Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
I think the Dailsh elves would like to see every elf united under the same banner, but they probably have their doubts let shem mages roaming free, after the fall of Arlathan, they would probably fear the birth of a new Tewinter Imperium.
Good point about the Imperium. And yeah, I do think the Dalish would love to see all elves united against a common cause, but I can't see this cause as being something that would unite them.
Plaintiff wrote... Templars will kidnap Dalish mages and take them to the Circle when the opportunity is present. That's a large part of the reason why Dalish tribes keep on the move, because their mages are especially rare and highly prized as eventual Keepers.
Ah, I forgot about that (I keep assuming they move just because of tense human-Dalish relations in general). If anything, this just reinforces why the idea of all the Dalish suddenly deciding to wage war on the templars is improbable. Why would they risk losing their culture, especially when they managed to only retain a small portion of what they originally had?
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
I was actually being sarcastic with that.
I knew this. I just felt like being grimdark.
esper wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Lazy Jer wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Mages should just commit mass-suicide. They will never win, never obtain any form of equality, and will never destroy the prejudice others hold for them. Virtually everyone around them is conditioned to hate them and would welcome news that a large number of troublesome (read: most, if not all) mages died. Parents should snuff out children, husbands kill wives, brothers kill sisters, and all mages should cease to exist. Then, Templars will have the future they want, free of rebellious mages, and can decide for themselves whether it was worth it.
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
All these common citizen might just end up having mages for children since the gene seems to be able to appear at random as well as being inherited (if it even is inherited at all.) So even if a whole generations of mages dies there would be no circle system for the next generation of mages and since magic first begins to be visble at age four or five we will have parents so attached to their children and suceeding in hiding their children from the authoriesties proberly even more than now because now the choice is not just: hide your child or have it taken away, but hide your child or die. These mages will grow up hating the ordinaires even more than the current generation because they will know that just living is now a crime punisable by death and not punisable by eternal imprisoment and will have absolutely no reason to not summon demons and the like.
There's an easy solution. Pay the parents to murder their children.
Pay them enough and they'll gladly bash their own child's head against the wall until it's nothing but pulp.
True, but as I said, Hawke's (and Morrigan's, and Merrill's and every other mage trained outside of a Circle) experiences prove that the Circle is not the only answer. [/quote] I wouldn't exactly consider Morrigan and Merrill to be shining paragons of what could be accomplished outside a circle. [quote]And if untrained child mage abominations are such a problem, why is it that the Templars always manage to round up the mage kidlets and bring them in without trouble? Anders burned down a barn. Wynne set someone's hair on fire. We don't know what Jowan did but we know he was about three or four years old, and was subsequently beaten.
And yet none of these untrained kidlets turn into raving abominations- they all get rounded up by the Templars after a few days pass and the journey to the Circle is uneventful.[/quote] I'm not saying that losing control automatically means turning into an abomination. But those examples you gave, about Anders and the barn and Wynne and tha hair? I hope you can see how those could escalate very quickly.
[quote]I think you're overstating the danger of child mages- we haven't seen a single one in-game other than Connor who is actually possessed. [/quote] He's the only in-game apostate child mage we see, IIRC.
[quote]And Connor had both help and training from Jowan- he knew just enough to make mistakes. Of course, he was also being taught by a runaway Tower apprentice, and was in the frightening position of being taken away from his family.[/quote] I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. [quote]Mages only become abominations in two scenarios, that we've seen: A) Lust for power Deep and abiding fear of death or loss.
Take those two away by allowing mages to live normally and happily, and by ensuring that the education they need is something that they want instead of something that they fear, and you win.[/quote] Haha, I'm not sure how many kids actually want education But it is something that is absolutely necessary.
That being said, I think you are downplaying the possession aspect. I'm pretty sure I sent you a link to an interview with Gaider (it might have been on this thread or another one; there are so many similar threads they all get jumbled together), where he says that accepting a demon can be done unconsciously. And just becuase they are integrated into society doesn't mean all problems magically (I have to stop saying that word in these discussions xD) disappear. What about problems at home? Friends? Boyfriends? I'm sure we all remember being a teenager, and how small, stupid things seemed like the end of the world. Death and loss is still a problem in non-mage societies. Family members, neighbors, and pets can all die, and since this is a medieval culture I'm assuming the death rate is fairly high less-than-affluant towns and villages.
[quote]I'm not saying that they join a local school system; I'm saying replace the Tower with local outposts, where children can live at home or close to home and still attend. Make Templars a part of it by incorporating them with the local guard, and have them around to respond to threats both magical and non-magical. Spread the Circle mages throughout Thedas and have the willing staff these schools and teach the children who want to learn. Let mages have families, and communities, and make them a part of the world instead of keeping them separate from it.
The savings you'd have in making the local mage schools houses of healing for humans and livestock and a resource to help defend the area from bandits/animal incursions/darkspawn would more than compensate for the cost of keeping the school, plus you aren't paying to board most of the students. Kids don't get dragged away from home, families stay together, people are happy, productive, the benefits of having a local garrison of helpful mages become immediately obvious, and both the older mages and the repurposed, non-lyrium-addicted Templars guard against the rare magical accident or blood mage.[/quote] I think we're pretty much on the same page here. I was going through possible alternatives for the current system and I came to the same conclusion you did,in that each town large enough to have a Chantry should have a mage outpost where the mages learn. The only thing I'm hesitant about is letting the mages sleep at home, since I believe that's when the mages are considered to be the weakest. I think it really depends on the age, as well as the student's mentality. It may be more prudent for younger children to sleep at the outpost (with regular visits from Mom and Dad, of course) until their teachers feel they know how to control themselves and say no to demons.
Another alternative that is less of a drastic change would be to treat the tower as more like a boarding school than a prison. Students would stay there until Harrowing age (although I'm inclined to get rid of the Harrowing altogether), where they will be free to live their lives however they choose (within reason, obviously). There should be regular trips to neighboring villages where they could put their skills to good use. I would also like to have the students able to return home to visit their parents on occasion. And letters should be allowed, obviously (although the towers already allow this, so that's not much of a change).
[quote]And the Chantry needs to stop spreading the lie that mages are inherently evil. That **** has to stop, period.[/quote] This. Magic is supposed to be the Maker's gift, after all.
[quote]And what I am saying is that there IS a better way.[/quote] Yes, and I also think there are better ways to show the system's flawed than blowing up a church.
[quote]Hey, noble goal, fine. But don't complain about how terrible it is to be a Templar when it's a path YOU chose. [/quote] I don't recall any templars complaining...?
[quote] You want to protect the citizenry but don't want to Tranquil innocent mages? Join the Guard. [/quote] Guards don't stand a chance against a mage. Templars do.
[quote]You do know that if you talk to the Templars in Act III, in the Gallows, you discover that Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment? That she was going to kill every mage in the Circle (including Bethany) BEFORE Anders blew up the Chantry? [/quote] I know she sent the word. Asking for permission is a lot different than actually doing it, though. I don't believe she received an affirmative answer from the Divine (probably because of a conflicting report from Elthina, who tries to tell her that Kirkwall is awesome and there are absolutely no mage problems whatsoever), otherwise she would have annulled the circle long before Anders.
[quote]Crazy-cupcakes Knight Commander was ALREADY taking the most drastic action possible. Anders stepped in to make sure that the possibility of Annulment would at least count as tinder to start the revolution.[/quote] So basically he was willing to make the mages (including Hawke's sister!) a bunch of sacrifical lambs, as long as he proved a point. What a noble guy.
[quote]No, I don't think attitudes will change overnight. But I think if you integrate mages into society, and make them helpful, useful, trusted, healers, protectors, that attitudes WILL change. If you let mages get married, have children, act as part of their community, then that person becomes not only a mage but a father, a friend, a neighbor, a husband.[/quote] I agree with this.
[quote]I'm not at all convinced that the everyday populace ever finds out exactly what happened with the Chantry. The Circles know, and yes, in Asunder they write him off as a madman, but really, most of the people who were there scattered or died. [/quote] I can't see any reason why the surviving templars (and Sebastian!) would keep the information quiet. If anything, this would give their causes more ammunition. And what about Hawke's party (especially Varric the storyteller) if you side with the templars? Why wouldn't they want what happened to be known? You think no one will ask the future Viscount what happened?
[quote]He didn't do anything overtly to demonstrate that HE was the guy who did it. [/quote] Except launching into a big dramatic speech, glowing blue, banging his staff on the ground and shouting how there could be no compromise. After the dust clears I'm pretty sure his manifestos would be counted as evidence.
[quote]And in the wide world of Thedas, he's not exactly a known celebrity. In Kirkwall, yes, and to some extent at Kinloch Hold, but those are two cities in an entire world.[/quote] Don't forget about Amaranthine!
[quote]Aveline tells Anders that he needs to turn himself in and admit to blowing up the Chantry. Obviously he doesn't, [/quote] This annoyed me a lot. If you're going to make your whole platform be about justice then practice what you preach and be ready to face consequences for your actions.
[quote]Your ordinary, everyday person wouldn't know Anders if he saw him. The everyday guy just saw a big explosion on the hill, and when he goes to see the rubble he finds out that the Grand Cleric and many people, if not everyone inside, is dead. Apparently magic blew it up (although some conspiracy theorists will no doubt start blaming the Qunari- didn't those guys have explosives?) and the mage who did it is a fearful abomination.[/quote] The people recognizing (or not recognzing, as it were) Anders isn't the issue here. The issue is what he was: a mage who killed a much-loved clergywoman. It doesn't matter what he looks like; all that matters is what he did. Does the population really need more reasons to fear magic?
[quote]Anders could walk right up to that guy and say "Terrible, what happened to the Chantry," and the everyday guy would just nod and agree and maybe think that the blond guy sounds Fereldan, and he sure hopes that they catch that terrible 10-foot tall abomination on the loose.[/quote] If Anders actually has the balls to say something like that in DA3 there had better be an option to punch him in the face.
[quote]So who is the everyman more afraid of, the 10-foot tall abomination or the demonic knight-commander? I rather doubt that either side has much street cred post-game.[/quote] Oh, I think the templars will receive a lot of (well-deserved) flak. But that doesn't lessen the impact of what Anders did. The templars didn't blow up a place of worship that is very dear to the vast majority of Thedas. While speculation will most likely be rampant, the emotional impact blowing up a Chantry has will not go away so easily.
[quote]But Anders had to be the general, to plan a tactic that would start a war to free his people. He had to think in terms of acceptable losses. And if you look at his face after the explosion, it's clear that blowing up the Chantry devastates him personally:
This is not the face of a man who's happy with what he's done. It IS the face of a man who took the only choice left to him, a choice as abhorrent to him as any other, a man who at that moment wants and expects to die for his actions and his betrayal of his lover.[/quote] I can see he feels awful at that moment (and he should). It obviously wasn't a decision he made lightly, and the fact that it does bother him gives him some respect in my book. But the fact that he refuses to go through any sort of penance for his actions and runs away to be a fugitive leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Who's to say that something like this won't happen again, if it's "for the greater good?"
[quote]The man has been a healer his entire life- do you suppose that there's a night that goes by where he's not haunted with the screams of people who died at his hands, their gory wounds all too easily imagined by a man who puts broken bodies back together for a living?[/quote] I'm not sure, actually. He doesn't seem to care if you keep him with you and side with the mages. He just keeps talking about how awesome this revolution is going to be.
[quote] But in the smaller picture, I'd imagine that doing the "neccessary" thing (especially with Justice there to remind him of the unjust deaths of innocents) probably keeps Anders in a constant state of guilt and self-loathing. [/quote] Good. [quote]I think Hepler said somwhere that in her eyes (as his writer) killing him was the merciful choice, because then he doesn't have to live with what he's done. [/quote] Yup, which is why he usually lives in my playthroughs.
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
I was actually being sarcastic with that.
I knew this. I just felt like being grimdark.
esper wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Lazy Jer wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Mages should just commit mass-suicide. They will never win, never obtain any form of equality, and will never destroy the prejudice others hold for them. Virtually everyone around them is conditioned to hate them and would welcome news that a large number of troublesome (read: most, if not all) mages died. Parents should snuff out children, husbands kill wives, brothers kill sisters, and all mages should cease to exist. Then, Templars will have the future they want, free of rebellious mages, and can decide for themselves whether it was worth it.
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
All these common citizen might just end up having mages for children since the gene seems to be able to appear at random as well as being inherited (if it even is inherited at all.) So even if a whole generations of mages dies there would be no circle system for the next generation of mages and since magic first begins to be visble at age four or five we will have parents so attached to their children and suceeding in hiding their children from the authoriesties proberly even more than now because now the choice is not just: hide your child or have it taken away, but hide your child or die. These mages will grow up hating the ordinaires even more than the current generation because they will know that just living is now a crime punisable by death and not punisable by eternal imprisoment and will have absolutely no reason to not summon demons and the like.
There's an easy solution. Pay the parents to murder their children.
Pay them enough and they'll gladly bash their own child's head against the wall until it's nothing but pulp.
As cynical as it might be they won't. Woman at least have a very strong maternal instinct which can be bought as long as they are fed and generally content (and money won't make you content in the da world. The right name is more important and you can't buy that, yet) and and humans have this funny little thing call pride that just might make them offended that you would make the offer in the first place and the people who would hide the child out of principle, but wouldn't have done it before, would cancel out those that carve in. Greed is not all to a human being. There will always be some who suceed in hiding that their children are mages and these mages will not even have a circle system and would have even less sympati with the authority because the authory just give them less and less reason to care about the people caught in the cross-fire. Honestly you are just it all to justifable for the mages to resort to blood magic and demons because the system they fight have less and less human qualities in their eyes meaning that more and more extreme methods would be justified.
Darkrider296 wrote... I understand that the very occasional mage will slip up and become taken over.
"Very occasional?" Do you realize how many abominations we have to fight in both games?
That mage can either try to hide their possession very poorly as they'll have to accept monthly possession tests from the mage tax collector type dudes or they will run off and be registered as missing thus they'll be wanted.
There are no possession tests.
Blood magic is harder to spot therefore education programs have to be very clear that with blood magic you are allowing your self to be in contact with a demon.
You can make a deal with a demon without even realizing you're doing it. Also, you don't need to have a contract with a demon to do blood magic.
Secondly teach that possession is not effective even for practical reasons. I don't doubt that there are some people born with naturally selfish temperaments therefore you have to empathize that YOU are being controlled.
You don't have to be selfish to give into a demon. Remember Conner?
Since people are usually naturally good than evil
How did you arrive at this conclusion?
there would be way more helpful mages doing extra ordinary amounts of good on a daily basis, which would easily out weight the occasional evil mage who tries to fight a village every 20-40 years lets say.
You don't think you're being just a teensy bit generous in your numbers?
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
I was actually being sarcastic with that.
I knew this. I just felt like being grimdark.
esper wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Lazy Jer wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Mages should just commit mass-suicide. They will never win, never obtain any form of equality, and will never destroy the prejudice others hold for them. Virtually everyone around them is conditioned to hate them and would welcome news that a large number of troublesome (read: most, if not all) mages died. Parents should snuff out children, husbands kill wives, brothers kill sisters, and all mages should cease to exist. Then, Templars will have the future they want, free of rebellious mages, and can decide for themselves whether it was worth it.
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
All these common citizen might just end up having mages for children since the gene seems to be able to appear at random as well as being inherited (if it even is inherited at all.) So even if a whole generations of mages dies there would be no circle system for the next generation of mages and since magic first begins to be visble at age four or five we will have parents so attached to their children and suceeding in hiding their children from the authoriesties proberly even more than now because now the choice is not just: hide your child or have it taken away, but hide your child or die. These mages will grow up hating the ordinaires even more than the current generation because they will know that just living is now a crime punisable by death and not punisable by eternal imprisoment and will have absolutely no reason to not summon demons and the like.
There's an easy solution. Pay the parents to murder their children.
Pay them enough and they'll gladly bash their own child's head against the wall until it's nothing but pulp.
As cynical as it might be they won't. Woman at least have a very strong maternal instinct which can be bought as long as they are fed and generally content (and money won't make you content in the da world. The right name is more important and you can't buy that, yet) and and humans have this funny little thing call pride that just might make them offended that you would make the offer in the first place and the people who would hide the child out of principle, but wouldn't have done it before, would cancel out those that carve in. Greed is not all to a human being. There will always be some who suceed in hiding that their children are mages and these mages will not even have a circle system and would have even less sympati with the authority because the authory just give them less and less reason to care about the people caught in the cross-fire. Honestly you are just it all to justifable for the mages to resort to blood magic and demons because the system they fight have less and less human qualities in their eyes meaning that more and more extreme methods would be justified.
Money is everything to a common yob. Back in medieval dirt poor times, you know how a family cut costs? They blamed the elderly grandmother of being a witch. Or they decided to stop feeding their youngest. That's just how it works. And if one of those mage children are snuffed out so that the rest of the family gets some silver, and are able to feed themselves, they'll take it.
And for those who resist, kill the entire village - execute the men, rape the women, and torture the children - until they surrender. And give the villagers mercy if they assist you.
Money is everything to a common yob. Back in medieval dirt poor times, you know how a family cut costs? They blamed the elderly grandmother of being a witch. Or they decided to stop feeding their youngest. That's just how it works. And if one of those mage children are snuffed out so that the rest of the family gets some silver, and are able to feed themselves, they'll take it.
And for those who resist, kill the entire village - execute the men, rape the women, and torture the children - until they surrender. And give the villagers mercy if they assist you.
One small flaw...fraud. You'd bankrupt the kingdom because every Thomas, Richard and Harold would claim their least favorite child was secretly a mage and demand payment for their death.
EDIT: I've got it! Tetris! If the demons had Tetris in the fade, they'd be so occupied with that that they wouldn't even want anything to do with our world! They'd just be sitting there saying "I need a red piece!" and cursing under their breaths! Thus removing the threat of demonic possession by mages. Brilliant!
Seriously, folks, when is Graham Chapman going to walk into this thread in an army uniform stopping the whole thing for being too silly?
plus that I never believe the Chantry is full of 'innocent' people...not this one in Kirkwall anyways. I find most people who visit the Chantry support their unjust treatment of mages to some extent...(like Fenris and Sebastian are the only two companions I've noticed visiting the Chantry).
You can support an institution but still disagree with certain tenets.
Will you call people 'innocent' if they support the slavery in Tevinter?
I would, yeah. Just because someone holds a morally reprehensible viewpoint doesn't mean they necessarily deserve to die. If this was an Imperial Chantry that was blown up by Fenris I would have been equally horrified. And to take your comparison one step further: remember the American Civil War? I would absolutely consider the civilians in the South to be innocent, even though the institution of slavery was supported in those certain states.
'm not saying they deserve to die or what, I'm just saying perharps those aren't that 'innocent' after all...
Keep in mind that the cutscene showed fire catching on to other building as well. Also, debris. It has to fall somewhere.
Money is everything to a common yob. Back in medieval dirt poor times, you know how a family cut costs? They blamed the elderly grandmother of being a witch. Or they decided to stop feeding their youngest. That's just how it works. And if one of those mage children are snuffed out so that the rest of the family gets some silver, and are able to feed themselves, they'll take it.
And for those who resist, kill the entire village - execute the men, rape the women, and torture the children - until they surrender. And give the villagers mercy if they assist you.
One small flaw...fraud. You'd bankrupt the kingdom because every Thomas, Richard and Harold would claim their least favorite child was secretly a mage and demand payment for their death.
EDIT: I've got it! Tetris! If the demons had Tetris in the fade, they'd be so occupied with that that they wouldn't even want anything to do with our world! They'd just be sitting there saying "I need a red piece!" and cursing under their breaths! Thus removing the threat of demonic possession by mages. Brilliant!
Seriously, folks, when is Graham Chapman going to walk into this thread in an army uniform stopping the whole thing for being too silly?
Templars are usually good enough to tell, if we're judging by Ferelden's ones. If the family is lying, here's what you do:
1.) Kill the child 2.) Force the family to eat the corpse. 3.) Kill the family. 4.) Flay their corpses 5.) Stick the corpses on pikes for all to see. 6.) Rejoice in the Maker's name, for you have done His work.
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
I was actually being sarcastic with that.
I knew this. I just felt like being grimdark.
esper wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Lazy Jer wrote...
CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Mages should just commit mass-suicide. They will never win, never obtain any form of equality, and will never destroy the prejudice others hold for them. Virtually everyone around them is conditioned to hate them and would welcome news that a large number of troublesome (read: most, if not all) mages died. Parents should snuff out children, husbands kill wives, brothers kill sisters, and all mages should cease to exist. Then, Templars will have the future they want, free of rebellious mages, and can decide for themselves whether it was worth it.
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall.
All these common citizen might just end up having mages for children since the gene seems to be able to appear at random as well as being inherited (if it even is inherited at all.) So even if a whole generations of mages dies there would be no circle system for the next generation of mages and since magic first begins to be visble at age four or five we will have parents so attached to their children and suceeding in hiding their children from the authoriesties proberly even more than now because now the choice is not just: hide your child or have it taken away, but hide your child or die. These mages will grow up hating the ordinaires even more than the current generation because they will know that just living is now a crime punisable by death and not punisable by eternal imprisoment and will have absolutely no reason to not summon demons and the like.
There's an easy solution. Pay the parents to murder their children.
Pay them enough and they'll gladly bash their own child's head against the wall until it's nothing but pulp.
As cynical as it might be they won't. Woman at least have a very strong maternal instinct which can be bought as long as they are fed and generally content (and money won't make you content in the da world. The right name is more important and you can't buy that, yet) and and humans have this funny little thing call pride that just might make them offended that you would make the offer in the first place and the people who would hide the child out of principle, but wouldn't have done it before, would cancel out those that carve in. Greed is not all to a human being. There will always be some who suceed in hiding that their children are mages and these mages will not even have a circle system and would have even less sympati with the authority because the authory just give them less and less reason to care about the people caught in the cross-fire. Honestly you are just it all to justifable for the mages to resort to blood magic and demons because the system they fight have less and less human qualities in their eyes meaning that more and more extreme methods would be justified.
Money is everything to a common yob. Back in medieval dirt poor times, you know how a family cut costs? They blamed the elderly grandmother of being a witch. Or they decided to stop feeding their youngest. That's just how it works. And if one of those mage children are snuffed out so that the rest of the family gets some silver, and are able to feed themselves, they'll take it.
And for those who resist, kill the entire village - execute the men, rape the women, and torture the children - until they surrender. And give the villagers mercy if they assist you.
Yeah, but you are not talking about a common mob, but a Mother and a Father. These are indivudals and most will love their children. Alot of those willing to send them to the circle won't send them to the dead and they are not going to inform their neighbors, they are going to hide and move from town to town if necessary.
Templars are usually good enough to tell, if we're judging by Ferelden's ones. If the family is lying, here's what you do:
1.) Kill the child 2.) Force the family to eat the corpse. 3.) Kill the family. 4.) Flay their corpses 5.) Stick the corpses on pikes for all to see.
Well that's just silly...I mean force the family to eat the corpse...and then kill the family. You'd be there all day! (I'm still being grossly sarcastic for the record by the way).
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?[/quote]
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall. [/quote]
I was actually being sarcastic with that.[/quote]
I knew this. I just felt like being grimdark.
[quote]esper wrote...
[quote]CrimsonZephyr wrote...
[quote]Lazy Jer wrote...
[quote]CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Mages should just commit mass-suicide. They will never win, never obtain any form of equality, and will never destroy the prejudice others hold for them. Virtually everyone around them is conditioned to hate them and would welcome news that a large number of troublesome (read: most, if not all) mages died. Parents should snuff out children, husbands kill wives, brothers kill sisters, and all mages should cease to exist. Then, Templars will have the future they want, free of rebellious mages, and can decide for themselves whether it was worth it.[/quote]
Better yet, why not just wipe everyone out and leave the place to the darkspawn?[/quote]
Because common people have intrinsic worth. Mass murder of mages can be easily justified -- since objective morality does not exist, even the most conventionally monstrous acts against them can be portrayed as good, or even heroic. Mass murder of common people, given arbitrary importance by arbitrary standards? That's an unforgivable crime.
What's really holding Thedas back is its hypocritical insistence on restraint and morality. It's the Templars ultimate hesitation in not murdering mages when they are children, irrespective of guilt, that will be the root of Thedas's ultimate downfall. [/quote]
All these common citizen might just end up having mages for children since the gene seems to be able to appear at random as well as being inherited (if it even is inherited at all.) So even if a whole generations of mages dies there would be no circle system for the next generation of mages and since magic first begins to be visble at age four or five we will have parents so attached to their children and suceeding in hiding their children from the authoriesties proberly even more than now because now the choice is not just: hide your child or have it taken away, but hide your child or die. These mages will grow up hating the ordinaires even more than the current generation because they will know that just living is now a crime punisable by death and not punisable by eternal imprisoment and will have absolutely no reason to not summon demons and the like. [/quote]
There's an easy solution. Pay the parents to murder their children.
Pay them enough and they'll gladly bash their own child's head against the wall until it's nothing but pulp.
[/quote]
As cynical as it might be they won't. Woman at least have a very strong maternal instinct which can be bought as long as they are fed and generally content (and money won't make you content in the da world. The right name is more important and you can't buy that, yet) and and humans have this funny little thing call pride that just might make them offended that you would make the offer in the first place and the people who would hide the child out of principle, but wouldn't have done it before, would cancel out those that carve in. Greed is not all to a human being. There will always be some who suceed in hiding that their children are mages and these mages will not even have a circle system and would have even less sympati with the authority because the authory just give them less and less reason to care about the people caught in the cross-fire. Honestly you are just it all to justifable for the mages to resort to blood magic and demons because the system they fight have less and less human qualities in their eyes meaning that more and more extreme methods would be justified.[/quote]
Money is everything to a common yob. Back in medieval dirt poor times, you know how a family cut costs? They blamed the elderly grandmother of being a witch. Or they decided to stop feeding their youngest. That's just how it works. And if one of those mage children are snuffed out so that the rest of the family gets some silver, and are able to feed themselves, they'll take it.
And for those who resist, kill the entire village - execute the men, rape the women, and torture the children - until they surrender. And give the villagers mercy if they assist you.
[/quote]
Yeah, but you are not talking about a common mob, but a Mother and a Father. These are indivudals and most will love their children. Alot of those willing to send them to the circle won't send them to the dead and they are not going to inform their neighbors, they are going to hide and move from town to town if necessary. [/quote]
People are inherently selfish. If you provide the right incentives, by carrot or by stick, they will turn on each other.
Templars are usually good enough to tell, if we're judging by Ferelden's ones. If the family is lying, here's what you do:
1.) Kill the child 2.) Force the family to eat the corpse. 3.) Kill the family. 4.) Flay their corpses 5.) Stick the corpses on pikes for all to see.
Well that's just silly...I mean force the family to eat the corpse...and then kill the family. You'd be there all day! (I'm still being grossly sarcastic for the record by the way).
True artistry takes time. If it takes all day, so be it.
Perhaps, Crimson, I don't agree though. Your child is more of value to many than money, if nothing else because your child will be there when leave the world. People, at least Mothers love their children enough to do crazy thing to prevent them from death. Which is why it wouldn't work. All you would do is encourage all contries under the White Divine to turn against the templars and join the mages cause, because they are going to hate the templars and proberly stopped following the Chantry since it obviosly the templars are more evil and do more visable damage than the mages.
So continue in that track, your are winning the mages fight for them.
True artistry takes time. If it takes all day, so be it.
*Arms crossed, stern look* If I'm going to be dropping my hard-earned copper pieces into a Chantry collection plate every service I don't want them going to pay a bunch of would-be hippy Templar "artists". (continued sarcasm).
Perhaps, Crimson, I don't agree though. Your child is more of value to many than money, if nothing else because your child will be there when leave the world. People, at least Mothers love their children enough to do crazy thing to prevent them from death. Which is why it wouldn't work. All you would do is encourage all contries under the White Divine to turn against the templars and join the mages cause, because they are going to hate the templars and proberly stopped following the Chantry since it obviosly the templars are more evil and do more visable damage than the mages. So continue in that track, your are winning the mages fight for them.
Children are an investment. Clothing them takes money, feeding them takes money. If one were to give money on the condition that a mage child be killed, that would mean the mother, father, and other children would be able to eat, they would take that offer. Also, public opinion doesn't matter. They'll either accept willingly or accept under duress. What matters are weapons and people to brandish them, not "the common man." The common man exists to eat, sleep, ****, and die. Nothing more, nothing less.
The common man exists to eat, sleep, ****, and die. Nothing more, nothing less.
You decide what you exist for. That's the difference between people and animals. People are not a part of nature, not a part of food chain yet masters of all. Some of us don't live for survival and reproduction. Science, philosophy, suicide, death for a self found cause, all of these facts, point at it.
The common man you refer to, is not a man really, not a human, but an animal.
CrimsonZephyr wrote... Children are an investment. Clothing them takes money, feeding them takes money. If one were to give money on the condition that a mage child be killed, that would mean the mother, father, and other children would be able to eat, they would take that offer. Also, public opinion doesn't matter. They'll either accept willingly or accept under duress. What matters are weapons and people to brandish them, not "the common man." The common man exists to eat, sleep, ****, and die. Nothing more, nothing less.
Guys. CrimsonZephyr is trolling, and trolling hard, and has been for pages and pages and pages. Here's your wakeup call in case you missed the fact that he's throwing out astonishing amounts of hyperbole with every (darkly, evilly amusing) post.
[quote]Always Alice wrote... I wouldn't exactly consider Morrigan and Merrill to be shining paragons of what could be accomplished outside a circle. [/quote]
Yes, Merrill is a blood mage. But she fights on your side, loyally and well, and frankly, Marethari's death is her own fault. Merrill brought Hawke along as insurance in case things went sour. There was no guarantee that Merrill couldn't resist being possessed (she WAS shaken by the Fade if you took her along, and swore to do better in the future.) My Hawke would have given her the benefit of a doubt and let things fall out as they would, and if Merrill had incontrovertibly lost control to a demon my Hawke would have killed her. There was no reason for Marethari to sacrifice herself on a "maybe." Hawke and Co. have put down large numbers of demons by Act III.
[quote] I'm not saying that losing control automatically means turning into an abomination. But those examples you gave, about Anders and the barn and Wynne and tha hair? I hope you can see how those could escalate very quickly. [/quote]
My point is that every child brought to the Circle Tower did so under duress, and was separated from their family with varying degrees of kicking and screaming and weeping, after manifesting their powers. And yet the Circle is filled with non-abomination mages who arrived and survived without incident, even when undergoing the most traumatic and frightening experience in their young lives.
[quote]I think you're overstating the danger of child mages- we haven't seen a single one in-game other than Connor who is actually possessed. [/quote] [quote]He's the only in-game apostate child mage we see, IIRC. [/quote]
Merrill was given into Keeper training at four years of age. Hawke and Bethany grew up within a home environment. Morrigan was raised by Flemeth. None of these apostate mage children became possessed, despite their lack of being locked in a stone tower under guard by killers. [quote]And Connor had both help and training from Jowan- he knew just enough to make mistakes. Of course, he was also being taught by a runaway Tower apprentice, and was in the frightening position of being taken away from his family.[/quote] [quote]I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. [/quote]
My point is that Connor was receiving instruction from an untrustworthy source, and he was doing so while afraid. If he'd had a reliable instructor and been allowed to pursue said studies without fear of being taken away from his family, the demon incident might never have occured at all.
[quote]Mages only become abominations in two scenarios, that we've seen: A) Lust for power Deep and abiding fear of death or loss.
Take those two away by allowing mages to live normally and happily, and by ensuring that the education they need is something that they want instead of something that they fear, and you win.[/quote]
[quote]Haha, I'm not sure how many kids actually want education But it is something that is absolutely necessary.
That being said, I think you are downplaying the possession aspect. I'm pretty sure I sent you a link to an interview with Gaider (it might have been on this thread or another one; there are so many similar threads they all get jumbled together), where he says that accepting a demon can be done unconsciously. And just becuase they are integrated into society doesn't mean all problems magically (I have to stop saying that word in these discussions xD) disappear. What about problems at home? Friends? Boyfriends? I'm sure we all remember being a teenager, and how small, stupid things seemed like the end of the world. Death and loss is still a problem in non-mage societies. Family members, neighbors, and pets can all die, and since this is a medieval culture I'm assuming the death rate is fairly high less-than-affluant towns and villages. [/quote]
I read the interview, and what I took away from it is that every mage and every situation are different. I don't think that mages are in danger in their sleep unless they happen to make bargains while they're in the Fade. But the big thing that happens with a mage in the Fade, I think, is that they're noticed by demons, and pursued from that point on. I think Gaider's "unconscious" doesn't mean asleep, but rather means that they can agree without saying "Yes, please possess me!" It's far more likely that a cornered mage, like Olivia for example, can say "Please, somebody help me," and offer a blanket acceptance of any "help" that's offered, demon or no.
But keep in mind Olivia was hidden by her father, and had no training whatsoever. If she'd had a good tutor who'd taught her to harness her abilities and "just say no!" to demons, she might have come out of that encounter very differently. Thus I agree that education of some sort for mages is absolutely neccessary.
To me, becoming possessed is sort of like committing suicide- people might think about it from time to time, and there might be really bad points in their life where they consider it seriously. But none of it counts until they actually take the pills or slit their wrists- that is the point of no return. And just as a person with good counselors, caring doctors, a supportive family, etc. can be helped and educated out of that "I'm going to kill myself" mentality, so can a mage with the proper education and support resist the urge to give themselves over to a demon. I don't think a mage is walking around every second with demons banging on a door in their heads and repeating ad nauseum "no, no, no, no, no, no, no, still no, no..."
[quote] I think we're pretty much on the same page here. I was going through possible alternatives for the current system and I came to the same conclusion you did,in that each town large enough to have a Chantry should have a mage outpost where the mages learn. The only thing I'm hesitant about is letting the mages sleep at home, since I believe that's when the mages are considered to be the weakest. I think it really depends on the age, as well as the student's mentality. It may be more prudent for younger children to sleep at the outpost (with regular visits from Mom and Dad, of course) until their teachers feel they know how to control themselves and say no to demons.
Another alternative that is less of a drastic change would be to treat the tower as more like a boarding school than a prison. Students would stay there until Harrowing age (although I'm inclined to get rid of the Harrowing altogether), where they will be free to live their lives however they choose (within reason, obviously). There should be regular trips to neighboring villages where they could put their skills to good use. I would also like to have the students able to return home to visit their parents on occasion. And letters should be allowed, obviously (although the towers already allow this, so that's not much of a change). [/quote]
I agree with this.
[quote]And what I am saying is that there IS a better way.[/quote] [quote]Yes, and I also think there are better ways to show the system's flawed than blowing up a church.[/quote]
Hey, he had to mobilize the mages into action. They'd refused to take a stand, to mobilize, to take the threat of their Templar executioners seriously. The fall of the Circles after he blew up the Chantry rather implies that it worked. From a strategic viewpoint, the events in the DA2 epilogue and also in Asunder demonstrate that blowing up the Chantry worked.
[quote]Hey, noble goal, fine. But don't complain about how terrible it is to be a Templar when it's a path YOU chose. [/quote] [quote]I don't recall any templars complaining...?[/quote]
The desire demon Templar in DA:O in the Circle Tower was complaining about his lot, and someone earlier on in this thread suggested that a post be written talking about the trials and tribulations of the poor abused Templars in conjunction with my post about the plight of mages. I was simply explaining why I feel no sympathy for the majority of Templars.
[quote] You want to protect the citizenry but don't want to Tranquil innocent mages? Join the Guard. [/quote] [quote]Guards don't stand a chance against a mage. Templars do.[/quote]
So Aveline doesn't stand a chance against a mage? Honestly with the number of blood mages she kills in my game, I'm rather suspicious of that statement. Templars have an increased resistance to magic, yes, but it's not 100%. I still think that a force of trained Guards is more than a match for your average mage. Aveline herself says that she apprehends a number of apostate mages in a banter with Anders, and then turns them over to the Templars.
[quote]You do know that if you talk to the Templars in Act III, in the Gallows, you discover that Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment? That she was going to kill every mage in the Circle (including Bethany) BEFORE Anders blew up the Chantry? [/quote] [quote]I know she sent the word. Asking for permission is a lot different than actually doing it, though. I don't believe she received an affirmative answer from the Divine (probably because of a conflicting report from Elthina, who tries to tell her that Kirkwall is awesome and there are absolutely no mage problems whatsoever), otherwise she would have annulled the circle long before Anders. [/quote]
Reading up on the Right of Annulment, the codex and wiki state that it is the Grand Cleric who grants permission. Odd that Meredith would have sent to Val Royeaux for permission before the Chantry was destroyed, since the person she should have been asking was Elthina herself. But I suppose Elthina would have denied her permission, and the Divine, having already threatened an Exalted March via Leliana (in the Exiled Prince DLC), would be all too ready to grant it in her stead. [quote]Crazy-cupcakes Knight Commander was ALREADY taking the most drastic action possible. Anders stepped in to make sure that the possibility of Annulment would at least count as tinder to start the revolution.[/quote] [quote]So basically he was willing to make the mages (including Hawke's sister!) a bunch of sacrifical lambs, as long as he proved a point. What a noble guy.[/quote]
Wrong. The mages were already sacrificial lambs- Anders turned them into wolves. Lambs go gently into their Annulment, and wolves FIGHT BACK. This is what Anders did- he galvanized his fellow mages into action, a pebble dropped into a pond whose ripples were felt across Thedas, leading to the fall of the other Circles. And the fact that the Templars separated from the Chantry just to run amok in the countryside, hunting and executing the mages clearly demonstrates that they were chomping at the bit to do so, regardless of Chantry authority.
[quote]I'm not at all convinced that the everyday populace ever finds out exactly what happened with the Chantry. The Circles know, and yes, in Asunder they write him off as a madman, but really, most of the people who were there scattered or died. [/quote] [quote]I can't see any reason why the surviving templars (and Sebastian!) would keep the information quiet. If anything, this would give their causes more ammunition. And what about Hawke's party (especially Varric the storyteller) if you side with the templars? Why wouldn't they want what happened to be known? You think no one will ask the future Viscount what happened?[/quote]
Lol. I forgot about Seb- he's so ineffective most of the time I tend to write him off. I suppose he would spread the word. A Hawke who sides with the mages kills most if not all of the Templars who witnessed the actual explosion, but yes, the surviving Templars would spread (probably wildly varying accounts) of events.
And there's a good question- why the hell doesn't a Viscount!Hawke STAY Viscount? I did one pro-templar run and was frankly surprised at how quickly she was deposed.
[quote]He didn't do anything overtly to demonstrate that HE was the guy who did it. [/quote] [quote]Except launching into a big dramatic speech, glowing blue, banging his staff on the ground and shouting how there could be no compromise. After the dust clears I'm pretty sure his manifestos would be counted as evidence. [/quote]
In any case, with the number of people who went crazy that day, I wouldn't be surprised if the rumor mill became rife with off-the-wall speculation. Some people would say it was Anders, some people would claim it was Orsino masterminding it all. Some people might claim that Hawke themself did it, while others would blame the Qunari. And some might say that Knight-Commander Meredith went insane, and blew up the Chantry herself to pin it on the mages.
Pro-mage speeches and dramatic staff-banging do not an explosion make, especially since most of the eyewitnesses either die or vanish. But I do grant you that there could definitely be some eyewitnesses (notably Seb) who would get the story straight and spread it as far and wide as they could. I appreciate the correction!
[quote]Aveline tells Anders that he needs to turn himself in and admit to blowing up the Chantry. Obviously he doesn't,[/quote]
[quote]This annoyed me a lot. If you're going to make your whole platform be about justice then practice what you preach and be ready to face consequences for your actions.[/quote]
Ah, but banters between the two of them make it clear that he views Aveline as a tool of the Templars. He trusted Hawke to adminster justice as he/she saw fit, and if they let him live, well, clearly justice was served. lol. Ah, my crazed apostate. Mah puir lad wasn't thinking so clearly at the end, eh?
Anders: Kill me! Hawke: [Arishok voice]...no. Anders: So you want me to stay with you? Hawke: Help me kill Templars. Anders: Ok! That's the more just route, definitely! I'm glad you kept me from sacrificing myself when there's so much more Justice I can mete out to the eeeevil Templars. You're the best, Hawke.
...or something like that. XD
[quote]Your ordinary, everyday person wouldn't know Anders if he saw him. The everyday guy just saw a big explosion on the hill, and when he goes to see the rubble he finds out that the Grand Cleric and many people, if not everyone inside, is dead. Apparently magic blew it up (although some conspiracy theorists will no doubt start blaming the Qunari- didn't those guys have explosives?) and the mage who did it is a fearful abomination.[/quote] [quote]The people recognizing (or not recognzing, as it were) Anders isn't the issue here. The issue is what he was: a mage who killed a much-loved clergywoman. It doesn't matter what he looks like; all that matters is what he did. Does the population really need more reasons to fear magic?[/quote]
But don't forget all of the pro-mage populace who might feel that the Grand Cleric and the Templars had it coming. We meet several relatives of mages who express pro-mage sentiments. And not every person is religious- Aveline herself is an avowed skeptic/agnostic.
[quote]Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new ], Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known. [/quote]
Support for her isn't universal, even if she is beloved by the faithful.
[quote]So who is the everyman more afraid of, the 10-foot tall abomination or the demonic knight-commander? I rather doubt that either side has much street cred post-game.[/quote] [quote]Oh, I think the templars will receive a lot of (well-deserved) flak. But that doesn't lessen the impact of what Anders did. The templars didn't blow up a place of worship that is very dear to the vast majority of Thedas. While speculation will most likely be rampant, the emotional impact blowing up a Chantry has will not go away so easily.[/quote]
In Kirkwall, maybe. But read the news- in real life we hear about church bombings, massacres, so on and so forth. A week, a month, a few months go by and peoples' attention shifts, unless, of course, they have a personal stake in the event (i.e. a relative died.) And this is in our modern-day world of mass media. Most of Thedas won't know for weeks or months what happened (given the rate that news travels at) if at all. Kirkwall is still one city in a much larger world, and other areas will shake their heads and wonder what's wrong with the world today, terrible thing, and then go on with their lives, rebuilding from the Blight, running businesses, defending against Qunari incursions, etc. Given that they're likely to hear about Meredith in the same breath, most other areas would simply shake their heads and shrug it off as a bad business all around.
The Chantry in Kirkwall isn't a place of pilgrimage- it was simply the local church. It was a big church, and it housed the Grand Cleric for the region, but stuff happens in Thedas all the time. The Circle in Starkhaven burned down- the Qunari already torched Kirkwall in Act II. How much did you rage against the loss of the Starkhaven Circle, a place we never saw and frankly never cared much about? Extrapolate that to how the majority of Thedas feels about the Chantry in Kirkwall, and you'll see that the biggest ripples come from the fall of the other Circles, and not the destruction of the Chantry itself.
Your average mage-hater in another town will simply shake his fist and go "those blasted mages!" Your average mage-relative and/or mage-supporter will simply go "well, he was one crazy mage among many. My friend/relative wouldn't do that. Mages are good people." and go about their business.
[quote]I can see he feels awful at that moment (and he should). It obviously wasn't a decision he made lightly, and the fact that it does bother him gives him some respect in my book. But the fact that he refuses to go through any sort of penance for his actions and runs away to be a fugitive leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Who's to say that something like this won't happen again, if it's "for the greater good?"[/quote]
If a good strategic target in the war presents itself, I wouldn't be surprised if it DOES happen again. At the very least, my revolutionary!Hawke would say "Hey, gimme the recipe, you idiot. This'll work great on other military targets- we just need to sneak someone inside with the bomb and presto!"
And sitting on his box waiting for Hawke to kill him was his penance. He allowed Hawke to be his judge, jury and executioner, and once the sentence is passed, he'll either be dead or not. In a world of people whose judgement he can't trust, Hawke is the one person he believes will make the right call. If Hawke lets him live, then he probably assumes that there's a good reason for it. And a pro-Templar Hawke who keeps him alive can bring him along to the final fight, where he basically says that he submits to Templar authority after the final fight. He was bugged for quite a while but this is the dialogue you should get.
(non-romance) (romance /creys)
So if you play it a certain way, you can get him to submit to judgement for what he's done. And again, he's not fighting- he simply accepts Hawke's decision and allows it.
[quote]The man has been a healer his entire life- do you suppose that there's a night that goes by where he's not haunted with the screams of people who died at his hands, their gory wounds all too easily imagined by a man who puts broken bodies back together for a living?[/quote] [quote]I'm not sure, actually. He doesn't seem to care if you keep him with you and side with the mages. He just keeps talking about how awesome this revolution is going to be.[/quote]
It will be awesome! LOL!
I jest. Again I think that he's basically deferring to Hawke, and if Hawke feels that his life is better served aiding the revolution, then it's his best-case scenario and I'm not surprised he's amped. He was expecting to die- you have all of that adrenaline running around, he's just completed his goal AND Hawke is supporting him AND he's allowed to live AND he's allowed to stay. Seriously, if I was in his shoes, I'd be jabbering in relief too.
In my imagination at least, once that wears off it's a different story. Considering the amount of regret and self-blame he totes around for years regarding the merging with Justice, not to mention the way he beats himself up for killing or almost-killing Ella (withdrawing from the mage cause for YEARS), I'm pretty sure that the Chantry deaths will weigh on his conscience.
Yes, Merrill is a blood mage. But she fights on your side, loyally and well, and frankly, Marethari's death is her own fault. Merrill brought Hawke along as insurance in case things went sour. There was no guarantee that Merrill couldn't resist being possessed (she WAS shaken by the Fade if you took her along, and swore to do better in the future.) My Hawke would have given her the benefit of a doubt and let things fall out as they would, and if Merrill had incontrovertibly lost control to a demon my Hawke would have killed her. There was no reason for Marethari to sacrifice herself on a "maybe." Hawke and Co. have put down large numbers of demons by Act III.[/quote] The fact that she uses blood magic doesn't bother me so much as her recklessness and naivite.
And it was a pretty big "maybe," and one Marethari wasn't willing to risk given her love for Merrill. I think most people would generally assume that dealing with a pride demon will most likely result in some sort of undesirable outcome. Considering the Dalish are located nearby, she also has to take into consideration the safety of herpeople. Why should she trust Merrill's plan when there's so much to lose? [quote] My point is that every child brought to the Circle Tower did so under duress, and was separated from their family with varying degrees of kicking and screaming and weeping, after manifesting their powers. And yet the Circle is filled with non-abomination mages who arrived and survived without incident, even when undergoing the most traumatic and frightening experience in their young lives.[/quote] I'm not disagreeing? Obviously everyone who experiences an intense emotion doesn't turn into an abomination. But you don't need to feel an intense emotion for magic to get out of control.
[quote]Merrill was given into Keeper training at four years of age. Hawke and Bethany grew up within a home environment. Morrigan was raised by Flemeth. None of these apostate mage children became possessed, despite their lack of being locked in a stone tower under guard by killers.[/quote] Merrill came pretty close, but I digress. Anyway, it's great that some mages are able to have a mentor that can give them the one-on-one support and education they need. But not everyone has that luxury.Conner did have one-on-one help, but clearly it wasn't enough. That's why some form of Circle is needed; that one instructor might prove to be inept.
[quote]My point is that Connor was receiving instruction from an untrustworthy source, and he was doing so while afraid. If he'd had a reliable instructor and been allowed to pursue said studies without fear of being taken away from his family, the demon incident might never have occured at all.[/quote] You're probably right. Which is why it's important to address these concerns in whatever new system emerges after DA3.
[quote]I read the interview, and what I took away from it is that every mage and every situation are different. I don't think that mages are in danger in their sleep unless they happen to make bargains while they're in the Fade. But the big thing that happens with a mage in the Fade, I think, is that they're noticed by demons, and pursued from that point on. [/quote] Which is certainly a cause for concern, especially if they don't realize they're speaking with a demon, or if the demon sells his offer well. [quote] I think Gaider's "unconscious" doesn't mean asleep, but rather means that they can agree without saying "Yes, please possess me!" It's far more likely that a cornered mage, like Olivia for example, can say "Please, somebody help me," and offer a blanket acceptance of any "help" that's offered, demon or no.[/quote] That makes it even more dangerous xD And also more important for an educational system to be put into place.
[quote]To me, becoming possessed is sort of like committing suicide- people might think about it from time to time, and there might be really bad points in their life where they consider it seriously. But none of it counts until they actually take the pills or slit their wrists- that is the point of no return. And just as a person with good counselors, caring doctors, a supportive family, etc. can be helped and educated out of that "I'm going to kill myself" mentality, so can a mage with the proper education and support resist the urge to give themselves over to a demon. I don't think a mage is walking around every second with demons banging on a door in their heads and repeating ad nauseum "no, no, no, no, no, no, no, still no, no..."[/quote] That's how I generally see it as well. As a whole, mages need support and instruction instead of condemnation.
[quote]Hey, he had to mobilize the mages into action. They'd refused to take a stand, to mobilize, to take the threat of their Templar executioners seriously. The fall of the Circles after he blew up the Chantry rather implies that it worked. From a strategic viewpoint, the events in the DA2 epilogue and also in Asunder demonstrate that blowing up the Chantry worked.[/quote] But it wasn't his choice to make. If the mages "refused to take a stand, to mobilize, to take the threat of their Templar executioners seriously," then that's their choice. One that makes me raise an eyebrow, but still their choice to make. He wants them to die "a quick death now instead of a slow one later," but he's refusing to take into consideration their own preferences and just uses their lives to further his own political agenda (which is somewhat similar to the Templars and Chantry, now that I think about it). What about the mage apprentices, who are probably scared ****less and are now doomed to be slaughtered (unless Hawke sides with the mages)? Not only does he have the blood of the Chantry-explosion victims on his hands, but also that of the mages who were slain.
[quote]The desire demon Templar in DA:O in the Circle Tower was complaining about his lot, and someone earlier on in this thread suggested that a post be written talking about the trials and tribulations of the poor abused Templars in conjunction with my post about the plight of mages. I was simply explaining why I feel no sympathy for the majority of Templars.[/quote] The desire demon preys on desires that reside in his heart. Who wouldn't miss company in a place like the Circle? Just because he feels this way doesn't mean he thinks (in a lucid state) that he made the wrong decision in becoming a templar. And just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you act on it. I've yet to come across a templar in any of my playthroughs who laments on how horrible he has it. Becoming a templar assigned to a Circle equires that sacrifices must be made. You can accept those sacrifices, but still miss them.
That being said, I feel little to no sympathy for templars. But I don't blame this poor, demonically possessed man for wanting something he can never have.
[quote]So Aveline doesn't stand a chance against a mage? Honestly with the number of blood mages she kills in my game, I'm rather suspicious of that statement. Templars have an increased resistance to magic, yes, but it's not 100%. I still think that a force of trained Guards is more than a match for your average mage. Aveline herself says that she apprehends a number of apostate mages in a banter with Anders, and then turns them over to the Templars.[/quote] lol I forgot about that Aveline quote. But there's a lot to be considered when evaluating that statement. Were they apprentices? Were they actually malevolent and violent or were they just terrified? How many guards did she have with here? etc.
And I don't believe the lyrium protects them 100%, but even at 50% (I'm using an arbitrary number here; I believe the effectiveness depends on how much lyrium is consumed) it could be a lifesaver.
[quote]Reading up on the Right of Annulment, the codex and wiki state that it is the Grand Cleric who grants permission. Odd that Meredith would have sent to Val Royeaux for permission before the Chantry was destroyed, since the person she should have been asking was Elthina herself. But I suppose Elthina would have denied her permission, and the Divine, having already threatened an Exalted March via Leliana (in the Exiled Prince DLC), would be all too ready to grant it in her stead.[/quote] Yeah, how I figured it went down was that Meredith asked for Elthina's permission, who obviously would turn her down since she doesn't want unnecessary bloodshed. She then asked for the Divine's permission, and the Divine sent Leliana to investigate Kirkwall to get a clear idea of what's going on. I'm not sure if the Divine did grant permission or not; I'm leaning towards "no" given her actions in DA2, but Leliana did get attacked by a bunch of crazed resolutionists. [quote]Wrong. The mages were already sacrificial lambs- Anders turned them into wolves. Lambs go gently into their Annulment, and wolves FIGHT BACK. This is what Anders did- he galvanized his fellow mages into action, a pebble dropped into a pond whose ripples were felt across Thedas, leading to the fall of the other Circles. [/quote] I explained above why I think he had no right to make the decision for every mage in Kirkwall. And he absolutely had to consider the possibility that the templars would kill them all; but why should it matter since they'd prove a point? [quote]And the fact that the Templars separated from the Chantry just to run amok in the countryside, hunting and executing the mages clearly demonstrates that they were chomping at the bit to do so, regardless of Chantry authority.[/quote] I doubt all templars wanted to seperate; I can't see Hadley or Greagoir or Bryant just deciding to pack up their things to go all Inquisition on us.The order itself was under the control of Lambert, but since he might be out of the picture I don't know wtf is going to happen. I'm assuming there's going to be some that stay loyal to the Chantry, while the majority would realize, "hey, the Lord Seeker was right. Why should we have to play nice with the mages when we've got swords and magic-nullifying powers?"
But of course this is pure speculation until DA3 comes out.
[quote]Lol. I forgot about Seb- he's so ineffective most of the time I tend to write him off. I suppose he would spread the word. [/quote] He definitely would, and I would imagine the word of a prince and Chantry brother would have quite a bit of weight. This might be his chance to take charge and be proactive for a change!
[quote]And there's a good question- why the hell doesn't a Viscount!Hawke STAY Viscount? I did one pro-templar run and was frankly surprised at how quickly she was deposed.[/quote] He wasn't deposed, IIRC. He left "mysteriously" (same as the Warden, and a pro-mage Hawke) so he will be able to make vague cameos in the future.
[quote]Pro-mage speeches and dramatic staff-banging do not an explosion make, especially since most of the eyewitnesses either die or vanish. [/quote] What did trigger the explosion, anyway? [quote] Ah, my crazed apostate. Mah puir lad wasn't thinking so clearly at the end, eh?
Anders: Kill me! Hawke: [Arishok voice]...no. Anders: So you want me to stay with you? Hawke: Help me kill Templars. Anders: Ok! That's the more just route, definitely! I'm glad you kept me from sacrificing myself when there's so much more Justice I can mete out to the eeeevil Templars. You're the best, Hawke.
...or something like that. XD[/quote] Yeah, I really wish there were more nuanced dialogue options at the end. What about a "you're-sticking-with-me-because-I-don't-trust-you-to-go-anywhere-else" option? If you pick the "stay with me" option then the implication is that Hawke isn't bothered at all, especially during that Gallows conversation. Ugh.
[quote]But don't forget all of the pro-mage populace who might feel that the Grand Cleric and the Templars had it coming. [/quote] Where are these people? I certainly haven't seen anyone in Kirkwall who expressed a desire to see the Grand Cleric killed (besides Anders, obviously). [quote]We meet several relatives of mages who express pro-mage sentiments. [/quote] And? There's a difference between supporting mage rights and condoning the destruction of a public building. [quote]And not every person is religious- Aveline herself is an avowed skeptic/agnostic. [/quote] And yet Aveline is the one (after Sebastian) most horrified by the explosion. You don't have to be religious to understand what a fundamentally horrible thing the destruction was.
[quote]Support for her isn't universal, even if she is beloved by the faithful.[/quote] Maybe not, but they are clearly the minority. And again, there's a difference between disliking someone and wishing for her death (along with the deaths of many others). [quote]In Kirkwall, maybe. But read the news- in real life we hear about church bombings, massacres, so on and so forth. A week, a month, a few months go by and peoples' attention shifts, unless, of course, they have a personal stake in the event (i.e. a relative died.) And this is in our modern-day world of mass media. Most of Thedas won't know for weeks or months what happened (given the rate that news travels at) if at all. Kirkwall is still one city in a much larger world, and other areas will shake their heads and wonder what's wrong with the world today, terrible thing, and then go on with their lives, rebuilding from the Blight, running businesses, defending against Qunari incursions, etc. Given that they're likely to hear about Meredith in the same breath, most other areas would simply shake their heads and shrug it off as a bad business all around.
The Chantry in Kirkwall isn't a place of pilgrimage- it was simply the local church. It was a big church, and it housed the Grand Cleric for the region, but stuff happens in Thedas all the time. The Circle in Starkhaven burned down- the Qunari already torched Kirkwall in Act II. How much did you rage against the loss of the Starkhaven Circle, a place we never saw and frankly never cared much about? Extrapolate that to how the majority of Thedas feels about the Chantry in Kirkwall, and you'll see that the biggest ripples come from the fall of the other Circles, and not the destruction of the Chantry itself. [/quote] Since Kirkwall and Starkhaven are the two biggest cities in the Free Marches, I would assume that whole region would be affected by it. No one gave a **** about the Starkhaven Circle because it housed mages, sadly enough. I can't see people not caring about the Chantry explosion. Even if they don't care about the people killed because of it, the idea of what is represents--a crazy mage waging war on the "normal people"--illustrates everything the population fears about magic.
[quote]If a good strategic target in the war presents itself, I wouldn't be surprised if it DOES happen again. At the very least, my revolutionary!Hawke would say "Hey, gimme the recipe, you idiot. This'll work great on other military targets- we just need to sneak someone inside with the bomb and presto!"[/quote] I wouldn't even care if he did attack a military target. But he didn't. He went after the Chantry for the "oomph" factor and symbolism, regardless of the innocent lives that will be lost. If someone wants to attack a civilian target then they can't claim to take the moral high road.
[quote]And sitting on his box waiting for Hawke to kill him was his penance. [/quote] No it wasn't. It was him willing to submit to Hawke's desire, even if Hawke decides to let him off easy, which he happily accepts. For someone who claims to Isabela that the victims would deserve justice, he has no problems completely ignoring any justice they would need.
[quote]If Hawke lets him live, then he probably assumes that there's a good reason for it. [/quote] And if that reason directly contradicts any reasonable concept of Justice, he just goes along with it. Ugh. [quote] And a pro-Templar Hawke who keeps him alive can bring him along to the final fight, where he basically says that he submits to Templar authority after the final fight. He was bugged for quite a while but this is the dialogue you should get.[/quote] I did get him to side with the templars in a rivalmance once. I just wish you could get something along the same effect if you rivalmance him and side with the mages (you get the same dialogue as friendship, I think). Especially since the whole point of rivalry was Hawke telling him that his methods were wrong. [quote]So if you play it a certain way, you can get him to submit to judgement for what he's done. And again, he's not fighting- he simply accepts Hawke's decision and allows it.[/quote] So he basically takes the easy way out and relys on someone else instead of taking it in his own hands.
[quote]Again I think that he's basically deferring to Hawke, and if Hawke feels that his life is better served aiding the revolution, then it's his best-case scenario and I'm not surprised he's amped. He was expecting to die- you have all of that adrenaline running around, he's just completed his goal AND Hawke is supporting him AND he's allowed to live AND he's allowed to stay. Seriously, if I was in his shoes, I'd be jabbering in relief too.
In my imagination at least, once that wears off it's a different story. Considering the amount of regret and self-blame he totes around for years regarding the merging with Justice, not to mention the way he beats himself up for killing or almost-killing Ella (withdrawing from the mage cause for YEARS), I'm pretty sure that the Chantry deaths will weigh on his conscience. [/quote] I'm not sure if he would, at least on the Friendship path. On that path, he pretty much merges completely with Justice, and he doesn't know where he begins or ends. That's bound to twist someone's morality. I wouldn't be surprised if he views the casualties as "acceptable" or worse, "just."
Ultimately, I think his situation is a bit more complex than what it seems to be on the surface. I always balk at his aversion to blood magic and consorting with demons. He's such a hypocrite, when you think about it. His motivation in letting Justice in however, came from good intentions.
Wynne is really the only exception to the rule when it comes to mages allowing spirits of the Fade to 'move in'. Rhys, Anders and everyone else seems to prove in general it is a bad idea.
Anders desires for Mages' freedom is good and right, but murdering a bunch of innocents is where he crosses the line. It's one thing to be justified in breaking the law when laws are unjust (The Circle). It's another thing altogether when an individual takes life away from others to make a point.
Is it ethical to kill one person to save five? What action will bring about the least amount of suffering or the greatest amount of happiness? Is the violation of the rights of a group justified if it brings happiness to another group?
Philosophers have been arguing problems like this for a very, very long time, and it's not an easy question to answer. Many people will agree that it is better to flip a switch and kill one then allow five to die, but the answer starts to change when "flip a switch" becomes "push a fat man off a bridge in front of the trolley" or "the person that will die is your mother."
The one thing that utilitarianism tends to stress is that history will eventually prove whether an action was "justified" or not. Were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified, since they ended WWII and saved the lives of countless American soldiers?
Even then we can argue that something better might or might not have happened if an act had or had not been committed.
Militaries have been asking themselves this question for ages- see here for an interesting read:
In the World Wars, conditions were often poor and the bombs not at all accurate. Militaries blitzed anyway, both in hopes of hitting their actual military target and demoralizing the enemy. See here:
It was determined, as it is in every war, that x number of civilian casualties were acceptable in achieving the desired result. Whether Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc. were justified is STILL under debate, as it should be. We as human beings should ask ourselves these questions, should question any decision that places our gain above the rights of others.
Truthfully, this is part of why I loved DA2 so much- you could walk away from it with so many mixed emotions, so many questions, so many dilemmas. Anders as a LI made it even WORSE by involving personal emotion (remember in the Trolley problem, most people said they'd let five people die rather than sacrifice their own mother- this is NOT an inconsequential question) which I adored.
It is my opinion that Anders was justified, for all of the various reasons I've given before. It's not a clean, pretty answer, and I likely won't convince you (and vice versa you are unlikely to convince me ) because we each have to decide for ourselves whether we are moral relativists or absolutists.
But it's fun to debate, aye? And that's what makes Bioware and its writers AWESOME
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Deep and abiding fear of death or loss.
But it is something that is absolutely necessary. 
) because we each have to decide for ourselves whether we are moral relativists or absolutists.
