1927 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And this made me wonder if you even know what basic rights are.

Why? There's no divine right in Ferelden, there's the Landsmeet, there's inheritance, and people do have rights in Ferelden.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are rights in Thedas. There are no basic rights applied to all Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Kossith. There are only the rights defined by your role in society. A King being top of the food chain with the most rights, next the noble, then Freehodlers, and so on and so forth. The mages do also have their own rights, defined by them being Mages, such as not being amde Tranquil after having passed the Harrowing.
Yes, rights exists in Thedas. No, basic rights don't exist in Thedas.

People in Ferelden don't have the same rights as we do, but they do have rights. Sten makes note of their capacity for self-determination when he contrasts the people in Ferelden with those living under the Qun.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 avril 2011 - 09:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm a fan of the all spirits are the same being theory. So I don't make a distinction between them (Wynne was totally an abomination too, just a nicer one than Vengeance.)

I believe that theory too, but if the Chantry is going to label spirits into two distinct groups, so too should they label Abomination as a demon possession, and something else as a Spirit possession. Because people like Wynne will be murdered because they have a benevolent spirit inside them (I know Wynne's alive, but if the Templars found out, they wouldn't care. Not under this current idea of the definition of an Abomination)

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

[Deztyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I believe that theory too, but if the Chantry is going to label spirits into two distinct groups, so too should they label Abomination as a demon possession, and something else as a Spirit possession. Because people like Wynne will be murdered because they have a benevolent spirit inside them (I know Wynne's alive, but if the Templars found out, they wouldn't care. Not under this current idea of the definition of an Abomination)

So it's really just the terminology you don't like? I find that odd. But in fairness to the templars she might be the only case where things don't go catastrophic after a mage joins with a spirit (As far as we know.)

I don't condone his methods on studying the taint, save for extending his lifespan. But what's done is done, and at least he's agreed to research ethically now. Eventually, he'll redeem himself for those crimes. Also, I wasn't saying Zathrian was a benevolent blood mage. Maybe back when his kids were killed, but not anymore. I was just saying that one can extend their lifespan without having to kill other people.

Sorry. Misread what you said about Zathrian. But I'd call what he did do just as bad using a human (Or elven) sacrifice. YMMV.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And this made me wonder if you even know what basic rights are.

Why? There's no divine right in Ferelden, there's the Landsmeet, there's inheritance, and people do have rights in Ferelden.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are rights in Thedas. There are no basic rights applied to all Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Kossith. There are only the rights defined by your role in society. A King being top of the food chain with the most rights, next the noble, then Freehodlers, and so on and so forth. The mages do also have their own rights, defined by them being Mages, such as not being amde Tranquil after having passed the Harrowing.
Yes, rights exists in Thedas. No, basic rights don't exist in Thedas.

People in Ferelden don't have the same rights as we do, but they do have rights. Sten makes note of their capacity for self-determination when he contrasts the people in Ferelden with those living under the Qun.

... I give up trying to make you understand the idea of basic rights..

[TEWR]

Deztyn wrote...

So it's really just the terminology you don't like? I find that odd. But in fairness to the templars she might be the only case where things don't go catastrophic after a mage joins with a spirit (As far as we know.)

The terminology is a very strong factor in me disliking the Circle and the Chantry. There are a lot of things wrong with the regulation of mages: the terminology, the banning of magical research, the few rights given to them which is arguable if it's the appropriate amount considering, etc. If those things were fixed, even a little at a time, things would be better.

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

They should care. This was stuff that was only existent in fabled poetic script of the Chantry's teachings prior to Wynne and Anders. Any others were either undocumented, never happened, or forgotten on purpose.

A spirit possession may hold dangers too, but it is still a different possession. A demon possession destroys immediately, whereas a spirit possession requires a great deal to even start to go to that point. These key differences should be recorded for future Mages to study from. If there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons", which I don't really believe, then more study must be undertaken to find out.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It relates to the fact that you and Emperor were making sweeping generalizations on the last page about people who disagree with the two of you, and I didn't find the comments to be accurate. I'm saying mage supporters aren't always willing to excuse the bad behavior of some mages the reasons you specificy. Some people (including mages) do bad things, which is why it's been argued for there to be regulation, for there to be law and order, for repercussions to actions, for a law enforcement system in place. People aren't arguing for mages to have no regulation at all; rather, they're arguing for mages not to be dominated by an inhumane system that grants them no basic rights or freedoms.

LULZ. I was saying that for the most part mage supporters think "Bad" is not the default setting of all mages and Circle supporters tend to agree on that point. Sorry if that was too much of a sweeping generalization for you.

You were saying most mage supporters think templars = evil, and I was addressing that this isn't the case, especially when I've gotten the same response because many people think that when someone disagrees with the Chantry's method for the mages, they assume I hate the templars and think they're evil incarnate despite repeatedly addressing that not all templars are evil. 

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was arguing against what you were actually saying, because I read the comments on the prior page about what you and Emperor explicitly stated. And I addressed the different points you made, and I don't see the need to try to color a group of people who disagree with you as "hypocritical" when people have addressed that mages can do bad things, but are arguing against (in Michael Hamilton's words) a "dictatorship" over the mages.

You're welcome to provide all the emoticons that you want in retort to what I said, but I don't think what you said was fair or accurate.

My only argument on the previous page was that it's not fair to color all templars with the same brush, that  MANY mage supporters do that, and MOST Circle supporters don't do the same to mages. If you DON'T think all templars and clergy are evil, murdering, rapists or are actively supporting murder and rape--good. That means I wasn't talking about YOU.

Many mage supporters don't do that, they address that they see a problem with the Chantry controlled Circles, and want an alternative. That alternative varies from person to person, but saying "most mage supporters" see templars as evil is incorrect. People simply think there needs to be an alternative to the current system.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

... I give up trying to make you understand the idea of basic rights..

Thank you. I was hoping to avoid a discussion about natural and legal rights and human rights with you, especially given how you think I must hate all templars because I don't agree with the Chantry controlled Circles.

[OldMan91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And this made me wonder if you even know what basic rights are.

Why? There's no divine right in Ferelden, there's the Landsmeet, there's inheritance, and people do have rights in Ferelden.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are rights in Thedas. There are no basic rights applied to all Humans/Elves/Dwarves/Kossith. There are only the rights defined by your role in society. A King being top of the food chain with the most rights, next the noble, then Freehodlers, and so on and so forth. The mages do also have their own rights, defined by them being Mages, such as not being amde Tranquil after having passed the Harrowing.
Yes, rights exists in Thedas. No, basic rights don't exist in Thedas.

People in Ferelden don't have the same rights as we do, but they do have rights. Sten makes note of their capacity for self-determination when he contrasts the people in Ferelden with those living under the Qun.

... I give up trying to make you understand the idea of basic rights..

Define "basic rights".

Edit

Thank you. I was hoping to avoid a discussion about natural and legal rights and human rights with you, especially given how you think I must hate all templars because I don't agree with the Chantry controlled Circles.

Oh, you've ninjad me. 

Modifié par OldMan91, 10 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[Deztyn]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wrongness.

It amazes me that not only do you continue to twist my words, but also claim to know what I meant better than I do. Please stop talking to me now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

They should care. This was stuff that was only existent in fabled poetic script of the Chantry's teachings prior to Wynne and Anders. Any others were either undocumented, never happened, or forgotten on purpose.

A spirit possession may hold dangers too, but it is still a different possession. A demon possession destroys immediately, whereas a spirit possession requires a great deal to even start to go to that point. These key differences should be recorded for future Mages to study from. If there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons", which I don't really believe, then more study must be undertaken to find out.

That is incorrect. A demon possession does not immediately erase the hosts "self". Just look at Conner. He was possessed by a desire demon, while he had a strong desire to cure his father.
A spirit possession only require the person it possesses to not feel the spirits token emotion, to go awry. Anders had no intention of bringing justice, all he wanted was vengeance against the Circle. Which led to all kinds of crazy. Can you imagine what would happen if a spirit of Faith were to possess an unfaithful? Or a spirit of Valor possess a coward. The only redeeming quality is that spirits have no desire to cross the veil, and thus such possession are often forced (like Justice's first possession of a corpse). And then it is only redeeming because, then it is a rare form of possession.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 10 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

They should care. This was stuff that was only existent in fabled poetic script of the Chantry's teachings prior to Wynne and Anders. Any others were either undocumented, never happened, or forgotten on purpose.

A spirit possession may hold dangers too, but it is still a different possession. A demon possession destroys immediately, whereas a spirit possession requires a great deal to even start to go to that point. These key differences should be recorded for future Mages to study from. If there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons", which I don't really believe, then more study must be undertaken to find out.

That is incorrect. A demon possession does not immediately erase the hosts "self". Just look at Conner. He was possessed by a desire demon, while he had a strong desire to cure his father.
A spirit possession only require the person it possesses to not feel the spirits token emotion, to go awry. Anders had no intention of bringing justice, all he wanted was vengeance against the Circle. Which led to all kinds of crazy. Can you imagine what would happen if a spirit of Faith were to possess an unfaithful? Or a spirit of Valor possess a coward. The only redeeming quality is that spirits have no desire to cross the veil, and thus such possession are often forced (like Justice's first possession of a corpse). And then it is only redeeming because, then it is a rare form of possession.

Did I say it destroys the self immediately? No. I said it destroys immediately. Meaning causes destruction, like Connor did when he was possessed to the entire village. And Marethari said that the soul is scarred, wounded like an animal. So Connor may still have his "self", but he is forever damaged as a result. But, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

And then kills you on the second attempt

Justice went into Anders because they were friends and saw a common goal, whereas Faith knew Wynne was a woman of great faith. It was only Anders' anger at the Templars that drove Justice to Vengeance, but that doesn't mean he didn't want Justice. Vengeance is the darker side of the idea of Justice. Spirits don't just go into the first body they see. To suggest that they even would is folly. So Valor would only, if it ever did, possess a man who has great valor. NOT a coward.

[Rifneno]

Deztyn wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wrongness.

It amazes me that not only do you continue to twist my words, but also claim to know what I meant better than I do. Please stop talking to me now.

Ditto, buddy.

[LobselVith8]

Deztyn wrote...

It amazes me that not only do you continue to twist my words, but also claim to know what I meant better than I do. Please stop talking to me now.

Didn't you already say you were commenting on many people who support the mages? How am I twisting your words when you've already stated that that's precisely what you were doing? I disagree with what you said, that's all.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[borelocin]

The Chantry and it's Templars are not "evil".
 
They are a well-intentioned militaristic theocracy who feel that the entire world will be better off if they are converted to their religious beliefs or killed so they cannot pose a potential threat to the adherents of their religion.
The problem is those silly people who can't see they would be better off doing as "the order dictates"

Modifié par borelocin, 10 avril 2011 - 10:02 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

They should care. This was stuff that was only existent in fabled poetic script of the Chantry's teachings prior to Wynne and Anders. Any others were either undocumented, never happened, or forgotten on purpose.

A spirit possession may hold dangers too, but it is still a different possession. A demon possession destroys immediately, whereas a spirit possession requires a great deal to even start to go to that point. These key differences should be recorded for future Mages to study from. If there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons", which I don't really believe, then more study must be undertaken to find out.

That is incorrect. A demon possession does not immediately erase the hosts "self". Just look at Conner. He was possessed by a desire demon, while he had a strong desire to cure his father.
A spirit possession only require the person it possesses to not feel the spirits token emotion, to go awry. Anders had no intention of bringing justice, all he wanted was vengeance against the Circle. Which led to all kinds of crazy. Can you imagine what would happen if a spirit of Faith were to possess an unfaithful? Or a spirit of Valor possess a coward. The only redeeming quality is that spirits have no desire to cross the veil, and thus such possession are often forced (like Justice's first possession of a corpse). And then it is only redeeming because, then it is a rare form of possession.

Did I say it destroys the self immediately? No. I said it destroys immediately. Meaning causes destruction, like Connor did when he was possessed to the entire village. And Marethari said that the soul is scarred, wounded like an animal. So Connor may still have his "self", but he is forever damaged as a result. But, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

And then kills you on the second attempt

Justice went into Anders because they were friends and saw a common goal, whereas Faith knew Wynne was a woman of great faith. It was only Anders' anger at the Templars that drove Justice to Vengeance, but that doesn't mean he didn't want Justice. Vengeance is the darker side of the idea of Justice. Spirits don't just go into the first body they see. To suggest that they even would is folly. So Valor would only, if it ever did, possess a man who has great valor. NOT a coward.

But a demon possession does not neccesarily destroy immediately. It may have motives to, but it doesn't just go "Raaaaagh! Destroy!". It follows its nature. An abomination of rage would probably be destroying things immediately. But an abomination of desire may find the nearest brothel and go to town, it will all depend on the individual demon. The more complex the emotion the demon embodies, the more complex an abomination will be created.

[TEWR]

And yet we've seen many Desire Abominations that go "RAAAGH!!!!!". The Circle Tower had many and Connor IS a Desire Abomination. And he went all "BLAAAAGH!!!!" on the townsfolk of Redclifffe.

And if it's following its nature, then it has destroyed the self of the person, because the nature that's being followed is the one of the demon's.

It's possible for fragments of the self to still linger, but we've only seen a few cases of that. And you're saying they shouldn't care? They shouldn't care to see if they can reverse a possession of a mage that didn't accept the demon (i.e. Connor accepted, so he could be saved.)? You're saying they shouldn't do more magical research to find key differences that could ultimately save more mage lives?

Seems like a content little world where no one dies and everyone farts unicorns and rainbows.


Why should we care about curing psychotic disorders or even treating them? Let's leave them to their fate. It's not like researching these types of things could potentially cure them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[Nimrodell]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

They should care. This was stuff that was only existent in fabled poetic script of the Chantry's teachings prior to Wynne and Anders. Any others were either undocumented, never happened, or forgotten on purpose.

A spirit possession may hold dangers too, but it is still a different possession. A demon possession destroys immediately, whereas a spirit possession requires a great deal to even start to go to that point. These key differences should be recorded for future Mages to study from. If there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons", which I don't really believe, then more study must be undertaken to find out.

That is incorrect. A demon possession does not immediately erase the hosts "self". Just look at Conner. He was possessed by a desire demon, while he had a strong desire to cure his father.
A spirit possession only require the person it possesses to not feel the spirits token emotion, to go awry. Anders had no intention of bringing justice, all he wanted was vengeance against the Circle. Which led to all kinds of crazy. Can you imagine what would happen if a spirit of Faith were to possess an unfaithful? Or a spirit of Valor possess a coward. The only redeeming quality is that spirits have no desire to cross the veil, and thus such possession are often forced (like Justice's first possession of a corpse). And then it is only redeeming because, then it is a rare form of possession.

Not accurate, Anders didn't seek vengeance when he allowed Justice to merge with him - he clearly states that and al he says is confirmed before in Awakening (I heard that banter between those two million times 'cause of glitch). Anders was looking for justice, that's all... one may seek justice and in the same time be very angry. Those that are content usually don't posses fervent need for such strong emotion or better said ideal as justice. People can discuss about such grand ideals and have scholarly attitude that is calm, and full of educated, benevolent thoughts... but tis just not like that with true need, feeling and understand what justice is for one that seeks it. Justice and vengeance are two faces of one for many and it is even seen in DA itself... remember Lady Vasilia in Gauntlet? Remember what she says? I am justice, I am vengeance - and for her that was ultimate truth, 'cause her way of life and the way of life of her people was threatened - Andrastians percieve her act as vengeance, but  she saw it as justice. Tis so easy to judge what's just and what is not from a comfy chair, but majority changes attitude when confronted with something that is effecting them directly, then even understanding of justice changes. And that's the strangest thing when it comes to party banters, only Isabela confronts Anders with true challenge when it comes to understanding what justice is. Even Daelish quest with Danayla's daughter on the Wounded Coast shows that there is a thin line between justice and vengeance. So, no, Anders wasn't seeking for vnegeance, he was actually asking for justice, but unfortunately, his own strong emotions (since he did feel the sting of mage stigma) perverted that. As my people say - road to Hell is paved by good intentions.

[TEWR]

Nimrodell wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emperor Sahlertz wrote...

Should they care? Something as strong and powerful as Justice possessed Anders, and was perverted into something as terrible and selfish as Vengeance only because the host was too angry. Faith was lucky to possess someone as Wynne who was strong in her own belief and thus matched nicely with what Faith embodies. But if Wynne ever had a crisis of faith, the spirit within her may be perverted the same way as Justice was.

They should care. This was stuff that was only existent in fabled poetic script of the Chantry's teachings prior to Wynne and Anders. Any others were either undocumented, never happened, or forgotten on purpose.

A spirit possession may hold dangers too, but it is still a different possession. A demon possession destroys immediately, whereas a spirit possession requires a great deal to even start to go to that point. These key differences should be recorded for future Mages to study from. If there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons", which I don't really believe, then more study must be undertaken to find out.

That is incorrect. A demon possession does not immediately erase the hosts "self". Just look at Conner. He was possessed by a desire demon, while he had a strong desire to cure his father.
A spirit possession only require the person it possesses to not feel the spirits token emotion, to go awry. Anders had no intention of bringing justice, all he wanted was vengeance against the Circle. Which led to all kinds of crazy. Can you imagine what would happen if a spirit of Faith were to possess an unfaithful? Or a spirit of Valor possess a coward. The only redeeming quality is that spirits have no desire to cross the veil, and thus such possession are often forced (like Justice's first possession of a corpse). And then it is only redeeming because, then it is a rare form of possession.

Not accurate, Anders didn't seek vengeance when he allowed Justice to merge with him - he clearly states that and al he says is confirmed before in Awakening (I heard that banter between those two million times 'cause of glitch). Anders was looking for justice, that's all... one may seek justice and in the same time be very angry. Those that are content usually don't posses fervent need for such strong emotion or better said ideal as justice. People can discuss about such grand ideals and have scholarly attitude that is calm, and full of educated, benevolent thoughts... but tis just not like that with true need, feeling and understand what justice is for one that seeks it. Justice and vengeance are two faces of one for many and it is even seen in DA itself... remember Lady Vasilia in Gauntlet? Remember what she says? I am justice, I am vengeance - and for her that was ultimate truth, 'cause her way of life and the way of life of her people was threatened - Andrastians percieve her act as vengeance, but  she saw it as justice. Tis so easy to judge what's just and what is not from a comfy chair, but majority changes attitude when confronted with something that is effecting them directly, then even understanding of justice changes. And that's the strangest thing when it comes to party banters, only Isabela confronts Anders with true challenge when it comes to understanding what justice is. Even Daelish quest with Danayla's daughter on the Wounded Coast shows that there is a thin line between justice and vengeance. So, no, Anders wasn't seeking for vnegeance, he was actually asking for justice, but unfortunately, his own strong emotions (since he did feel the sting of mage stigma) perverted that. As my people say - road to Hell is paved by good intentions.

THIS.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And yet we've seen many Desire Abominations that go "RAAAGH!!!!!". The Circle Tower had many and Connor IS a Desire Abomination. And he went all "BLAAAAGH!!!!" on the townsfolk of Redclifffe.

And if it's following its nature, then it has destroyed the self of the person, because the nature that's being followed is the one of the demon's.

It's possible for fragments of the self to still linger, but we've only seen a few cases of that. And you're saying they shouldn't care? They shouldn't care to see if they can reverse a possession of a mage that didn't accept the demon (i.e. Connor accepted, so he could be saved.)? You're saying they shouldn't do more magical research to find key differences that could ultimately save more mage lives?

Seems like a content little world where no one dies and everyone farts unicorns and rainbows.


Why should we care about curing psychotic disorders or even treating them? Let's leave them to their fate. It's not like researching these types of things could potentially cure them.

Those desire abominations could have had a desire for violence or any such thing, or they could simply be fighting for survival. The desire abomination in Redcliffe had a desire for power, and went out to conquer the world, starting with Redcliffe. And the abomination itself did not go "Blaaarghraaagh!" (), but rather sat back in the keep and sent out its armies.
If reversion of possession was possible some mage would have figured it out in those few millenia there have been organized magic.
And I'm saying they shouldn't care wether or not it is a demon or spirit possessing a person. Just kill it and be done. There is no such thing as a good spirit.

Nimrodell wrote...
Not accurate, Anders didn't seek vengeance when he allowed Justice to merge with him - he clearly states that and al he says is confirmed before in Awakening (I heard that banter between those two million times 'cause of glitch). Anders was looking for justice, that's all... one may seek justice and in the same time be very angry. Those that are content usually don't posses fervent need for such strong emotion or better said ideal as justice. People can discuss about such grand ideals and have scholarly attitude that is calm, and full of educated, benevolent thoughts... but tis just not like that with true need, feeling and understand what justice is for one that seeks it. Justice and vengeance are two faces of one for many and it is even seen in DA itself... remember Lady Vasilia in Gauntlet? Remember what she says? I am justice, I am vengeance - and for her that was ultimate truth, 'cause her way of life and the way of life of her people was threatened - Andrastians percieve her act as vengeance, but  she saw it as justice. Tis so easy to judge what's just and what is not from a comfy chair, but majority changes attitude when confronted with something that is effecting them directly, then even understanding of justice changes. And that's the strangest thing when it comes to party banters, only Isabela confronts Anders with true challenge when it comes to understanding what justice is. Even Daelish quest with Danayla's daughter on the Wounded Coast shows that there is a thin line between justice and vengeance. So, no, Anders wasn't seeking for vnegeance, he was actually asking for justice, but unfortunately, his own strong emotions (since he did feel the sting of mage stigma) perverted that. As my people say - road to Hell is paved by good intentions.

If you seek justice while being as biased as Anders it is not justice you seek. You may try and fool yourself that it is justice, but it isn't. What Anders sought was the freedom of all mages, not justice. He may believe it to be the just thing, but it can't be as justice as a concept can't exist in our world. Which is consequentially the reason why the merging with a spirit of Justice is always bound to fail. Justice can exist only as an idea.

[TEWR]

Those desire abominations could have had a desire for violence or any such thing, or they could simply be fighting for survival.

Or they could just be mindless Abominations bent on destroying everything!

*gives thumbs up while making this face *

The desire abomination in Redcliffe had a desire for power, and went out to conquer the world, starting with Redcliffe. And the abomination itself did not go "Blaaarghraaagh!" (), but rather sat back in the keep and sent out its armies.

which is the lazy equivalent of going BLAAARGH!!!! It's still going BLAAARGH!!!! though. And spirits don't die. They return to the Fade.

If reversion of possession was possible some mage would have figured it out in those few millenia there have been organized magic.

And even so, the Chantry has placed a ban on magical research. Anders says that the Tevinters are the only ones who have been studying how to reverse possession. Wynne says the Minrathous has an extensive magical library overflowing with books. Even so, it could be decades, let alone centuries, before any substantial discoveries are made.

And I'm saying they shouldn't care wether or not it is a demon or spirit possessing a person. Just kill it and be done. There is no such thing as a good spirit.

I agree with the last sentence, but if you were a mage you'd be singing a different tune on the "Just kill it already". Magical research could help discover how to reverse a possession. And that would be far better than just killing it. It means more lives could be saved. If an Abomination kills 70 people, killing the Abomination means you've killed the mage too. That makes 71 deaths. But if you can reverse the possession, then you have saved the mage's life. And the death toll remains at 70. While still horrifying, 70 deaths is better than 71.


SIDE NOTE: Saying "going 'BLAAARGH!!!!'" is really funny to me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 11:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Those desire abominations could have had a desire for violence or any such thing, or they could simply be fighting for survival.

Or they could just be mindless Abominations bent on destroying everything!

*gives thumbs up while making this face *

Then why don't they tear eachother apart, if all they want is destruction? No, an abomination from demon possession is the same as possession from a spirit.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The desire abomination in Redcliffe had a desire for power, and went out to conquer the world, starting with Redcliffe. And the abomination itself did not go "Blaaarghraaagh!" (), but rather sat back in the keep and sent out its armies.

which is the lazy equivalent of going BLAAARGH!!!! It's still going BLAAARGH!!!! though. And spirits don't die. They return to the Fade.

Didn't Justice say that he didn't know waht would happen if he were to die in the physical world (in Awakening)? Anyway, I fail to see why you brought that point up. What I was trying to say is that the abomination in Redcliffe had a desire to rule, not destruction, which is why it did not go on a rampage, but let its minions try and conquer the world.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If reversion of possession was possible some mage would have figured it out in those few millenia there have been organized magic.

And even so, the Chantry has placed a ban on magical research. Anders says that the Tevinters are the only ones who have been studying how to reverse possession. Wynne says the Minrathous has an extensive magical library overflowing with books. Even so, it could be decades, let alone centuries, before any substantial discoveries are made.

But tehy already know how to reverse one form of possession. The form of possession where the host has willingly let the demon enter (which is also why I know Anders was ****ting us, with his gather quest). It is the forceful possession which is irreversible, as any imprint of the mage is gone.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I'm saying they shouldn't care wether or not it is a demon or spirit possessing a person. Just kill it and be done. There is no such thing as a good spirit.

I agree with the last sentence, but if you were a mage you'd be singing a different tune on the "Just kill it already". Magical research could help discover how to reverse a possession. And that would be far better than just killing it. It means more lives could be saved. If an Abomination kills 70 people, killing the Abomination means you've killed the mage too. That makes 71 deaths. But if you can reverse the possession, then you have saved the mage's life. And the death toll remains at 70. While still horrifying, 70 deaths is better than 71.

I would kill the mage right then and there for being stupid enough to let himself become possessed  And the people would want him dead as well, so even if you did exorcise him, he would probably still be executed.

[TEWR]

Then why don't they tear eachother apart, if all they want is destruction? No, an abomination from demon possession is the same as possession from a spirit.

Ok maybe not mindless per se. That was a poor choice of words, but they lack compassion and whatnot. They care only for destruction. And last I checked, demons don't try to kill other demons.

Didn't Justice say that he didn't know waht would happen if he were to die in the physical world (in Awakening)? Anyway, I fail to see why you brought that point up. What I was trying to say is that the abomination in Redcliffe had a desire to rule, not destruction, which is why it did not go on a rampage, but let its minions try and conquer the world.

This is coming from a spirit who has never once crossed the Veil before. Whereas magical research when it was allowed has indicated that they don't die. They just return to the Fade.

But tehy already know how to reverse one form of possession. The form of possession where the host has willingly let the demon enter (which is also why I know Anders was ****ting us, with his gather quest). It is the forceful possession which is irreversible, as any imprint of the mage is gone.

Yes we know how to reverse willing possessions. But we don't know how to reverse forceful possession. Irving and Jowan may say it's irreversible, but they're operating off of a very limited amount of knowledge because the Chantry forbids magical research. Even Avernus tells you that they do. Maybe it is irreversible, but by forbidding research you'll never really know.

I would kill the mage right then and there for being stupid enough to let himself become possessed And the people would want him dead as well, so even if you did exorcise him, he would probably still be executed.

If you were a Templar ( I went from "if you were a mage" to "templar". What's next? "If you were a dire bunny"?) your duty is to protect the mages as well as the citizens. Now maybe your duty would call for his execution because he's been possessed once already, but you also have another option....

The Aeonar. The Mage Prison, among other things. Here is where all mage criminals are sent.

Point is, I believe they need to do magical research on everything magic related, even if it's regulated. What you believe I don't know.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2011 - 11:52 .

[Realmzmaster]

Actually Hunger demons do try to eat other demons or spirits according to one of the codices. They are simply not successful. Also more powerful demons control lesser demons. One can assume that the more powerful demon has a way of punishing and rewarding the demons under their control. That punishment could be termination of the lesser demons existance.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Aeonar. The Mage Prison, among other things. Here is where all mage criminals are sent.

Bit off topic, but I've been wondering...  is it just me, or was the whole Aeonar thing possibly just a reference to BG2's Spellhold?  Seems odd that we never hear another mention of it.  Come to think of it, Lily looks a bit like Imoen too.

[Melca36]

If Anders was really an abomination wouldn't have he accepted the actions of blood mages? Mages become abominations because they let demons in.

So in essence Anders was not really an abomination since Justice was not a demon to begin with.