from my first playthrough, if he had used his abilities as a healer of somehow putting a shield around everyone in the chantry and the surrounding area WHILE blowing up the building, it'd have made a much more potent argument. It'd be a "Look, I could have just killed them all with my magic, but my magic that can destroy can also save. We're not all lunatic blood mages." Instead... Anders just proved he was a bloodthirsty mage, not a blood mage.

[Mnemnosyne]

Was it reasonably possible for Anders to foresee that his action would lead to widespread mage revolution throughout Thedas? That's the question I'd need answered before I could say if Anders was justified in his actions or not.

At the moment, I don't really believe he could have foreseen that. The more likely result seems to be that, while some of the mages in Kirkwall would escape in the ensuing battle, many would die and this would spread no further. I don't see any reason for Anders or Hawke or any of the characters to believe that this is going to spark a mage revolution throughout Thedas.

So, if he cannot reasonably believe that a mage revolution will be the outcome, then no, he's not justified in his actions.

On the other hand, if he does have solid reasons to believe that this is going to lead to a widespread mage revolution, then he is justified. If this is the case however, the game doesn't show it to us at all. I could come up with some theoretical scenarios where he does have reason to believe. If he'd been planning something for a long time and had contacts throughout Thedas then he would have good reasons to think this act might trigger revolution. But since the game never once shows us Anders having any contact with anyone from other cities/countries, we cannot assume this is the case, and we must believe that he was acting blindly with no larger plan in mind, simply with the wild hope that revolution would be the result.

[Icy Magebane]

He accomplished his goals, but those goals were flawed from the start. Mages should not be free to bargain with demons at their leisure, and lord over the common man with supernatural abilities.

Also, I'm pointing out right now that Anders is a damn liar. "I've never met a mage who wanted to rule anything!" Yeah okay, keep downplaying the situation... hell, he knew my Warden, who ruled Amaranthine AND Ferelden with an iron fist. What about the Magisters? Technically he may not have met them, but he knows damn well what they are like... I don't take anything he says seriously, and meeting him makes it so much simpler to decide on which side to take in this conflict.

[Obadiah]

No way no how. Martyrdom be damned, I executed him on the spot.

[LobselVith8]

Anders solmely spoke about how more mages died of suicide than anything else.

He laments the current situation with the mages and wants to change it because he believes the Circles have failed the mages. Even after he destroys the Chantry, he accepts that it will likely mean his death, and he only hopes his death will inspire mages to rise up and free themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Given the horrors in the Kirkwall Circle and how it could twist two sane mages into psychopaths (On the Loose), including a former member of the Ferelden Circle, I can see why Anders felt it necessary that change needed to happen now, after nearly a thousand years of the status quo.

[Vormaerin]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...


What do you think is going to happen in this war? The mages will somehow win? How are they going to do that? What armies are on their side? Anders did the ONE thing that guaranteed that nearly every hand in Thedas would be turned against mages.

It's just a hunch, but I suspect Hawke will determine the outcome of the war in DA3.

Possibly, but if that was Anders' plan, it was REALLY stupid.  Especially in the case of non mage friendly Champions...

[Vormaerin]

Koyasha wrote...

Was it reasonably possible for Anders to foresee that his action would lead to widespread mage revolution throughout Thedas? That's the question I'd need answered before I could say if Anders was justified in his actions or not.

.

I think he could be reasonably certain that a mage revolt would result, because he knew that the resulting hysteria after a cathedral bombing would lead to a lot of mages being lynched if they didn't fight back.   His "plan" had nothing to do with getting rid of Meredith, Cullen, or any of the like minded templars.   It was to make sure that Wynne, Thrask, Greagoir, Irving, and all of those type people couldn't possibly stop a slaughter of the other wizards from happening, so the mages would have no choice but to fight or die.

There's no rational way he could think that Orsino's Circle could survive a direct conflict with Meredith's Templars.  It doesn't even with Hawke's help.  He was condemning all of them to death as martyrs for his cause and forcing the rest of the Circles to face the same fate if they didn't resist.

[sphinxess]

Oneiropolos wrote...

People seem to identify the "No, Anders was insane" group as identical to the " all mages need to be behind bars!" group. They're not the same. Orsino might have gone crazy in his fear ( though he was TOTALLY corrupt beforehand, as we see per his letter to Quentin the serial killer). But look at the scene. Stop and look at it. Orsino is going to go talk to the Grand Cleric, Meredith freaks out and stops him. Why? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY ELTHINA WAS DOING SOMETHING IN HER TALKS WITH THEM. She SAYS she's talking with Meredith and Orsino. She says there's go betweens, the only source we hear that say that she's 'leading the mages on' is a freaking Templar who wants to assume Elthina would side with the Templars. But clearly, Meredith is NOT so certain of this fact because otherwise Meredith would be smugly allowing Orsino to go in and get told off.

Elthina seems to actually have mage leanings. She can also give you a sad smile at one point in the game and tell you that you're overestimating her power. The templars are the military arm of the Chantry. But Meredith was not sent to Kirkwall because Elthina asked for her, she was sent there in official capacity. Theoretically, what the Grand Cleric says goes. But Meredith is not supposed to be assuming charge of the Viscount's business anymore or basically puppet controlling the previous viscount. Why does Elthina not write to Orlais about all the troubles? Because you -see- what happens when Leliana shows up. She basically goes, "Yep, there's going to be a divine march on the city because all of you are so screwed up". And Elthina knew that. Sebastian is horrified when Elthina first states it and sends you all to try to convince the emissary otherwise. He insists there's no way that they would involve innocents over this matter, and Elthina asks him if he really thought Andraste's wars were fought with no cost.


No. Elthina was NOT Sitting there not doing anything. She was clearly trying her hardest to BE The compromise. To find the middle ground. To prevent a divine march on the very city. If Anders wanted to blow up the building to make a point, fine. But I maintain as I did from my first playthrough, if he had used his abilities as a healer of somehow putting a shield around everyone in the chantry and the surrounding area WHILE blowing up the building, it'd have made a much more potent argument. It'd be a "Look, I could have just killed them all with my magic, but my magic that can destroy can also save. We're not all lunatic blood mages." Instead... Anders just proved he was a bloodthirsty mage, not a blood mage.

I am sure it wasn't the intent but this has really convinced me Anders did the right thing - you explain Elthina was powerless and Meredith came to the city with orders from above. So we have a chantry that wants to run things all the way from Orlais. A divine march was planned? OH MY! I think Anders being a lunatic mage is terrific now - it has got to scare the chantry to death that no longer will constant fighting be between just templars and mages but the chantry itself is in danger if it doesn't alter its teachings. Strike too hard and get more mad bombers running around. Makes a lot of sense now why they are looking for the champion before the world goes up in flames.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

The choice of any mage like Bethany, Elle, and the others who just want to live and be accepted is taken away. The only choice now is fight or die. All the "mages are evil, dangerous things" views threaded throughout society is now proven right. They didn't attack templars. They blew up a cathedral. People all over Thedas are going to say "They murdered priestesses" not "Those templars sure were evil."

What do you think is going to happen in this war? The mages will somehow win? How are they going to do that? What armies are on their side? Anders did the ONE thing that guaranteed that nearly every hand in Thedas would be turned against mages.

Did you watch the expression on Meridith when she issued her blatently illegal right of annulment?  The woman was practically dancing with glee.  Meridith for a long time wanted to slaughter all mages and wanted to do so very, very badly.  If you side with her and she gives you "Best Served Cold" mission, she clearly tells you that she is desperately fishing for any information that will implicate Orsino and thus justify the genocide of all mages in the city.  Meridith at this point in Act 3 clearly feels that the only good mage is a dead mage, including mages wih impecable records like Bethany or even the Champion who she claims to respect (and lies about this too).

There is no option to live and be accepted with Meridith as KC.  It's either revolt and possibly die quickly or die slowly.  In this Anders was completely correct.  I blame Erlina the Grand Cleric.  She has the authority as Grand Cleric to stop this by canning KC Merideth and shipping her to Orlais, and in spite of Meridith's blantent violations of Chantry law, she refuses to do so.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 avril 2011 - 03:03 .

[Hurbster]

Well since Meredith had been turned bat**** crazy by a lyrium idol, Orsino was a blood mage and therefore obviously evil (never mind his non-intervention in the lily-killer case), Anders has no justification at all to murder all those people.

So yeah, stabby time.

[The Angry One]

Do you "hur hur blow up Elthina" people ever consider that Elthina had more than the damn mages to think about?
ALL of the people of Kirkwall would be at risk if she acted rashly; attempting to oust Meredith could result in Meredith rebelling.
The Chantry would not stand for that but you know what that would result in? An Exalted March. Exalted Marches are not nice, they usually end up slaughtering whole populations.

[Obadiah]

Hurbster wrote...

Well since Meredith had been turned bat**** crazy by a lyrium idol, Orsino was a blood mage and therefore obviously evil (never mind his non-intervention in the lily-killer case), Anders has no justification at all to murder all those people.

So yeah, stabby time.

Orsino wasn't a blood mage. He says so in the Templar ending. He just knew enough to practise the one spell.

[Deztyn]

Icy Magebane wrote...

He accomplished his goals, but those goals were flawed from the start. Mages should not be free to bargain with demons at their leisure, and lord over the common man with supernatural abilities.

Also, I'm pointing out right now that Anders is a damn liar. "I've never met a mage who wanted to rule anything!" Yeah okay, keep downplaying the situation... hell, he knew my Warden, who ruled Amaranthine AND Ferelden with an iron fist. What about the Magisters? Technically he may not have met them, but he knows damn well what they are like... I don't take anything he says seriously, and meeting him makes it so much simpler to decide on which side to take in this conflict.

"Justice is no malevolent influence, as you seem to think. He is the embodiment of righteousness. If he disapproves of something, it is wrong."

 ~ Anders, Approximately five minutes after 'Justice' murdered poor scared and confused Ella while she begged for her life.

Boy has completely lost his marbles. I don't understand why so many other people have a hard time acknowledging this.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

Do you "hur hur blow up Elthina" people ever consider that Elthina had more than the damn mages to think about?
ALL of the people of Kirkwall would be at risk if she acted rashly; attempting to oust Meredith could result in Meredith rebelling.
The Chantry would not stand for that but you know what that would result in? An Exalted March. Exalted Marches are not nice, they usually end up slaughtering whole populations.

So your solution is to have an immediate suboridinate flout her authority, take liberaties far above her station, and liberties that are forbidden by Chantry Law!  Just as mages are forbidden from holding noble titles, so are Templars but Meridith all but wears the Viscount's crown and does so essentially spitting at the authority of the woman who is supposed to be her boss.

Truman fired the war-hero McArthur for less than this.  Yes, Elthina is at fault and she deserved to burn.

-Polaris

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no option to live and be accepted with Meridith as KC.

-Polaris

Again, you are confusing Kirkwall with the whole world.   The whole point....and problem...with Anders' action is that it is NOT directed at the corrupted Templars of Kirkwall.  It does NOTHING about Meredith at all, except make anyone who isn't staring at her cackling visage think she must be right.

Anders' action guarantees that there is NOWHERE in Thedas except Tevinter that is going to be supportive of mages.   He's writing off the mages of Kirkwall en masse (they are doomed) and forcing their problems onto every other mage in the world.   That's his solution.   His plan.   Ensure that the mages everywhere have no choice but to fight or die because he did something so heinous everyone is going to react with pure horror.

[Mnemnosyne]

Vormaerin wrote...

I think he could be reasonably certain that a mage revolt would result, because he knew that the resulting hysteria after a cathedral bombing would lead to a lot of mages being lynched if they didn't fight back.   His "plan" had nothing to do with getting rid of Meredith, Cullen, or any of the like minded templars.   It was to make sure that Wynne, Thrask, Greagoir, Irving, and all of those type people couldn't possibly stop a slaughter of the other wizards from happening, so the mages would have no choice but to fight or die.

There's no rational way he could think that Orsino's Circle could survive a direct conflict with Meredith's Templars.  It doesn't even with Hawke's help.  He was condemning all of them to death as martyrs for his cause and forcing the rest of the Circles to face the same fate if they didn't resist.

Why is it reasonable to assume that his action would result in attempted annulments of every Circle in Thedas?  Seventeen times in history has the Rite of Annulment been used (18 if the Warden sides with the Templars in Broken Circle, I suppose), presumably each time with a devastating reason such as lots of loose abominations or large numbers of blood mages or something of that nature, and it has yet to lead to a widespread attack on all Circles, or a widespread mage rebellion.

If he was blowing up the Grand Cathedral at Val Royeaux, maybe it would be reasonable to presume that this would lead to such widespread condemnation of mages that it could be a foreseeable event, but blowing up one chantry in one city in the Free Marches?  It's more of a wild hope that such a reaction might come to pass.

The Angry One wrote...

Do you "hur hur blow up Elthina" people ever consider that Elthina had more than the damn mages to think about?
ALL
of the people of Kirkwall would be at risk if she acted rashly;
attempting to oust Meredith could result in Meredith rebelling.
The
Chantry would not stand for that but you know what that would result in?
An Exalted March. Exalted Marches are not nice, they usually end up
slaughtering whole populations.

I honestly can't see Meredith rebelling resulting in anything more than a couple dozen hardcore Meredith supporters standing by her side, and the rest of the templars following chain of command and listening to Elthina, who would probably promote Cullen to Knight-Commander. 

Given the number of templars who are questioning her, and above those, the number of templars who are willing to join in an actual conspiracy involving actual blood mages simply to bring her down, it's clear she didn't have the fanatical support of the vast majority of templars.  

The majority of templars likely followed orders simply because no higher authority countermanded her, and if Elthina had simply demoted Meredith or even merely temporarily stripped her authority 'pending review' and put Cullen in charge, most of the templars would have gladly followed his orders.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...


Did you watch the expression on Meridith when she issued her blatently illegal right of annulment?  /

-Polaris

I don't know. Off all the protests various characters raise against that order, no one challenges it as illegal. If it was I'm sure Orsino or Cullen would haved called her out on it. Someone would have.

The Chantry must have rules in place for who is in charge between the time a Grand Cleric dies and a new one is appointed. The KC seems logical.

[Beerfish]

Yeah it really solved the mage-templar problem. 

[Vormaerin]

Koyasha wrote...


If he was blowing up the Grand Cathedral at Val Royeaux, maybe it would be reasonable to presume that this would lead to such widespread condemnation of mages that it could be a foreseeable event, but blowing up one chantry in one city in the Free Marches?  It's more of a wild hope that such a reaction might come to pass.

I think you are underestimating the importance of "one chantry".  He's not blowing up a parish church.  He's blowing up a major cathedral.  Sure, its not St. Peter's Basilica, but its going to be noticed.  And its going to be reported as "rebellious Circle destroys Cathedral, murders the Divine's hand picked Archbishop".

He's played right into Meredith's hand.  The ONLY reason his plan does not result in her complete triumph is because she ends up getting killed by Hawke (or the idol, depending on your POV).

A fairly good equivalent in the real world is during the Swedish invasion of Poland in the 17th century.   Poland basically rolled over and Charles Gustav occupied the whole country without much resistance.  Then some idiot Swede attacked the monastery of Jasna Gora and the very Catholic Poles suddenly revolted en masse.    Religion is a lot more important in pre modern times than it is for us.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 03 avril 2011 - 03:57 .

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Did you watch the expression on Meridith when she issued her blatently illegal right of annulment?  /

-Polaris

I don't know. Off all the protests various characters raise against that order, no one challenges it as illegal. If it was I'm sure Orsino or Cullen would haved called her out on it. Someone would have.

The Chantry must have rules in place for who is in charge between the time a Grand Cleric dies and a new one is appointed. The KC seems logical.

It's not.  Templars no matter how high ranking are not allowed to unilaterially declare a rite of anullment.  That is a deliberate check and balance by the Chantry to keep the Templars by abusing this most absolute final solution.  KC Gregoire explains it quite well in DAO as does Wynne.  Meridith's actions were blatently illegal.  The problem is that other than the Champion, no one has the stones to call her on it (and hasn't for over a decade...the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).  The templars for the most part are just as frightened of her as the mages.

If you talk with Knight Captain Cullen (if you side with the Templars), he openly admits that he has dire doubts about the necessity and legality of Meridith's actions, but there is no one for him to turn to.

-Polaris

[Beerfish]

IanPolaris wrote...


It's not.  Templars no matter how high ranking are not allowed to unilaterially declare a rite of anullment.  That is a deliberate check and balance by the Chantry to keep the Templars by abusing this most absolute final solution.  KC Gregoire explains it quite well in DAO as does Wynne.  Meridith's actions were blatently illegal.  The problem is that other than the Champion, no one has the stones to call her on it (and hasn't for over a decade...the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).  The templars for the most part are just as frightened of her as the mages.

If you talk with Knight Captain Cullen (if you side with the Templars), he openly admits that he has dire doubts about the necessity and legality of Meridith's actions, but there is no one for him to turn to.

-Polaris

So, after the chantry was blown up by Anders the templars are not allowed to invoke annulment?

Also you will have to point out to me where is says they cannot invoke annulment?  They had to ask for it in DAO but I never saw the rule sheet that says they can't do it under certain circumstances.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish, it's explicitly stated that the Rite of Annulment is given solely by the Grand Cleric, and that's why Knight-Commander Greagoir was waiting for word from Denerim during the incident with Uldred.