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Was Anders Justified (No Pun intended)


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#1651
mesmerizedish

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David Gaider wrote...

Why? Would Kirkwall falling be a good thing in any instance? Would it be better if she said "Kirkwall must not be allowed to fall... but if it falls by magic, I guess that would be okay."?


I know this is ten days old, but maybe someone important will see it.

Leliana's line there bothered me, as well. She doesn't say "If Kirkwall falls by magic," she says "If Kirkwall falls to magic." The way I understood it (and my interpretation could be wrong, but I think her lines could have been written more carefully in that instance) is that she's setting up all of "magic" in general as the enemy. It's not just this single extremist faction of a single fraternity within the Circle, but the entirety of magic that's assaulting Kirkwall and the Chantry.

#1652
TEWR

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If Leliana goes from "happy lovable Leliana who loves everybody unless they're a b!tch/douche" to "Douchebag Leliana who hates all mages and believes Chantry lies that magic is a curse", I'm going to be severely pissed off. Then what's her opinion of the Mage Warden who romanced her? Of Wynne, whom she admires? How she says the Maker gives everyone gifts, magic among them?

#1653
Foryou

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bump :P

#1654
TEWR

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Foryou wrote...

bump :P


I see your point and agree wholeheartedly.

#1655
Rifneno

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Foryou wrote...

bump :P


Necromancer!  To the Gallows with you!

#1656
The Angry One

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I remember when thread necromancers had some imagination.

#1657
TEWR

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The Angry One wrote...

I remember when thread necromancers had some imagination.



like when you sew together different body parts of several women with a bunch of thread and then cast a forbidden necromancy spell to make a Frankenstein's monster-esque creature that oddly enough still has the soul of this construct's head?

#1658
berelinde

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David Gaider said...

They are definitely not free. In Kirkwall, they are tantamount to prisoners.

berelinde responds...

And this is better than slavery how, precisely? Slaves, at least, have some value. Prisoners have none. In 12 out of 14 EU nations, prisoners are deferred from giving blood to the Red Cross because rape is assumed to have occurred within 24 hours of incarceration. That does not say much for prisoner rights, if they cannot even secure the right to choose their sexual partners.

Maybe the idea was to present an area of moral ambiguity, but if that was the case, it might have been a better idea to downplay all the themes of templar abuse of mages. Does Alrik really have to threaten Ella the way he does? Does that nameless Act 2 tranquil really have to be so brainwashed when she defends Alrik against her one-time lover? While those examples stand, you'll never convince any thinking female that templars are anything other than opportunistic monsters. Which is a shame, because Ser Otto in DA:O did a wonderful job convincing folks that templars were selfless in the defense of everyman against the threat of demons.

I weep for how far honorable templars, and there must be some, have fallen.

#1659
Viyu

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I think that the mother was trying to be a mediator. She made their lives no better and the irony is that Meredith can squeeze the mages because she will not be sullied by maybes, but the mages shouldn't sully themselves in the idea that "maybe" she won't kill them? "Maybe" she won't cast them all off as blood mages and abominations without probable cause. I didn't kill Anders. It's my motto that if you put me through this hell you are going to help me fight to fix it to lessen the chance of me having to die to fix it for you.

#1660
TEWR

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berelinde wrote...

David Gaider said...

They are definitely not free. In Kirkwall, they are tantamount to prisoners.

berelinde responds...

And this is better than slavery how, precisely? Slaves, at least, have some value. Prisoners have none. In 12 out of 14 EU nations, prisoners are deferred from giving blood to the Red Cross because rape is assumed to have occurred within 24 hours of incarceration. That does not say much for prisoner rights, if they cannot even secure the right to choose their sexual partners.

Maybe the idea was to present an area of moral ambiguity, but if that was the case, it might have been a better idea to downplay all the themes of templar abuse of mages. Does Alrik really have to threaten Ella the way he does? Does that nameless Act 2 tranquil really have to be so brainwashed when she defends Alrik against her one-time lover? While those examples stand, you'll never convince any thinking female that templars are anything other than opportunistic monsters. Which is a shame, because Ser Otto in DA:O did a wonderful job convincing folks that templars were selfless in the defense of everyman against the threat of demons.

I weep for how far honorable templars, and there must be some, have fallen.



I wrote in another thread that the problem with the Chantry is that they recruit only those who have a fervent and, often enough, fanatical devotion to the Maker. And this is the problem because they're not recruiting people who care about the populus, who want to help the citizens, or who treat everyone as they should be treated. They're recruiting people who go "The Maker's glory will rain down and consume the 'heathens' just as the flames took Andraste!"

Very rarely do the people who believe in the Maker and are honorable to the people get recruited. DA:O's Templars that we saw were among those, though we didn't see much of them to draw definite conclusions on their personas, but enough to lump them into the category of decent people.

http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Templars

In that codex entry, it mentions that a flawless moral center is a, and I quote, "secondary concern". I would think that should be the primary concern, but faith takes priority over everything else. This is more evidence to me that the Chantry is corrupt, no matter how much pious action and niceties they put on to shroud the truth. That's not to say every member of the Chantry is corrupt (Elthina wasn't), but as a whole the Chantry establishment is corrupt.

DA2 shows that most of Kirkwall's Templars are power-mad and corrupt. The only good ones we saw were Thrask, Cullen, and that kid we saved from Tarohne (there may be more, but those are all I can think of).

And honestly, this ties into Anders' being justified because he saw the bigger picture. What he did wasn't an assault on Kirkwall's Chantry or Elthina. It was an assault at a religion filled to the brim with hypocrisy. So in my book, he is justified and he should live. Poetic justice. While those people who were killed do deserve justice, that can wait. It's enough for the time being that Anders wanted to die for what he did, not to be a martyr but to give them justice (though he may have become one. But who's to say really?).

#1661
EmperorSahlertz

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The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.

#1662
LobselVith8

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.


Which is why we have Knight-Captain Cullen saying mages shouldn't be treated like people.

#1663
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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.


you're not the first to call me that.


And I realize that's a problem too. But you can't recruit people who are ruthless just because they believe in the Maker, because then they will abuse the power you've given them.

But I think if push came to shove, the good Templars would recognize what they had to do over what they want to do. Like with Gregoir. He didn't want to annul the entire Circle because there may have been survivors, people he was friendly with, but he realized that the greater threat (the Abominations and Blood Mages) needed to be taken care of. Unfortunately, he lacked the numbers to follow through with it (which is where we come in)

#1664
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LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.


Which is why we have Knight-Captain Cullen saying mages shouldn't be treated like people.


I can't really fault Cullen for thinking that. He was a survivor of torture, and torturing a man really ****s with his mind. Ultimately, he did the right thing, even if many mages were slain prior to it.

Was he wrong? Yes. Was his view understandable considering what he went through in the Ferelden Circle? Yes.

#1665
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.


you're not the first to call me that.


And I realize that's a problem too. But you can't recruit people who are ruthless just because they believe in the Maker, because then they will abuse the power you've given them.

But I think if push came to shove, the good Templars would recognize what they had to do over what they want to do. Like with Gregoir. He didn't want to annul the entire Circle because there may have been survivors, people he was friendly with, but he realized that the greater threat (the Abominations and Blood Mages) needed to be taken care of. Unfortunately, he lacked the numbers to follow through with it (which is where we come in)

Ruthlesness is not neccesarily a desired trait. Just a devotion to the maker. They can let the kindest person in the world become a Templar, as long as he won't question an order from the Grand Cleric/Knight-Commander (ie. divine mandate).

#1666
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.


you're not the first to call me that.


And I realize that's a problem too. But you can't recruit people who are ruthless just because they believe in the Maker, because then they will abuse the power you've given them.

But I think if push came to shove, the good Templars would recognize what they had to do over what they want to do. Like with Gregoir. He didn't want to annul the entire Circle because there may have been survivors, people he was friendly with, but he realized that the greater threat (the Abominations and Blood Mages) needed to be taken care of. Unfortunately, he lacked the numbers to follow through with it (which is where we come in)


Ruthlesness is not neccesarily a desired trait. Just a devotion to the maker. They can let the kindest person in the world become a Templar, as long as he won't question an order from the Grand Cleric/Knight-Commander (ie. divine mandate).


that's the problem. Faith in the maker comes before a flawless moral center, which as I said above was a "secondary concern" to the Chantry. Which makes it seem like that they care more about faith than they do about anything else. Everything else is just "Oh we don't really care if you'll rape various mages. You have a strong belief in the Maker so you're in."

#1667
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The problem with that TEWR (you better like acronyms), is that a Templar who actually truely cares about the mages, who connects with them, and befriends them, may not be able to do, what must be done, when the order comes.


you're not the first to call me that.


And I realize that's a problem too. But you can't recruit people who are ruthless just because they believe in the Maker, because then they will abuse the power you've given them.

But I think if push came to shove, the good Templars would recognize what they had to do over what they want to do. Like with Gregoir. He didn't want to annul the entire Circle because there may have been survivors, people he was friendly with, but he realized that the greater threat (the Abominations and Blood Mages) needed to be taken care of. Unfortunately, he lacked the numbers to follow through with it (which is where we come in)


Ruthlesness is not neccesarily a desired trait. Just a devotion to the maker. They can let the kindest person in the world become a Templar, as long as he won't question an order from the Grand Cleric/Knight-Commander (ie. divine mandate).


that's the problem. Faith in the maker comes before a flawless moral center, which as I said above was a "secondary concern" to the Chantry. Which makes it seem like that they care more about faith than they do about anything else. Everything else is just "Oh we don't really care if you'll rape various mages. You have a strong belief in the Maker so you're in."

I don't think they let the obvious rapists in, just becase he is a devout Andrastians. They ideally looks for the best from both worlds. A man with a flawless moral center, and an unshakeable faith in the Maker, is the most desireable. A man like him could be counted on always doing the right thing, and do what must be done when the time comes.

#1668
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Ser Alrik. Dude was obviously ****ed up in the head long before he joined.


I'd say that some slip through. At any rate, faith should be the secondary concern, not the primary.

#1669
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ser Alrik. Dude was obviously ****ed up in the head long before he joined.


I'd say that some slip through. At any rate, faith should be the secondary concern, not the primary.

Was he now? For all we know he was a kind man, who had never shown any quirks towards the sadistic. Yes of course some slip through, they always do, even in our own world, with advanced screening tests and what have you. To want anything more from the Chantry is unreasonable.
And I don't think faith should be the most important part either, nor do I think it actually is, it is their sense of duty which really matters.

#1670
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ser Alrik. Dude was obviously ****ed up in the head long before he joined.


I'd say that some slip through. At any rate, faith should be the secondary concern, not the primary.

Was he now? For all we know he was a kind man, who had never shown any quirks towards the sadistic. Yes of course some slip through, they always do, even in our own world, with advanced screening tests and what have you. To want anything more from the Chantry is unreasonable.
And I don't think faith should be the most important part either, nor do I think it actually is, it is their sense of duty which really matters.


I don't think sadistic tendencies just pop up randomly overnight. It's not like Ser Alrik went "Boy I do love these mages!" one day and then the next went "I hate these mages! I want them Tranquil and tortured! And then...." 

They're mental disorders. Something that's in the DNA.

Either way, at least you and I agree that faith being the most important factor is wrong.

#1671
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ser Alrik. Dude was obviously ****ed up in the head long before he joined.


I'd say that some slip through. At any rate, faith should be the secondary concern, not the primary.

Was he now? For all we know he was a kind man, who had never shown any quirks towards the sadistic. Yes of course some slip through, they always do, even in our own world, with advanced screening tests and what have you. To want anything more from the Chantry is unreasonable.
And I don't think faith should be the most important part either, nor do I think it actually is, it is their sense of duty which really matters.


I don't think sadistic tendencies just pop up randomly overnight. It's not like Ser Alrik went "Boy I do love these mages!" one day and then the next went "I hate these mages! I want them Tranquil and tortured! And then...." 

They're mental disorders. Something that's in the DNA.

Either way, at least you and I agree that faith being the most important factor is wrong.

When you put it like that, sure he was rotten, but I doubt he even knew it himself.
But halleluja, someone aggreed with me on this forum Image IPB

#1672
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...


When you put it like that, sure he was rotten, but I doubt he even knew it himself.


Sadly that's all that we have to operate off of for the time being. Or most likely forever because of those secretive, evil developers....

But halleluja, someone aggreed with me on this forum Image IPB


It's a rare occurence that two people will actually agree. About as rare as seeing a female KossithImage IPB

#1673
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


When you put it like that, sure he was rotten, but I doubt he even knew it himself.


Sadly that's all that we have to operate off of for the time being. Or most likely forever because of those secretive, evil developers....

But halleluja, someone aggreed with me on this forum Image IPB


It's a rare occurence that two people will actually agree. About as rare as seeing a female KossithImage IPB

Or the elusive female dwarf, or the Genlock sasquatchImage IPB

#1674
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


When you put it like that, sure he was rotten, but I doubt he even knew it himself.


Sadly that's all that we have to operate off of for the time being. Or most likely forever because of those secretive, evil developers....

But halleluja, someone aggreed with me on this forum Image IPB


It's a rare occurence that two people will actually agree. About as rare as seeing a female KossithImage IPB

Or the elusive female dwarf, or the Genlock sasquatchImage IPB


I'm surprised that it even happens.

I'm also trying to imagine a Genlock Bigfoot now. Bioware, make it so!

http://t0.gstatic.co...9Kk1tGK-CZA&t=1

#1675
Darkrider296

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The Angry One wrote...

Terrorism is never justified.
Also, he took responsibility because he developed a martyr complex, he thinks he will be killed for it and that everybody will remember his name as the great mage liberator.. rather than another in a long line of self destructive abominations.


What about the terroism in WW2 by resistance groups against the ****'s, is that not justified? If you bring Anders to the Gallows there is some MAJORLY screwed stuff going on there. He tried to be reasonable (trying to see if he can talk to Cleric in Act II) but after a while he hit the wall. Too many people wanted to uphold the status quo. Anders has lived a constant life of oppresion was sick of 'moderate' reform crap being put forth. The Templars by and large are zealots who will not loosen any of their power (Plus I'll never understand the love for Cullen that many fans have). Thedas is in need of an Earth shaking event so that eyes can be opened, whether people like it or not :devil: