1927 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Beerfish wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


It's not.  Templars no matter how high ranking are not allowed to unilaterially declare a rite of anullment.  That is a deliberate check and balance by the Chantry to keep the Templars by abusing this most absolute final solution.  KC Gregoire explains it quite well in DAO as does Wynne.  Meridith's actions were blatently illegal.  The problem is that other than the Champion, no one has the stones to call her on it (and hasn't for over a decade...the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).  The templars for the most part are just as frightened of her as the mages.

If you talk with Knight Captain Cullen (if you side with the Templars), he openly admits that he has dire doubts about the necessity and legality of Meridith's actions, but there is no one for him to turn to.

-Polaris

So, after the chantry was blown up by Anders the templars are not allowed to invoke annulment?

Also you will have to point out to me where is says they cannot invoke annulment?  They had to ask for it in DAO but I never saw the rule sheet that says they can't do it under certain circumstances.

Gregoire says it in DAO and Wynne concurs.  Templars are a parallel order within the Chantry.  Templars do not and never have had the unilateral authority to declare a rite of annulement.  They are given extensive latitude short of that.  Knight Captain Cullen (hardly a friend of mages) openly questions both the necessity and legality of the Rite in this case, and if Cullen questions it, then you know that Meridith has gone over the deep end.

This is done in part to prevent the Templars from coercing and coopting the mages as an army to take over the Chantry.

-Polaris

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris is right about Meredith being completely out of control and engaged in widespread illegality. Whether that actually justifies the rest of his arguments like he thinks it does is a different matter.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish, it's explicitly stated that the Rite of Annulment is given solely by the Grand Cleric, and that's why Knight-Commander Greagoir was waiting for word from Denerim during the incident with Uldred.

Indeed, and in the specific case of Kirkwell, that in the absence of the Grand Cleric, Meridith could only legally confine the mages and ask for the Annulment from the Divine herself....next up in the chain of command.

Given what Sister Nightengale has said, the Divine almost certainly would have turned her down flat...and even an insane Meridith knows it.

What I'd like to know is how and why Lelianna became so rabidly anti-mage so soon after helping a BLOOD-MAGE (and her BFF) rescue Fereldan and Thedas from the blight?

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris is right about Meredith being completely out of control and engaged in widespread illegality. Whether that actually justifies the rest of his arguments like he thinks it does is a different matter.

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

[Halo Quea]

Beerfish wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


It's not.  Templars no matter how high ranking are not allowed to unilaterially declare a rite of anullment.  That is a deliberate check and balance by the Chantry to keep the Templars by abusing this most absolute final solution.  KC Gregoire explains it quite well in DAO as does Wynne.  Meridith's actions were blatently illegal.  The problem is that other than the Champion, no one has the stones to call her on it (and hasn't for over a decade...the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).  The templars for the most part are just as frightened of her as the mages.

If you talk with Knight Captain Cullen (if you side with the Templars), he openly admits that he has dire doubts about the necessity and legality of Meridith's actions, but there is no one for him to turn to.

-Polaris

So, after the chantry was blown up by Anders the templars are not allowed to invoke annulment?

Anders WAS NOT a member of Kirkwall's circle.  The circle wasn't even aware the act was going to take place. 

[Vormaerin]

I think that is a flaw in the characterization in the game. No way Wynne or Leilana should have stood by a PC blood mage or reaver. Same with Sebastian and Fenris. But they do. So anything after that is tainted by gamemanship instead of roleplay.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...


It's not.  Templars no matter how high ranking are not allowed to unilaterially declare a rite of anullment.  That is a deliberate check and balance by the Chantry to keep the Templars by abusing this most absolute final solution.  KC Gregoire explains it quite well in DAO as does Wynne.  Meridith's actions were blatently illegal.  The problem is that other than the Champion, no one has the stones to call her on it (and hasn't for over a decade...the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).  The templars for the most part are just as frightened of her as the mages.

If you talk with Knight Captain Cullen (if you side with the Templars), he openly admits that he has dire doubts about the necessity and legality of Meridith's actions, but there is no one for him to turn to.

-Polaris

Interesting. I sided with the Templars on my first run, and during the final battle I never heard Cullen question Meredith's authority to invoke the rite of annulment. I do remember him questioning whether it was neccessary, but that's not the same thing. The minute she ordered the death of Champion, which was blatantly illegal, he had no problem relieving her of command. Why wouldn't he have done the same if the annulment was illegal?

And a difference between DAO and DA2 is that Greagoir could go to the Grand Cleric for permission, in Meredith's case the GC was dead. Should she have waited for permission from the Divine in Orlais or the appointment of a new GC? That would have taken weeks, if not longer.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

Yeah, I wanted her to do something also.  She didn't feel she could.  I don't know why.  There was clearly something going on with the Seekers and the Divine even during the course of the game that we don't understand.   There are outside agitators stirring things up to the point that the Divine is talking about annulling the Kirkwall Circle against the advice of Elthina.

I also don't know if the Grand Cleric actually directly controls the local Templars or not.  They might.   But the Catholic church's paramilitary orders had their own chains of command that didn't go through the local archbishops.   Elthina might not have /direct/ authority over Meredith, though she clearly has greater status.

[Halo Quea]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris is right about Meredith being completely out of control and engaged in widespread illegality. Whether that actually justifies the rest of his arguments like he thinks it does is a different matter.

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

Wait a second.  Elthina was murdered not because she wouldn't intervene.  She was murdered because she was a person of importance to the Chantry.  You can't blame her for inaction when she clearly was always going to be targeted no matter what she did.

[IanPolaris]

Halo Quea wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris is right about Meredith being completely out of control and engaged in widespread illegality. Whether that actually justifies the rest of his arguments like he thinks it does is a different matter.

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

Wait a second.  Elthina was murdered not because she wouldn't intervene.  She was murdered because she was a person of importance to the Chantry.  You can't blame her for inaction when she clearly was always going to be targeted no matter what she did.

I don't care.  I do not and will not sanction Ander's actions.  I kill the terrorist abomination every time, right or not, he deserves death, and as Champion I am the last and only responsible arm of civil governent.

The problem is that Meridith is allowed to run wild because those that should control Meridith either can not (the Viscount winds up dead if he crosses Meridith) or will not control an out of control subordinate.  For that Elthina derseved what she got.  It's the true innocents that die with her that make me kill Anders everytime.

-Polaris

[Mnemnosyne]

In Greagoir's case, it would still have taken a couple weeks at least to get permission, since the message needed to be sent from the Tower to Denerim and then sent back, it wasn't just a matter of going across town for it.

If Meredith had cared about following procedure, she would have sent a message to the nearest Grand Cleric - perhaps in Denerim, some weeks away by ship, or perhaps somewhere else in the Free Marches, and in the meantime, contained the mages. But of course she wasn't interested in following procedure at that point.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

Yeah, I wanted her to do something also.  She didn't feel she could.  I don't know why.  There was clearly something going on with the Seekers and the Divine even during the course of the game that we don't understand.   There are outside agitators stirring things up to the point that the Divine is talking about annulling the Kirkwall Circle against the advice of Elthina.

I also don't know if the Grand Cleric actually directly controls the local Templars or not.  They might.   But the Catholic church's paramilitary orders had their own chains of command that didn't go through the local archbishops.   Elthina might not have /direct/ authority over Meredith, though she clearly has greater status.

The Grand Cleric does control the local templars.  We see that in a place as small as Lothering where Ser Bryant might be the local Knight Commander, but it's the Reverand Mother who commands the flock and gives him his marching orders...and Ser Bryant is very open about it.  You see the same Dynamic in Denerim both in the city and in the Fereldan Circle of Mages.  Whatever else, that old witch in Denerim runs a tight ship.

Ethina is a weak leader and a weak person.  If you had a genuinely strong Viscount and a sane Knight Commander and First Enchanter, this might be a good thing.  As it is, she's a key (and I'd say most important) element of the disaster.  Unlike Fereldan, Kirkwall NEEDS strong, senior leadership to smack Meridith in line from time to time, and that leadership is utterly lacking.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

If Greagoir didn't have the legal right to conduct the Right of Annulment when abominations were taking over the Circle Tower, I don't see why anyone would assume that Meredith would have the legal authority to declare the Rite of Annulment when that responsibility is for the Grand Cleric, and the Grand Cleric alone.

As for the Warden using blood magic, it's been said that blood magic isn't illegal among the Grey Wardens, a point the Warden can stress in Warden's Keep. Whether Leliana and Wynne would've had a problem with the Warden using "Grey Warden magic" because of their Chantry views than they did working with an apostate like Morrigan (who Wynne even addresses as a maleficar) is up to interpretation, I suppose. It's not as though either of them were saints; Wynne is an abomination and Leliana is a former bard.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Greagoir didn't have the legal right to conduct the Right of Annulment when abominations were taking over the Circle Tower, I don't see why anyone would assume that Meredith would have the legal authority to declare the Rite of Annulment when that responsibility is for the Grand Cleric, and the Grand Cleric alone.

As for the Warden using blood magic, it's been said that blood magic isn't illegal among the Grey Wardens, a point the Warden can stress in Warden's Keep. Whether Leliana and Wynne would've had a problem with the Warden using "Grey Warden anymore because of their Chantry views than they did working with an apostate like Morrigan (who Wynne even addresses as a maleficar) is up to interpretation, I suppose. Wynne is an abomination and Leliana is a former bard.

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


It's not.  Templars no matter how high ranking are not allowed to unilaterially declare a rite of anullment.  That is a deliberate check and balance by the Chantry to keep the Templars by abusing this most absolute final solution.  KC Gregoire explains it quite well in DAO as does Wynne.  Meridith's actions were blatently illegal.  The problem is that other than the Champion, no one has the stones to call her on it (and hasn't for over a decade...the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).  The templars for the most part are just as frightened of her as the mages.

If you talk with Knight Captain Cullen (if you side with the Templars), he openly admits that he has dire doubts about the necessity and legality of Meridith's actions, but there is no one for him to turn to.

-Polaris

Interesting. I sided with the Templars on my first run, and during the final battle I never heard Cullen question Meredith's authority to invoke the rite of annulment. I do remember him questioning whether it was neccessary, but that's not the same thing. The minute she ordered the death of Champion, which was blatantly illegal, he had no problem relieving her of command. Why wouldn't he have done the same if the annulment was illegal?

And a difference between DAO and DA2 is that Greagoir could go to the Grand Cleric for permission, in Meredith's case the GC was dead. Should she have waited for permission from the Divine in Orlais or the appointment of a new GC? That would have taken weeks, if not longer.

Actually ordering the death of the Champion is not (in most cases) expressly illegal (not that Meridith particularly cares by this point).  If the Champion is a mage, then the Right of Annulement applies (either as a circle mage or an open apostate) and ordering his or her execution is legal.  If the Champion is not a mage, he's protecting and using open apostates and countermanding/interfering with the KC's order to kill his/her own sister, and that too carries the penalty of death.

Quite honestly, the ordering of the Champion's death no matter what side you take is the most legal thing that Meridith does during this entire sorry encounter.  Why does Knight Captain Cullen relieve her of command then?  He's seen too much.  The woman is clearly a can short of a six-pack, and he can't follow her orders any longer.  What Knight Captain Cullen does is open mutiney, but even the Templars have seen and had enough.

-Polaris

[Vormaerin]

Possibly, but there is a big difference between formal and informal authority. The local military leaders here in Hawaii are going to listen VERY carefully to the words of the Governor, but the Governor can't actually sack them or give them /direct/ orders. That was the same way Templar commanderies worked in Europe. The Archbishops had a ton of influence over them, but didn't actually command them directly.

In some cases, the Archbishops and the military orders clashed and then the Pope decided. Usually, but not always, for the Archbishops.

[ddv.rsa]

 ..the last Viscount that tried to call Meridith in on her illegal actions wound up with a serious case of dead and that's long before the idol).

Polaris, you make it sound like Meredith spitefully murdered the last viscount because he dared to challenge her orders. She wasn't even KC at the time, just an ordinary templar. The viscount murdered her predecessor (who was against intervening in politics) and sent an army of mercs against the templars. Eventually she managed to rally a group of knights and took him down. What else should she have done?

At the time people even called her a hero for defeating a tyrant, that's how she got promoted to KC.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 03 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[Halo Quea]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

Yeah, I wanted her to do something also.  She didn't feel she could.  I don't know why.  There was clearly something going on with the Seekers and the Divine even during the course of the game that we don't understand.   There are outside agitators stirring things up to the point that the Divine is talking about annulling the Kirkwall Circle against the advice of Elthina.

I also don't know if the Grand Cleric actually directly controls the local Templars or not.  They might.   But the Catholic church's paramilitary orders had their own chains of command that didn't go through the local archbishops.   Elthina might not have /direct/ authority over Meredith, though she clearly has greater status.

I imagine that Elthina wouldn't just be able to remove Meredith.  There is pretty good chance that it would have involved a hearing of some sort where accusations or charges are made formally.  Then Meredith is given a chance to defend and clear herself of whatever charges have been made.   With all the blood mage craziness in Kirkwall it might not have been hard to guess what the outcome of that would have been.

[Vormaerin]

Halo Quea wrote...

I imagine that Elthina wouldn't just be able to remove Meredith.  There is pretty good chance that it would have involved a hearing of some sort where accusations or charges are made formally.  Then Meredith is given a chance to defend and clear herself of whatever charges have been made.   With all the blood mage craziness in Kirkwall it might not have been hard to guess what the outcome of that would have been.

This is my thinking also.  Sister Nightengale certainly makes it clear the Divine is already inclined to act against the Circle Mages.   She may well be paralyzed by the knowledge that if she sacks Meredith, she'll force a showdown that will bring the Divine down on the Mage Circle anyway.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Greagoir didn't have the legal right to conduct the Right of Annulment when abominations were taking over the Circle Tower, I don't see why anyone would assume that Meredith would have the legal authority to declare the Rite of Annulment when that responsibility is for the Grand Cleric, and the Grand Cleric alone.

As for the Warden using blood magic, it's been said that blood magic isn't illegal among the Grey Wardens, a point the Warden can stress in Warden's Keep. Whether Leliana and Wynne would've had a problem with the Warden using "Grey Warden anymore because of their Chantry views than they did working with an apostate like Morrigan (who Wynne even addresses as a maleficar) is up to interpretation, I suppose. Wynne is an abomination and Leliana is a former bard.

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

It doesn't.  Otherwise an ambitious Templar would have had a Grand Cleric assassinate ages ago in order to do something that otherwise would not get Chantry approval.  The Templars are a parallel branch of the Chantry (think of them as a military dominican order of the midaeval RCC).  They are NOT priestessess of the Chantry and thus do NOT have the authority of the Clergy.  The Clergy and only the Clergy (Grand Cleric or higher) have the authority to authorize the RIght of Annulment.  It's a check to prevent the Templars from gaining too much power.

As for Lelianna, I still want to know where and why she swallowed her anti-mage pills.  Wynne (a mage herself) was far more anti-mage than Lelianna....but you'd never know it in DA2.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

The Grand Cleric is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in a given location, second only to the Divine. According to the Hierarchy of the Chantry codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace'."

Why would you think authority would transfer to the Knight-Commander for an act that the Grand Cleric has sole command over? If the threat of an abomination force overwhelming Ferelden wasn't sufficient to warrant Knight-Commander Greagoir to break the law, why would the action of a former Grey Warden standing right in front of Meredith?

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Polaris, you make it sound like Meredith spitefully murdered the last viscount because he dared to challenge her orders. She wasn't even KC at the time, just an ordinary templar. The viscount murdered her predecessor (who was against intervening in politics) and sent an army of mercs against the templars. Eventually she managed to rally a group of knights and took him down. What else should she have done?

At the time people even called her a hero for defeating a tyrant, that's how she got promoted to KC.

Yeah sure.  That's the Templar version and winners right the history books.  What really happened (if you read the other codex entries) ws the last Viscount got sick and tired of the Templars interfering in city politics, and wanted them gone as was his right as a ruling noble!

So yeah, I do think that Meridith wants to be Vis-Countess so bad she can taste is and has since she spitefully murdered the prior Viscount.

-Polari

[Mnemnosyne]

Vormaerin wrote...

Possibly, but there is a big difference between formal and informal authority. The local military leaders here in Hawaii are going to listen VERY carefully to the words of the Governor, but the Governor can't actually sack them or give them /direct/ orders. That was the same way Templar commanderies worked in Europe. The Archbishops had a ton of influence over them, but didn't actually command them directly.

In some cases, the Archbishops and the military orders clashed and then the Pope decided. Usually, but not always, for the Archbishops.

This is true.  I'm not, myself, sure that there is formal authority by the Grand Cleric over the Knight Commander.  I think there is, but unless I find a specific reference stating that I can't be certain.  So it might be possible that Elthina didn't have the direct authority to give orders to Meredith, in which case we are wrong about Elthina not taking the action she should.

On the other hand, Orsino going to see Elthina seems to suggest that she at least had the power to prevent Meredith from conducting her thorough search - although I'm not sure why she would want to.  This is actually a completely reasonable request from Meredith, given the obvious level of apostates and blood mages in Kirkwall.  Orsino obviously doesn't want it to happen since it would condemn him and who knows how many others, but it's certainly a reasonable thing for Meredith to do, given the circumstances.  It's actually somewhat strange, given the rest of Meredith's recent behavior, that such thorough searches are not regular in the Kirkwall Circle.

Personally, unless I have solid indication that the templars are not under the direct authority of the Grand Cleric, I will continue to operate under the logical assumption that they are, since most of the indirect evidence seems to indicate that the templars take orders from the revered mothers/grand clerics.

[Halo Quea]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes and all I ask, and all my Hawke's have ever asked Grand Cleric Erthina is to do her damned job!  Even Sebastian (no friend of mages) agrees that Erthina is being almost criminally irresponsible.

Part of her job is to control her immediate subordinate in the face of widespread illegality.  I consider what happened at Kirkwall to be almost entirely the Grand Cleric's fault.

-Polaris

Yeah, I wanted her to do something also.  She didn't feel she could.  I don't know why.  There was clearly something going on with the Seekers and the Divine even during the course of the game that we don't understand.   There are outside agitators stirring things up to the point that the Divine is talking about annulling the Kirkwall Circle against the advice of Elthina.

I also don't know if the Grand Cleric actually directly controls the local Templars or not.  They might.   But the Catholic church's paramilitary orders had their own chains of command that didn't go through the local archbishops.   Elthina might not have /direct/ authority over Meredith, though she clearly has greater status.

The Grand Cleric does control the local templars.  We see that in a place as small as Lothering where Ser Bryant might be the local Knight Commander, but it's the Reverand Mother who commands the flock and gives him his marching orders...and Ser Bryant is very open about it.  You see the same Dynamic in Denerim both in the city and in the Fereldan Circle of Mages.  Whatever else, that old witch in Denerim runs a tight ship.

Ethina is a weak leader and a weak person.  If you had a genuinely strong Viscount and a sane Knight Commander and First Enchanter, this might be a good thing.  As it is, she's a key (and I'd say most important) element of the disaster.  Unlike Fereldan, Kirkwall NEEDS strong, senior leadership to smack Meridith in line from time to time, and that leadership is utterly lacking.

-Polaris

My guess is that the Chantry probably likes it this way.  The last Viscount was EXECUTED when trying to limit the Templars authority in Kirkwall.  What good is strong leadership if you can't keep your head on top of your neck?

Think about it. The Viscount could have raised an army in all those years to deal with the Qunari, but would the Templars have blocked it?  Meredith won't even allow the nobles to assemble to choose a leader from amongst themselves. 

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

I imagine that Elthina wouldn't just be able to remove Meredith.  There is pretty good chance that it would have involved a hearing of some sort where accusations or charges are made formally.  Then Meredith is given a chance to defend and clear herself of whatever charges have been made.   With all the blood mage craziness in Kirkwall it might not have been hard to guess what the outcome of that would have been.

This is my thinking also.  Sister Nightengale certainly makes it clear the Divine is already inclined to act against the Circle Mages.   She may well be paralyzed by the knowledge that if she sacks Meredith, she'll force a showdown that will bring the Divine down on the Mage Circle anyway.

Again, since when is Lelianna of all people concerned that especially what happened in Fereldan (if you got Anora/Alister to free the circles) does she say rather snarkily that Kirkwall "can not be allowed to fall to magic" and equally snarkily says, "we have tolerated those that argued the circle should be seperated from the Chantry".

It makes we wish I had killed her in DAO.  Where does she come off when her BFF (and sometimes Lover) is a mage (and often a bloodmage?!?)   Especially when she cheers the Warden on in the post coranation (after asking the King to free the circle)?

-Polaris