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[TEWR]

If we're going to quote characters and take their opinions as fact

Wynne said it with certainty. The kind of certainty that says it's fact.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that I value Merrill's intellect over their ignorance, we'll leave it at that.

Thank you. Most people see Merrill as stupid. She's naive, but not stupid. In fact, I value her word on things Magic related more than most peoples'. Especially people who let the Chantry's views sway their mindsets.

Indeed, from what I can tell, Merrill has a better understanding of magic and the fade that puts every other mage in the game to shame even including Mage-Hawke.  I think it's criminal that the Devs chose to package such a wise and knowledgeable source of magical lore into the voice and persona of a twit.  IMHO it's one more sign that the Devs want you to hate "forbidden" magic without seriously thinking about it.  If you can't change the message (because the lore is established) then you can make the messeger into a twit.

-Polaris

I don't think Merrill has the voice of a twit. In fact I  her voice . In fact I just  Merrill. .

Persona of a naive person yea, but I still love Merrill.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think Merrill has the voice of a twit. In fact I  her voice . In fact I just  Merrill. .

Persona of a naive person yea, but I still love Merrill.

I agree actually and I am suprised that I do.  I was prepared to hate Merrill because at first romancinge her seemed to be like Pedophillia,but next to the other characters (esp other romanceable characters), she is far better IMHO.

That said, her utter naivity and the way that others regard her as stupid (and Aveline outright calls Merrill stupid at least once) tells me that the Devs don't intend for you to take Merrill seriously....and by so doing they trash the message she is giving by trashing the messager.  That was my point.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

Eromenos wrote...

Anders was justified. No one's obligated to let others benefit from one's isolation, suffering, containment, blacklisting, segregation, imprisonment, fear, persecution, loss of dignity, loss of choices. Those are only a few concepts. And they all happen to be combined.

There were no innocents in the Chantry. All of them were complicit in oppressing mages with a blanket criminal label and with the use of terror. The Chantry is the faction employing cultural terrorism. (No exceptions in the building, not even the janitors.) They all exhibit the faith and uniform that benefit the same machine. Rapes, tortures, blackmail, exposure, deprivation, thefts, vandalism, abductions, murders. Scapegoating. "Mundane" humiliations. Dismissal of these abuses against mages. The Chantry declared war by action, even if its platitudes pretend otherwise.

Anders was not trying to be "better" than his hunters were. It's about no more giving ground, no more capitulation. Real monsters are the ones who turn the lock and throw away the key just because they can, whether in their hearts or with their actual fingers. Those are immediate forfeitures of any claim to being a noncombatant in war. Claims about "fighting fair" are BS from people being possessive about their image/rank/status in society. No such thing as "fair fighting" exists; it is only a lie used to demean oppressed people.

(As I recall, the explosion occurred at evening when the place gets closed off to the public. The bomb did not even spread its debris onto the city, but cast outward beyond its borders. TBH, Anders gave them more mercy than they deserved. Their deaths were instantaneous. After they saw it coming.)

"There can be no peace." Vengeance or Justice, either way is worthy and either way can destroy the status quo power structure. It should be no surprise Anders devalued the lives of his enemies. Why give mercy to those who are incapable of it? So what if he started a French Revolution? Given the choices at hand, even anarchy would've been preferable. He did his world a favor by slaughtering even just those few hypocrites whose word was overvalued.

This is exactly my view, only worded a lot more eloquently.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think Merrill has the voice of a twit. In fact I  her voice . In fact I just  Merrill. .

Persona of a naive person yea, but I still love Merrill.

I agree actually and I am suprised that I do.  I was prepared to hate Merrill because at first romancinge her seemed to be like Pedophillia,but next to the other characters (esp other romanceable characters), she is far better IMHO.

That said, her utter naivity and the way that others regard her as stupid (and Aveline outright calls Merrill stupid at least once) tells me that the Devs don't intend for you to take Merrill seriously....and by so doing they trash the message she is giving by trashing the messager.  That was my point.

-Polaris

Ah gotcha. I guess when people react to her it's because they think they know everything based on Chantry teachings and refute what she has to say as being nonsense and falsehoods. When really, no one knows the truth of the matter. Merrill just looks at it in her own way, not an indoctrinated version. A demon is pretty much just another spirit, who has changed from embodying one virtue to embodying something else. That doesn't make them different entities.

Still, I agree that by calling the messenger stupid, the message never really gets delivered. And I'll always take Merrill seriously (save for her fear of dire bunnies. That makes me laugh. But in things magic related, yea.)

[Heavensrun]

Benchmark wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Before I get into any of this, I'd like to take a moment to point out that we're debating the merits of a practice from a fictional universe that isn't possible in real life, and our "evidence" in all respects is comprised of what people in that universe have -said- about blood magic.



There's absolutely no indication that Jowan ever made any kind of deal with a demon in DA:O.  There's no indication that learning the blood mage specialty from the tome in awakenings involves dealing with a demon.  There's no indication that Orsino ever conspired with demons, even though he knows blood magic.  You're -assuming- a demon had to be involved, because you're assuming blood magic requires a demon to learn.  Circular logic is circular.

And when have we ever seen a Blood mage erase anybody's memory?  I'm asking an honest question there, I don't recall any examples of this.  In fact, the only time I recall -any- mage mucking with someone's actual -mind-, explicitly, it was in the circle tower, with Cullen, and the mage in question was -already- posessed by a pride demon.

Blood magic, by definition, requires the aid of a demon/spirit.

Source?  Because from what I've seen, Blood magic, by definition, requires -blood-.  You're operating on an assumption here, that because some blood magic you've seen involves using the aid of demons, that -all- blood magic requires the aid of a demon.  That's a logical fallacy.

Unless they elaborate more on it's exact action, the explanation I have seen in game is that the "magic" part is actually a pact made with a demon to borrow their power and the "blood" part is merely a payment you make for that pact. Need more power- give more blood, or someone else's blood. Or just give your body for a while, short loan like. You will get it back. Promises.

Can you state exactly where you saw this explanation?  Who said it?  Were they a templar or a mage?  Were they talking about -all- blood magic, or just a particular act?  Were they a blood mage themselves?

The blood sacrifice attracts the fade creature that lends you the strength to do... whatever. Recall the Hawke party's initial reaction to Merril using blood magic. Bethany states that she called something from the fade. Merril claims that it was helpful, sarcaHawk will respond that they are really helpful, up until they take your mind. Merril (practicing blood mage) agrees with that assessment but claims to be able to resist. I always took that as a Mage's overconfidence. "It can't happen to me!" bam

I'll agree that Merrill is doing the demon pact on occasion, and she's got a bit of a drug-user mentality on it ("I've got a handle on it!  I can quit whenever I want!")  But again, because on one occasion (or even several) a blood mage used blood magic to summon a spirit/demon, that doesn't mean that's what blood magic -is-.  Another practicing blood mage, Jowan, was -never shown to interact with any demons- aside from when he was -exorcising- the one from Connor.

Mind mucking happened all through the series. Maybe not erasing. If that is all you are looking for I don't remember any either. I do* remember total manipulation of the senses, mind control, body control, and turning people into willless puppets. Pretty mucky.

I never saw anything that lead me to believe their mind was being mucked with, just that their bodies were being controlled.  But even if they were being mentally controlled, we haven't seen anything at this point that indicates that your typical blood mage can just erase themselves from your memories.  In fact, if they -could- do that, don't you think they'd be more of a threat in general when you run across them?  If "guy with sword" can take out a your average blood mage ambush, how menacing can they really be, individually?  Not to say they're not potentially dangerous, but I don't see anything to indicate that the average blood mage is any more dangerous than the average mage, or for that matter, the average rouge or the average warrior.

The really powerful, or particularly unscrupulous ones might be a greater danger, but that's -still- true for mages in general.  And I haven't seen any actual examples of blood mages being any more effective at hiding themselves from scrutiny than ordinary mages.

[Heavensrun]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think Merrill has the voice of a twit. In fact I  her voice . In fact I just  Merrill. .

Persona of a naive person yea, but I still love Merrill.

I agree actually and I am suprised that I do.  I was prepared to hate Merrill because at first romancinge her seemed to be like Pedophillia,but next to the other characters (esp other romanceable characters), she is far better IMHO.

That said, her utter naivity and the way that others regard her as stupid (and Aveline outright calls Merrill stupid at least once) tells me that the Devs don't intend for you to take Merrill seriously....and by so doing they trash the message she is giving by trashing the messager.  That was my point.

-Polaris

I don't get the pedophilia comments.  Never have.  She's a grown woman well past the age of consent.  Especially since you don't even start romancing her until you've known her for a few years.  We know she's older than she looks, and she certainly doesn't look like she's younger than, say, 18 anyway, which while -young- is -far- from pedophilia.

Do people not actually know what pedophilia is?

This is all getting away from the topic, though.

[Plaintiff]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't think Merrill has the voice of a twit. In fact I  her voice . In fact I just  Merrill. .

Persona of a naive person yea, but I still love Merrill.

I agree actually and I am suprised that I do.  I was prepared to hate Merrill because at first romancinge her seemed to be like Pedophillia,but next to the other characters (esp other romanceable characters), she is far better IMHO.

That said, her utter naivity and the way that others regard her as stupid (and Aveline outright calls Merrill stupid at least once) tells me that the Devs don't intend for you to take Merrill seriously....and by so doing they trash the message she is giving by trashing the messager.  That was my point.

-Polaris

I don't think that's true. I think their intention was that players would examine all the presented viewpoints critically, on every subject. Otherwise, why provide conflicting viewpoints in the first place? If they intended for the player to shun blood magic, why make it an available specialization? Why give us characters like Jowan and Merrill who demonstarte that it has utility beyond mind control and making people explode?
 
What bothers me about Merrill is that, despite the acknowledgement that all fade beings are dangerous, she insisted on going back to the demon, rather than looking for alternative ways to fix the Eluvian, because going to the demon was easier. She's determined to fix it, "whatever it takes", but not willing to do the hard yards and say, head to the Ferelden Circle tower where there is "a great many books" and look for one that has information on Eluvians. I mean, come on, Ariane's not even a mage, and she came up with that gem all on her own. 

If Merrill is really so bent on reclaiming her people's lost history, she would do better to stay away from the magic mirror she knows nothing about until she's done a bit more research. While she's at it, she could get to work translating the ancient elvhen language and kill two birds with one stone

[Plaintiff]

Heavensrun wrote...

Before I get into any of this, I'd like to take a moment to point out that we're debating the merits of a practice from a fictional universe that isn't possible in real life, and our "evidence" in all respects is comprised of what people in that universe have -said- about blood magic.



There's absolutely no indication that Jowan ever made any kind of deal with a demon in DA:O.  There's no indication that learning the blood mage specialty from the tome in awakenings involves dealing with a demon.  There's no indication that Orsino ever conspired with demons, even though he knows blood magic.  You're -assuming- a demon had to be involved, because you're assuming blood magic requires a demon to learn.  Circular logic is circular.

This is a really good point, actually. There's a lot of conflicting evidence about demons being related to blood magic. Anders is a good example, he says to Fenris that to become a blood mage you have to look a demon in the eye and accept its offer. But when he's speaking to Merrill, he asks her if she stumbled upon it accidentally, if she "cut herself and realized the power".

I was given to understand that blood has innate magical properties in Dragon Age, and that any mage can utilize it as a source for power, but few take the option because the knowledge is forbidden. I'd theorize that all mages have the capability for blood magic, and what the demons actually give them is the knowledge of how to use it.

[IanPolaris]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't think that's true. I think their intention was that players would examine all the presented viewpoints critically, on every subject. Otherwise, why provide conflicting viewpoints in the first place? If they intended for the player to shun blood magic, why make it an available specialization? Why give us characters like Jowan and Merrill who demonstarte that it has utility beyond mind control and making people explode?

I disagree.  If the Devs wanted for us to examine Merill's PoV honestly and without prejudice, they'd voice those opinions in someone that isn't so naive that everyone around her calls (or treats her as) stupid.  She's not, but you'd never know it based on how the NPCs react around her.  This is killing the message by sliming the messenger.  As for why bloodmagic is available:

1.  It was available in DAO and players expect to be able to take it.
2.  They wanted you to be able to be an evil Hawke and to them there are few things more evil than being a Maleficar.....but for Mage-Hawke the game utterly fails to show that.

What bothers me about Merrill is that, despite the acknowledgement that all fade beings are dangerous, she insisted on going back to the demon, rather than looking for alternative ways to fix the Eluvian, because going to the demon was easier. She's determined to fix it, "whatever it takes", but not willing to do the hard yards and say, head to the Ferelden Circle tower where there is "a great many books" and look for one that has information on Eluvians. I mean, come on, Ariane's not even a mage, and she came up with that gem all on her own. 

Actually she explains this.  The lore of the Elluvians is thousands of years old and there are only three even remotely reliable ways to get it (because the Mirror predates other sources):

1.  Tevinter
2.  The Dalish Keepers
3. Fade Spirits (Demons)

Obviously Tevinter is not an option.  Merethari out of her own fear and guilt closed off option 2.  That leaves only one other option.  As for the circle, even if they had the information (they don't) it likely would require bloodmagic.  Merrill is not only a known apostate, she is a maleficar.  She goes to the gallows even once without Hawke,and she'll be dead in minutes.

If Merrill is really so bent on reclaiming her people's lost history, she would do better to stay away from the magic mirror she knows nothing about until she's done a bit more research. While she's at it, she could get to work translating the ancient elvhen language and kill two birds with one stone

That mirror is (according to her) her best shot at actually restoring something that was Key to the Kingdom of Arlathan.  I think her devotion is understandable.  As for translating Elven and helping people with lore, I expect that's how Merrill earns a living when she's not tramping around with Hawke.

-Polaris

[Mnemnosyne]

Heavensrun wrote...

I never saw anything that lead me to believe their mind was being mucked with, just that their bodies were being controlled.  But even if they were being mentally controlled, we haven't seen anything at this point that indicates that your typical blood mage can just erase themselves from your memories.  In fact, if they -could- do that, don't you think they'd be more of a threat in general when you run across them?  If "guy with sword" can take out a your average blood mage ambush, how menacing can they really be, individually?  Not to say they're not potentially dangerous, but I don't see anything to indicate that the average blood mage is any more dangerous than the average mage, or for that matter, the average rouge or the average warrior.

The really powerful, or particularly unscrupulous ones might be a greater danger, but that's -still- true for mages in general.  And I haven't seen any actual examples of blood mages being any more effective at hiding themselves from scrutiny than ordinary mages.

Actually, Avernus makes it clear he can subtly and strongly influence people's thinking through blood magic, and that if Sophia had let him do more, they may have succeeded in their rebellion.  This is also said to be the main danger of blood magic.  We see Idunna controlling Hawke directly - not only her body, but also her mind when she forces Hawke to reveal that Viveka showed her books to Hawke to identify Idunna.  We also see her being subtle - her initial influence on one of the party is essentially unnoticeable as magic, but it immediately shifts the point of view of all the characters to her side.  It doesn't work on Hawke until she gets really forceful because, well, main character plot armor, but it works on any other companion I've ever brought, without anyone noticing anything strange going on.

Plaintiff wrote...

What bothers me about Merrill is that, despite the acknowledgement that all
fade beings are dangerous, she insisted on going back to the demon,
rather than looking for alternative ways to fix the Eluvian, because
going to the demon was easier. She's determined to fix it, "whatever it
takes", but not willing to do the hard yards and say, head to the
Ferelden Circle tower where there is "a great many books" and look for
one that has information on Eluvians. I mean, come on, Ariane's not even
a mage, and she came up with that gem all on her own.

I think Merrill's explanation for this is reasonably plausible.  She isn't aware of anyone else having information on them, and as far as she knows, no information about the eluvians survived the fall of Arlathan.  Ariane says to check the Circle tower not because she thought of it on her own, but because her Keeper commented on it, but did not want her to go there.  Marethari probably knows of other places where Merrill could get information on fixing it, but has withheld the information.  Without such information it is reasonable for Merrill to presume that no knowledge on the eluvians has survived.  After all, most of the information on Arlathan magic and civilization is lost, so why should she jump to the conclusion that information on the eluvians has survived? 

Keep in mind that the Warden, Finn, and Ariane still needed information from the talking statue, and Morrigan needed both the book she stole from Ariane's clan, and some of what she has learned from Flemeth to make it work so there's no guarantee that any of the books has the information Merrill needs anyway.

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If we're going to quote characters and take their opinions as fact

Wynne said it with certainty. The kind of certainty that says it's fact.

So did Anders when he spoke about his own experiences with Justice.

Feel free to continue acknowledging only the tiny bits of posts you want and ignoring the rest. <3

[tiernanls]

like i said. as much as i liked the story in both games, i think all the pro blood mage people are giving the writers way more credit than they deserve.

and having played through every possible variable of the game that i am aware of in both one and two it is my humble opinion that putting merrills knowledge of magic up on some gigantic pedestal where she is the most reputable source is just plain lunacy. she released a demon from imprisonment, made a deal with it, and did so with absolutely no foresight as to any kind of end game. then when she got what SHE wanted out of it, she pretty much just left it there. wow, she threw up a few magical walls that any fool mage with blood magic could get past. how responsible of her. merrill is brilliant. dont get me wrong. im sure she has a very high iq. but sometimes brilliant people can be just about the dumbest asses on the face of the earth when it comes down to plain ol common sense.

through all of my playthroughs no one has come accross as a more open minded and knowledgable source of the uses of every spec in magic than wynn outside of possibly first enchanter irving. even right down to her belief that being an abomination may not be irreversable, and to her own first hand knowledge of demons and spirits based on the experiences she describes in her youth and her own ultimate melding with her own guardian spirit. merrill is smart about the uses of magic. but shes arrogant and presumptious about her ability to control them. shes great, and i like her, its just ultimately her particular character fault. every character in 2 has one.

and yes the wardens themselves justify the use of blood magic as a means to an end, but they do so without really understanding the consequences. duncan himself who is the head of the order in fereldon admits to not having really any knowledge of magic. just that it is useful and the darkspawn have mages so he thinks we should have some. its that simple to a warden. right down to asking the mage origin hero about the harrowing and the fade. he really had no idea other than he thought it was usefull. their whole world view is actually quite simple. only thing that matters is killing darkspawn. everything else is irrelevant. right down to buggin out of a city being sieged by qunari. so quite frankly their view on the uses of blood magic are quite irrelevant. to them its up to the individual mage.

at the end of the day it comes down to what is the point. if the use of blood magic ultimately results in hardhsip for the individual who practices it why practice. orsino knew the dude who murdered your mother was going around murdering people for his research. why condone that? just based on that knowledge alone its easy as hell for me to assume (tho it is still just an assumption) that meredith was only imposing restriction on the mages from the get go because of the constant finding of blood mages and because of murderers like the one that kills your mother. rape, beatings and illegal tranquility are completely seperate matters. just like individual practice of blood magic should be a seperate matter. and there is absolutely no evidence to support any suggetion that meredith wasnt investigating or punishing ann of those atrocities that she was made aware of. none whatsoever. if you do not want one side painted with the same brush you cannot paint the other with the same brush. this is anders biggest hipocracy throughout the game.

and to the small aside requesting that real world politics be left out, im sorry. but theyre absolutely applicable. if you dont think real world events inspire writers youre jsut being extremely naive. its absolutely on topic. its a completely emotional and opinionated topic. our real world experience absolutely shape how we feel about those things. to say they must be left out is like saying we cant argue about it at all and that we should just wait for the writers to show up and tell us what it all means (which honestly i kinda wish they would so it could just be settled, lol). especially when a poster makes a completely narrow minded statement saying all who do nothing are guilty through lack of action right down to the janitors. thats a ridiculous statement. if that were the case anyone not actively trying to bring down the catholic church deserves death for the atrocities they have committed and condoned throughout its history. same with the american governments attempted genocide of native americans. just because elthina was one of the few people in kirkwall that actually PRACTICED her faith doesnt mean shes quilty of condoning the worst templar actions. in fact she spoke out against them more than she did the acts of blood mages. just because any individual chooses to practice his/her beliefs through non-violent means doesnt make them guilty of condoning anything. you cannot paint one side or the other with one brush. to do so would have to mean the acknowledgement that both sides deserve eradication based on that train of thought.

in the end its an interesting and debate stimulating topic. im more than ok with siding with anders and/or mages (tho they are hardly the same side imo) within the context of the game alone. its just that to me its hard not to take a hard-lined stance one way or the other without going into a world-view based opinion. were all on here with the unbelievable luxury of argueing about a plot twist in a game. but its a plot twist that by design is supposed to tug on your emotional strings. and for anyone to say that anders was it all justified in what he did in the end is just shocking to me. i can buy being on his side right up to the destruction of the chantry. he took innocent life. its unexusable and unjustifyable to the point that even anders accepted his death for having done so. "i would not deny JUSTICE from anyone".

its just a game, but even with that considered its ridiculous to sit here and say that anyone not actively opposing injustice is quilty of supporting it. we all spend way too much time playing video games to make statements like that. theres a lot of injustice in the real world and i can bet just about everybody in this thread isnt doing a whole lot to stop it. that doesnt mean you deserve to die. imagine youre sitting at home enjoying a run through of dragon age and you find out your entire family is dead because while they were at church it exploded because their church priest/pastor/etc. did not take an active role in the apprehension of members of his/her congregation who were going around and beating/raping/etc. members of the community who did not attend church. is your family's death justified? just saying. even in a game i find it pretty hard to take a hardline stance in support of what is essentially an act of terrorism without considering that theres any kind of scenario in which essentially a similarly justified action could kill you or others that you love. thats kind of the whole point of writing that pulls on your emotional strings. just my opinion.

[Sad Dragon]

Party Camp said...
Wynne: ...Or if a mage could be so possessed and still retain their sanity. Their humanity.

Warden: If one retains one's humanity, one is not an abomination.

Wynne: Yes, it is madness and curelty that defines an abomination. If one remembers his humanity, the one is not.. an abomination

Wynne: I never saw that. Thank you for letting me see another way to look at it.

What I take a way from this -- especialy since the Warden can be a city elf or a dwarf who wont know much about magic -- is that the Warden puts forth another perspective on things, not facts. Wynne then latches on to that point of view and runs with it. 

Just speculating here, but I think she was also wondering about herself what she had become, we give her reassurance that she wants. Whether its true or not, I can no say, but I honestly dont think the Warden knows either.

- The Sad Dragon

[Rifneno]

Plaintiff wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Anders was justified. No one's obligated to let others benefit from one's isolation, suffering, containment, blacklisting, segregation, imprisonment, fear, persecution, loss of dignity, loss of choices. Those are only a few concepts. And they all happen to be combined.

There were no innocents in the Chantry. All of them were complicit in oppressing mages with a blanket criminal label and with the use of terror. The Chantry is the faction employing cultural terrorism. (No exceptions in the building, not even the janitors.) They all exhibit the faith and uniform that benefit the same machine. Rapes, tortures, blackmail, exposure, deprivation, thefts, vandalism, abductions, murders. Scapegoating. "Mundane" humiliations. Dismissal of these abuses against mages. The Chantry declared war by action, even if its platitudes pretend otherwise.

Anders was not trying to be "better" than his hunters were. It's about no more giving ground, no more capitulation. Real monsters are the ones who turn the lock and throw away the key just because they can, whether in their hearts or with their actual fingers. Those are immediate forfeitures of any claim to being a noncombatant in war. Claims about "fighting fair" are BS from people being possessive about their image/rank/status in society. No such thing as "fair fighting" exists; it is only a lie used to demean oppressed people.

(As I recall, the explosion occurred at evening when the place gets closed off to the public. The bomb did not even spread its debris onto the city, but cast outward beyond its borders. TBH, Anders gave them more mercy than they deserved. Their deaths were instantaneous. After they saw it coming.)

"There can be no peace." Vengeance or Justice, either way is worthy and either way can destroy the status quo power structure. It should be no surprise Anders devalued the lives of his enemies. Why give mercy to those who are incapable of it? So what if he started a French Revolution? Given the choices at hand, even anarchy would've been preferable. He did his world a favor by slaughtering even just those few hypocrites whose word was overvalued.

This is exactly my view, only worded a lot more eloquently.

Ditto.  I can't write something that long about the entire situation and have it turn out well.  Generally by the second paragraph I'm sputtering enraged vulgarity that would make Isabela blush and by the third I'm saying things about the Chantry that would get me put on a terrorist watch list.  (<EDI>  That is a joke.  </EDI>)  But suffice to say, I don't have the slightest shred of sympathy for the Chantry, most especially Elthina.  I did feel bad for them at first and thought Anders was a monster, but again only at first.  After I thought long and hard about the situation and stopped thinking of the Chantry like it's the peaceful little church down the street and started looking at it for what it is... let's just say my femHawke makes sure Anders doesn't have to wait for the templars to disband to get his happy ending.

Heavensrun wrote...

I don't get the pedophilia comments.  Never have.  She's a grown woman well past the age of consent.  Especially since you don't even start romancing her until you've known her for a few years.  We know she's older than she looks, and she certainly doesn't look like she's younger than, say, 18 anyway, which while -young- is -far- from pedophilia.

Do people not actually know what pedophilia is?

This is true, but it's with good cause.  There's just no apt word for the situation, at least widely known.  It's like "homophobia."  It's not a real phobia nor a recognized psychiatric condition.  But what word fits?  There's no widely known word that means "hate-mongering douchebag that needs to mind their own business."  And that's really a mouthful to say every time.  So we make due with the closest thing we can.  Similar situation here.  No, foraging in Merrill's forest isn't pedophilia, but it just feels... wrong.  To many people she comes off as very child-like mentally if not physically.  Which sets off some alarm bells in any healthy mind.

Koyasha wrote...

We see Idunna controlling Hawke directly - not only her body, but also her mind when she forces Hawke to reveal that Viveka showed her books to Hawke to identify Idunna.  We also see her being subtle - her initial influence on one of the party is essentially unnoticeable as magic, but it immediately shifts the point of view of all the characters to her side.  It doesn't work on Hawke until she gets really forceful because, well, main character plot armor, but it works on any other companion I've ever brought, without anyone noticing anything strange going on.

Idunna is very interesting because she introduces us to something we hadn't previously seen in DA.  A magic that can nonviolently get the truth out of someone.  Seriously, that is world-changing stuff right there.  Why doesn't the Chantry just have a few select mages willingly learn this, keep a small brigade of templars with them at ALL times to prevent corruption, and use these truth mages to avoid SO much more horror?  I know, I know, blood magic bad, but since Idunna converts and helps Hawke later we can determine she is NOT possessed and retains her mortal senses.

Meredith:  Orsino, you are a blood mage!
Orsino:  You're mad, witch!
Truth mage:  Orsino...  tell the truth now.  Are you a blood mage?
Orsino:  ...  <dejected>  Yeah, kind of.
Truth mage:  In fact, you're a harvester aren't you?  Admit it.  You're a harvester and you were the second gunman on the grassy knoll.
Orsino:  ...  All the other kids got to be harvesters and no champions killed them!  
Truth mage:  And Meredith.  You bought a statue of mood slime from Ghostbusters II then brought it to a vortex of evil.
Meredith:  It was on sale!  You know I can't pass up a good sale!

See?  Wouldn't the world be so much better with a few truth mages?

[SovereignofDeath]

Of course it's justified. The fact that he had the power to do it means he has the right to do it and if he wants to go kill a bunch of people in support of mages while i'm a mage go right ahead.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that I value Merrill's intellect over their ignorance, we'll leave it at that.

Thank you. Most people see Merrill as stupid. She's naive, but not stupid. In fact, I value her word on things Magic related more than most peoples'. Especially people who let the Chantry's views sway their mindsets.

Indeed, from what I can tell, Merrill has a better understanding of magic and the fade that puts every other mage in the game to shame even including Mage-Hawke.  I think it's criminal that the Devs chose to package such a wise and knowledgeable source of magical lore into the voice and persona of a twit.  IMHO it's one more sign that the Devs want you to hate "forbidden" magic without seriously thinking about it.  If you can't change the message (because the lore is established) then you can make the messeger into a twit.

-Polaris

I think plenty of people have gotten the message despite Merrill suffering from culture shock. A person capable of building a two thousand year old elven device from nothing but a shard and lore demonstrates knowledge that all the characters who criticize her lack. She understands magic, she's researched the lore about the Eluvian, and she puts down Anders when she tells him that all spirits are dangerous. To me, Merrill is an example that a mage can actively use blood magic for benevolant purposes.

[LobselVith8]

tiernanls wrote...

like i said. as much as i liked the story in both games, i think all the pro blood mage people are giving the writers way more credit than they deserve.

and having played through every possible variable of the game that i am aware of in both one and two it is my humble opinion that putting merrills knowledge of magic up on some gigantic pedestal where she is the most reputable source is just plain lunacy.

Merrill proficiently uses blood magic for several years, understands all spirits are dangerous (which is a point that Anders lacked despite his background as a Circle mage), and builds an Eluvian despite most of the knowledge of the elven devices being lost. People don't put her on a pedestal - they look at what she's capable of and see that she has an intellect that outstrips everyone else in areas of magic and elven lore.

tiernanls wrote...

she released a demon from imprisonment,

Incorrect. Marethari did.

tiernanls wrote...

made a deal with it,

A deal for knowledge on blood magic that still left the demon Audacity imprisoned in the totem.

tiernanls wrote...

and did so with absolutely no foresight as to any kind of end game. then when she got what SHE wanted out of it, she pretty much just left it there. wow, she threw up a few magical walls that any fool mage with blood magic could get past. how responsible of her. merrill is brilliant. dont get me wrong. im sure she has a very high iq. but sometimes brilliant people can be just about the dumbest asses on the face of the earth when it comes down to plain ol common sense.

Despite some factual errors on your part, Audacity was still imprisoned when Merrill went to see him several years after meeting Hawke. She brought Hawke with her to kill her if things went wrong - she has foresight.

tiernanls wrote...

and yes the wardens themselves justify the use of blood magic as a means to an end, but they do so without really understanding the consequences. duncan himself who is the head of the order in fereldon admits to not having really any knowledge of magic. just that it is useful and the darkspawn have mages so he thinks we should have some. its that simple to a warden. right down to asking the mage origin hero about the harrowing and the fade. he really had no idea other than he thought it was usefull. their whole world view is actually quite simple. only thing that matters is killing darkspawn. everything else is irrelevant. right down to buggin out of a city being sieged by qunari. so quite frankly their view on the uses of blood magic are quite irrelevant. to them its up to the individual mage.

The fact that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic for benevolant purposes (i.e. killing darkspawn) is the entire point people are making. Not every mage who uses blood magic means they're "evil," especially when we know from Duncan there are Wardens using such magic to keep the darkspawn at bay.

tiernanls wrote...

at the end of the day it comes down to what is the point. if the use of blood magic ultimately results in hardhsip for the individual who practices it why practice. orsino knew the dude who murdered your mother was going around murdering people for his research. why condone that? just based on that knowledge alone its easy as hell for me to assume (tho it is still just an assumption) that meredith was only imposing restriction on the mages from the get go because of the constant finding of blood mages and because of murderers like the one that kills your mother. rape, beatings and illegal tranquility are completely seperate matters. just like individual practice of blood magic should be a seperate matter. and there is absolutely no evidence to support any suggetion that meredith wasnt investigating or punishing ann of those atrocities that she was made aware of. none whatsoever. if you do not want one side painted with the same brush you cannot paint the other with the same brush. this is anders biggest hipocracy throughout the game.

Considering Knight-Captain Cullen actually endorsed the proposal made for the "Tranquil Solution" and Grand Cleric Elthina didn't care about what Alrik did to the mages, why should we assume that there were any kind of repercussions when the people with authority didn't care about what actually happened?

[Dean_the_Young]

Where did Cullen ever endorse the Tranquil Solution? He said it was something that had been raised, and that some people did suggest.

Moreover, what basis do you have to claim Grand Cleric Elthina didn't care about what Alrik did to the mages, given that she and Alrik have no implied or stated discussion? Alrik's own actions were kept secret from the Templars themselves.

[Rifneno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where did Cullen ever endorse the Tranquil Solution? He said it was something that had been raised, and that some people did suggest.

Moreover, what basis do you have to claim Grand Cleric Elthina didn't care about what Alrik did to the mages, given that she and Alrik have no implied or stated discussion? Alrik's own actions were kept secret from the Templars themselves.

Plausible deniability in all its hatefulness.  Cullen heavily implies he supports the Tranquil Solution, saying with a bit of disdain in his voice that the opposing mages "want no controls on them whatsoever," but he never outright answers the question when Hawke directly asks him if he supports it.  As for Elthina, we really don't know exactly what she knew, but she clearly knows the templars are abusing their power.  If you press her she'll even admit she disapproves of their methods but does her usual "patience, child.  the Maker will do my job for me" nonsense.  We also know Meredith sent word to Val Royeaux asking for the Right of Annulment.  There's no reason she'd do that if she hadn't already petitioned Elthina for it and been denied.  Since Mr. Gaider has informed us that Meredith does indeed have legal authority to excecute the RoA at her sole discression when there's no grand cleric, the absolute LEAST Elthina knew was that she had a looney tunes Knight Commander who would kill every mage in the country as soon as she, an old woman in an age with virtually no medical technology, passed away.  If that isn't criminally irresponsible, I don't know what is.

Modifié par Rifneno, 09 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rifneno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where did Cullen ever endorse the Tranquil Solution? He said it was something that had been raised, and that some people did suggest.

Moreover, what basis do you have to claim Grand Cleric Elthina didn't care about what Alrik did to the mages, given that she and Alrik have no implied or stated discussion? Alrik's own actions were kept secret from the Templars themselves.

Plausible deniability in all its hatefulness.  Cullen heavily implies he supports the Tranquil Solution, saying with a bit of disdain in his voice that the opposing mages "want no controls on them whatsoever," but he never outright answers the question when Hawke directly asks him if he supports it.

Wait. You're not going to even claim he supported it except by an unprovable standard because he didn't outright reject it? Because he react's negatively to a Hawke-prompt about how Mages should be free?

That's not plausible deniability. That isn't even the same argument.

 As for Elthina, we really don't know exactly what she knew, but she clearly knows the templars are abusing their power.  If you press her she'll even admit she disapproves of their methods but does her usual "patience, child.  the Maker will do my job for me" nonsense.  We also know Meredith sent word to Val Royeaux asking for the Right of Annulment.  There's no reason she'd do that if she hadn't already petitioned Elthina for it and been denied.  Since Mr. Gaider has informed us that Meredith does indeed have legal authority to excecute the RoA at her sole discression when there's no grand cleric, the absolute LEAST Elthina knew was that she had a looney tunes Knight Commander who would kill every mage in the country as soon as she, an old woman in an age with virtually no medical technology, passed away.  If that isn't criminally irresponsible, I don't know what is.

You don't know what is, then.

If you can not provide evidence suggesting, implicating, or proving that Elthina knew about a specific abuse, you can not argue with any conviction that she had no problem with that abuse. If you can not demonstrate that Elthina knew about a secret cabal that was not even known to the Templar Commanders, you can't even claim she could have stopped it if she were opposed, nor can you claim she endorsed it.

Meredith wanting a Right of Annullment in the context of Kirkwall does not make Meridith insane. And do not fall into the IanPolaris trap of assuming more than you know: Grand Cleric Elthina passing away from natural causes is an entirely different circumstance than Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry being blown up by an uncontrolled mage, and different circumstances can and usually do have different contingencies for response.

[Rifneno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wait. You're not going to even claim he supported it except by an unprovable standard because he didn't outright reject it? Because he react's negatively to a Hawke-prompt about how Mages should be free?

That's not plausible deniability. That isn't even the same argument.

Bad wording on my part, I apologize for that.  I meant the plausible deniability in regards to Elthina, not Cullen.  Guess I started on one topic and went all ADD onto the other and forgot to remove all the previous one.  Ahh well.  Yes, I am saying he supported it because he didn't reject it outright.  When someone asks you if you support something terrible, you say no.  If someone asked you if you support cutting off the hands off of anyone with brown eyes, you'd say no, not grumble about how people with brown eyes want no restrictions on them at all.

If you can not provide evidence suggesting, implicating, or proving that Elthina knew about a specific abuse, you can not argue with any conviction that she had no problem with that abuse. If you can not demonstrate that Elthina knew about a secret cabal that was not even known to the Templar Commanders, you can't even claim she could have stopped it if she were opposed, nor can you claim she endorsed it.

Isn't the point of plausible deniability that you can deny knowledge of your underling's wrongdoings?  Either it was plausible deniability, she did know and we simply aren't shown absolute proof of such, or the entire Chantry/Templar system was designed by a group of pot-smoking monkeys that just got done sniffing gasoline.

Meredith wanting a Right of Annullment in the context of Kirkwall does not make Meridith insane. And do not fall into the IanPolaris trap of assuming more than you know: Grand Cleric Elthina passing away from natural causes is an entirely different circumstance than Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry being blown up by an uncontrolled mage, and different circumstances can and usually do have different contingencies for response.

So your argument is that Meredith only has legal right to call for an Annulment if there's an emergency, but she still has to ask permission if she wants to call for an Annulment because a mage put a whoopie cushion on her chair.  Riiiiight.  Somehow I sincerely doubt that they have clauses which allow a KC to annul a circle legally if the grand cleric is killed by an apostate.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

 Ahh well.  Yes, I am saying he supported it because he didn't reject it outright.  When someone asks you if you support something terrible, you say no.  If someone asked you if you support cutting off the hands off of anyone with brown eyes, you'd say no, not grumble about how people with brown eyes want no restrictions on them at all.
[/quote]Congratulations: you never asked Cullen whether he supported it or not. You're making a serious accusation based off what was never challenged.

And no, not dignifying something with a rejection is not the same as an assent. If you call my a pedophile, I am in now way obligated to give it any due consideration and deny it, as opposed to ignorring it entirely.

[quote]
Isn't the point of plausible deniability that you can deny knowledge of your underling's wrongdoings? [/quote]Sure. That doesn't mean that all case of an underling's wrongdoings are plausible deniability, however.

All dogs have four legs. Not all things with four legs are dogs. In this case, dogs are plausible deniability and four legs is subordinates running amock.

[quote]
 Either it was plausible deniability, she did know and we simply aren't shown absolute proof of such, or the entire Chantry/Templar system was designed by a group of pot-smoking monkeys that just got done sniffing gasoline.[/quote]False dichtomy, mixed with reducto ad absurdem? Two fallacies in one sentance: nice.



[quote
So your argument is that Meredith only has legal right to call for an Annulment if there's an emergency, but she still has to ask permission if she wants to call for an Annulment because a mage put a whoopie cushion on her chair.  Riiiiight.[/quote]No. Infact, cite wherever I made that argument: I challenge you.

[quote]  Somehow I sincerely doubt that they have clauses which allow a KC to annul a circle legally if the grand cleric is killed by an apostate.[/quote]You're missing the point. Deliberately, I think.

The Circumstance in which Meredith became acting-Grand Cleric was a disaster, an assasination of both the Grand Cleric and the total destruction of the Chantry. There are proceedings for that which gave Meredith the power and right to do an Anullment.

Had the Grand Cleric passed away in her sleep after a period of poor health, with no such disaster, there is nothing to state that the succession would have been the same. Any number of alternatives could have existed, ranging from a pre-selected new Grand Cleric to step in (one not blown up in a fireball) to a non-crisis succession.

Nothing given has mandated that a peaceful death must be followed by the same procedure that occured during the crisis. Assuming such would be the Polaris Fallacy.

[PantheraOnca]

Rifneno wrote...


Meredith:  Orsino, you are a blood mage!
Orsino:  You're mad, witch!
Truth mage:  Orsino...  tell the truth now.  Are you a blood mage?
Orsino:  ...  <dejected>  Yeah, kind of.
Truth mage:  In fact, you're a harvester aren't you?  Admit it.  You're a harvester and you were the second gunman on the grassy knoll.
Orsino:  ...  All the other kids got to be harvesters and no champions killed them!  
Truth mage:  And Meredith.  You bought a statue of mood slime from Ghostbusters II then brought it to a vortex of evil.
Meredith:  It was on sale!  You know I can't pass up a good sale!

See?  Wouldn't the world be so much better with a few truth mages?

Excellent.


edit:

The Circumstance in which Meredith became acting-Grand Cleric was a disaster,

This "acting grand cleric" thing isnt going to go away is it? <_<

Read what Gaider said again, its not that Meredith becomes acting grand cleric, its that Knight Commanders, if the local GC is non-reachable, can enact an annulment on their own. Meredith/Knight Commanders are not in the line of succession for grand clericry.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 09 avril 2011 - 04:06 .

[TEWR]

Deztyn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If we're going to quote characters and take their opinions as fact

Wynne said it with certainty. The kind of certainty that says it's fact.

So did Anders when he spoke about his own experiences with Justice.

Feel free to continue acknowledging only the tiny bits of posts you want and ignoring the rest. <3

meh I was really tired when I posted that and only wanted to address that one thing before heading off to bed. I could also, just to be a smart-ass, take tiny bits of that sentence


Did you ever think that maybe Anders' banter saying "Look a demon in the eye" and "You did blood magic on accident right?" are either:

A) Faulty conflicting banter that may have slipped by the devs considering how rushed the game was
as another poster said, you have to look a demon in the eye for the knowledge on how to use Blood Magic, but blood has an innate power that anyone may happen to stumble across?