1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

paul165 wrote...

Promethus2112 wrote...

Justified or not, Anders blowing up the Chantry was probably the most spontaneous and awesome thing that has ever happened in a game. Morrigan would have loved it.

I think Morrigan would have thought it was the stupidest thing she'd ever seen followed by making a snarky remark about no point in freeing sheep but hey that's just me.

I dunno, I can see Morrigan not really seeing the purpose in blowing up the Chantry, but at the same time I don't exactly see her being against the idea either.

[Promethus2112]

Silfren wrote...

paul165 wrote...

Promethus2112 wrote...

Justified or not, Anders blowing up the Chantry was probably the most spontaneous and awesome thing that has ever happened in a game. Morrigan would have loved it.

I think Morrigan would have thought it was the stupidest thing she'd ever seen followed by making a snarky remark about no point in freeing sheep but hey that's just me.

I dunno, I can see Morrigan not really seeing the purpose in blowing up the Chantry, but at the same time I don't exactly see her being against the idea either.

One of Morrigan's lines during DA:O "Now we threaten priests? How fun!!"

Anders just took it to the next level.

[Lazy Jer]

I kind of see Morrigan's reaction to the Chantrisplosion as (...and I'm paraphrasing here) "Eh...". I don't think she'd particularly care one way or another. The Chantry doesn't really effect her directly. At most times she's protected from the Templars themselves by either the Warden, the Koekari Wilds, Flemmeth, her significant intelligence, or the fact that she's in some sort of Wonderland beyond the Eluvean. The priests do little more then label mages as apostates, or yammer on about the Chant of Light. They're easy to ignore.

The fact that someone blew up the Chantry...well she'd just regard it as par for the course. Someone would have done it eventually. As long as she wasn't in it at the time, nor anyone she particularly cares about...well life ends sooner or later anyway.

That's how I see Morrigan seeing it.

[Dakota Strider]

To answer the OP:

Anders Chapter 2, "Perhaps I should try talking to the grand cleric. Maybe she's more reasonable than I thought." (after finding the note on the now dead templar Alrik, that showed both Meredith and the grand cleric were against making all mages tranquil.)

So...Anders went from talking over the problem...to terrorism. And one wonders how many mages deaths did he cause, from retaliation by the templars throughout Thedas?

Hard to put myself in Morrigan's place, but I believe she would think that was a waste of a very powerful weapon, especially when the results would be in causing the revenge killing of many of the people Anders wanted to protect.

[DPSSOC]

Foryou wrote...
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means.

Ok perhaps I'm misreading this but simply believing the ends justify the means doesn't actually justify it.  The end itself has to be justified.  Anders' end, what he was actually looking to do, was to force people into his fight against the Templars.  That was the whole point of Anders' actions, to force Meredith's hand so the mages would have the choice of taking up arms on his side or being slaughtered.

So let's step away from the characters and the situation for a moment.  If I pick a fight with somebody is it ok for me to drag other people into that fight?  Personally I say no.  I could see attempting to rile up the mages being justified, fanning anti-Templar sentiment until the mages themselves rise up in revolt, but blowing up a building just to set off a nut job and force a join me or die decision on every mage in Kirkwall, not so much.

Now don't get me wrong, this was a fight worth picking, but I don't feel Anders was justified in forcing others to fight in it.

[Karlone123]

If it was the Anders from Awakening, he would have put a whoopee cusion in Merediths office then declared himself a martyr for all mage jokers.

[Lazy Jer]

Sorry for dredging up an old topic but I just got to a dialog option that proves that Grand Cleric Elthina didn't just sit on her grand deriere doing nothing.  "I have been talking with them (Meredith and Orsino) both, Orsino is not an unreasonable man."  So HA!  Those people who say that she deserved death because she did nothing to stop the situation from deteriorating in Kirkwall were wrong.

[Goneaviking]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Sorry for dredging up an old topic but I just got to a dialog option that proves that Grand Cleric Elthina didn't just sit on her grand deriere doing nothing.  "I have been talking with them (Meredith and Orsino) both, Orsino is not an unreasonable man."  So HA!  Those people who say that she deserved death because she did nothing to stop the situation from deteriorating in Kirkwall were wrong.

There are those who use continuing, but intentionally fruitless, negotiations as a tool for diluting resistance to oppression.

I'm not saying that's what was intended here, but I am saying that a single line of dialog doesn't actually prove Elthina was acting in good faith. Particularly since it was within her power to force Meredith to stand down from her most provocative actions, and to facilitate a smooth transfer of power after the Viscount's death earlier in the game (i.e. Meredith never should have been allowed to seize control of the city and the only person who could prevent it looked the other way.)

[Lazy Jer]

Goneaviking wrote...

There are those who use continuing, but intentionally fruitless, negotiations as a tool for diluting resistance to oppression.

I'm not saying that's what was intended here, but I am saying that a single line of dialog doesn't actually prove Elthina was acting in good faith. Particularly since it was within her power to force Meredith to stand down from her most provocative actions, and to facilitate a smooth transfer of power after the Viscount's death earlier in the game (i.e. Meredith never should have been allowed to seize control of the city and the only person who could prevent it looked the other way.)

Well maybe but pattern of behavior for the character doesn't really say "corrupt" to me.  After all she knew things were hitting the fan in Kirkwall and she was told to leave.  She refused, siting her oath to the people of Kirkwall has her reason.  I do think that Elthina didn't do enough I think she was overreliant on the makers intervention.  She could have done more.  But I have noted a few people seeming to believe that she did absolutely nothing.  To me the fact that she was negotiating between Orsino and Meredith states otherwise.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Sorry for dredging up an old topic but I just got to a dialog option that proves that Grand Cleric Elthina didn't just sit on her grand deriere doing nothing.  "I have been talking with them (Meredith and Orsino) both, Orsino is not an unreasonable man."  So HA!  Those people who say that she deserved death because she did nothing to stop the situation from deteriorating in Kirkwall were wrong.

Nope.

I've seen that line and I still say she did nothing.

Talking is not solving. Her "compromises" just ensured that the mages continued to be treated like crap. The situation was never resolved or even close to being resolved. Slapping a bandaid on a tumor doesn't make it go away.

Doing something entails making some sort of decision and actually taking some action to see it implemented. Simply being present while Meredith and Orsino bicker doesn't count.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 13 juin 2012 - 04:22 .

[Goneaviking]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Well maybe but pattern of behavior for the character doesn't really say "corrupt" to me.  After all she knew things were hitting the fan in Kirkwall and she was told to leave.  She refused, siting her oath to the people of Kirkwall has her reason.  I do think that Elthina didn't do enough I think she was overreliant on the makers intervention.  She could have done more.  But I have noted a few people seeming to believe that she did absolutely nothing.  To me the fact that she was negotiating between Orsino and Meredith states otherwise.

I tend to agree. My problem with her isn't so much that she did nothing, it's that what she did do was behind closed doors which would have made it easier for her to be disregarded by either party and it meant that no one outside the concerned parties could see what progress may have been made (Anders and players among them).

The most glaring issue for me is that she allowed Meredith to stick her fingers into the political scene in increasingly overt and inappropriate ways. From the time you get off the boat there are guardsman expressing concerns about what happens if the Viscount ever goes against one of her mandates, then when he's killed she takes over as de facto ruler of Kirkwall and apparently blocks anyone else from stepping into the void.

As much as Anders was obsessed with the mages' situation, it seems reasonable to interpret his actions as a strike for independence for the city as a whole. I could actually see non-magical Kirkwallers naming their kids after Anders in aftermath of the great war should the Chantry, or even just the Templars, prove unable to restore their political domination over the city.

[wsandista]

Damn, threads are getting resurrected alot lately.

Yes Anders was justified. Templars need to be eradicated, evil must be punished.

[TEWR]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Sorry for dredging up an old topic but I just got to a dialog option that proves that Grand Cleric Elthina didn't just sit on her grand deriere doing nothing.  "I have been talking with them (Meredith and Orsino) both, Orsino is not an unreasonable man."  So HA!  Those people who say that she deserved death because she did nothing to stop the situation from deteriorating in Kirkwall were wrong.

Eh.... I dunno....

Elthina not removing Meredith from power even after Meredith stopped listening to the Grand Cleric -- let's ignore for a moment the crimes Meredith's hand has perpetrated -- is a sign of Elthina doing nothing REAL to stop the situation from growing worse.

Because she's completely oblvious to the truth of the matter: The Mages don't want the Circle gone. They want Meredith and her like-minded cronies gone and for the Circle system to begin to go back to the way it was before Meredith.

At least, they don't want the Circle gone publicly. Privately I can't say.

Elthina removing Meredith from power wouldn't even be a sign of her siding with the Mages. If she played her cards right, she could easily fool the public into thinking what she's doing is in the Chantry's interests rather then the Mages', and the Mages just happen to benefit as well.

But it's not like all of Kirkwall wasn't already rallying against Meredith in the first place. They were.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 07:49 .

[Fallstar]

 Your viewpoint on Anders' act is always going to depend on whether you think the ends justify the means. 

The result: A large conflict across Thedas that has the potential to eradicate what is essentially a form of slavery. How many people were in that chantry? Perhaps two dozen. Were their lives worth those of the hundreds, eventually thousands of mages who could be spared being made tranquil? You have only to have played the quest with Karl, who begged to die rather than return to a tranquil state, to see what kind of torture this is for mages. So its a balancing act: are the lives lost as a result of Anders destroying the chantry worth the pain and suffering of a vastly larger number of mages in the future? As well as the mages who are wrongly executed by Templars. 
Personally I think it was worth it. But this is an entirely subjective matter that comes down to personal opinion on whether or not it is morally justifiable to sacrifice a few to save many more.


Posted that seven months ago in another thread, my opinion hasn't changed, especially after reading Asunder. Which is a fantastic read by the way and I highly recommend anyone who hasn't read it to take the plunge.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 juin 2012 - 11:39 .

[DPSSOC]

DuskWarden wrote...

 Your viewpoint on Anders' act is always going to depend on whether you think the ends justify the means.

Which is basically decided by what the end is (to you).  Whether or not you feel Anders was justified basically boils down to what you believe to be the logical end result to his actions.  If you believe that it will lead to an end to the oppression of mages, ending nearly a millenia of slavery then yes, Anders was totally justified.  However if you believe the Templars will win in the end then all Anders accomplished was getting a lot of people killed and making things even worse for the mages in which case no, no he was not.  Nor is he justified if you believe that his actions will just result in the start of the next round in the cycle of oppression.

Barring PC intervention in a future game I'm putting my money on the 3rd one.

[Plaintiff]

DPSSOC wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

 Your viewpoint on Anders' act is always going to depend on whether you think the ends justify the means.

Which is basically decided by what the end is (to you).  Whether or not you feel Anders was justified basically boils down to what you believe to be the logical end result to his actions.  If you believe that it will lead to an end to the oppression of mages, ending nearly a millenia of slavery then yes, Anders was totally justified.  However if you believe the Templars will win in the end then all Anders accomplished was getting a lot of people killed and making things even worse for the mages in which case no, no he was not.  Nor is he justified if you believe that his actions will just result in the start of the next round in the cycle of oppression.

Barring PC intervention in a future game I'm putting my money on the 3rd one.

I don't see how the hypothetical end of the war is even relevant. Even if things could be worse, which I doubt, the fact is that the current situation is already untenable. Even if the mages lose the war, the attempt needs to be made. Anders will be justified regardless of the outcome because tyranny should be opposed.

Imagine if everybody chickened out of fighting against injustice because "things might get worse".

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 juin 2012 - 04:56 .

[Goneaviking]

DPSSOC wrote...
Whether or not you feel Anders was justified basically boils down to what you believe to be the logical end result to his actions.

No it doesn't. Not everyone's principles bend for the sake of convenience.

If the explosion had been set off inside the Templar Barracks or Meredith's office in the gallows then the context allows for some wiggle room concerning the morality of Anders' action.

But the murder of a political figure, to say nothing of the regular clergy, and any uninvolved bystanders who happened to be in the proximity, based on presumptions of their political stance and expectations of a beneficial result in the longterm are a completely different matter.

Anders is the other side of the Petrice's coin. Both are eager to force a war on the city, and whoever else can be dragged into it, with the expectation that it will turn out right for their side in the end. Who cares about all the innocents that die as a consequence? Noone apparently, they're just necessary sacrifices for the great leap forward.

[DPSSOC]

Plaintiff wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

 Your viewpoint on Anders' act is always going to depend on whether you think the ends justify the means.

Which is basically decided by what the end is (to you).  Whether or not you feel Anders was justified basically boils down to what you believe to be the logical end result to his actions.  If you believe that it will lead to an end to the oppression of mages, ending nearly a millenia of slavery then yes, Anders was totally justified.  However if you believe the Templars will win in the end then all Anders accomplished was getting a lot of people killed and making things even worse for the mages in which case no, no he was not.  Nor is he justified if you believe that his actions will just result in the start of the next round in the cycle of oppression.

Barring PC intervention in a future game I'm putting my money on the 3rd one.

I don't see how the hypothetical end of the war is even relevant.

 
When citing "the ends justify the means," you must establish what the end is.  While you could look at Anders actions in isolation that makes it a question of does dragging people with no desire to fight into Anders' personal crusade justify the deaths of whoever's in the Chantry and anyone else harmed by the explosion.  That's the "end" of Anders actions if we restrict the scope to the immediate event; he killed Elthina in order to make his fight, their fight..

Essentially I extend the scope because it makes it easier to view Anders as something other than some dick running around pushing people into fights.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...
Nope.

I've seen that line and I still say she did nothing.

Talking is not solving. Her "compromises" just ensured that the mages continued to be treated like crap. The situation was never resolved or even close to being resolved. Slapping a bandaid on a tumor doesn't make it go away.

Doing something entails making some sort of decision and actually taking some action to see it implemented. Simply being present while Meredith and Orsino bicker doesn't count.

"Nope"?

Well nope back at ya.  Doing something entails exactly that.  Some...thing.  Negotiating between two parties at odds with each other is not "slapping a bandaid on a tumor".  It's sitting down with two parties that are at odds and attempting to broker middle ground between the two of them.  She even acknowledges that "Orsino is not an unreasonable man."

Furthermore, since there is no cut scene that shows how active she was in the negotiations, we really can't assume that she was, as you say "Simply being present while Meredith and Orsino bicker...".  She could have been actively seeking a compromise, she may have been simply listening their complaints.  But even if she's just doing that it's a person in power that's actually listening to the First Enchanter's complaints about how the mages are being treated.  But again, no cut scene, so we don't know exactly what went on in the meetings.

But the meetings prove she did something.

[Lazy Jer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Eh.... I dunno....

Elthina not removing Meredith from power even after Meredith stopped listening to the Grand Cleric -- let's ignore for a moment the crimes Meredith's hand has perpetrated -- is a sign of Elthina doing nothing REAL to stop the situation from growing worse.

Because she's completely oblvious to the truth of the matter: The Mages don't want the Circle gone. They want Meredith and her like-minded cronies gone and for the Circle system to begin to go back to the way it was before Meredith.

At least, they don't want the Circle gone publicly. Privately I can't say.

Elthina removing Meredith from power wouldn't even be a sign of her siding with the Mages. If she played her cards right, she could easily fool the public into thinking what she's doing is in the Chantry's interests rather then the Mages', and the Mages just happen to benefit as well.

But it's not like all of Kirkwall wasn't already rallying against Meredith in the first place. They were.

I'm not arguing that she didn't do enough.  She didn't.  She should have taken a firmer stance on the issue with the Viscount, she didn't.  She should have toured the Gallows to see for her self how things looked there, she doesn't seem to have done that.  But what I take issue with is people simply justifiying Anders blowing up the Chantry by lumping Elthina in with Meredith and pretending she's just as bad, or that she simply sitting on her Grand tukus playing the fiddle while Kirkwall burned around her.  She didn't.  The fact that she was trying to negotiate between the two parties shows that she was taking some actions and some responsibility, and that simply writing her off as being just as bad as Meredith cheapens the death

[paleobones]

Anders did the right thing, he made people side with someone, and it was also the right choice for Hawke to side with the Mages (especially if he is a mage) because meredith kills everyone, ten takes steroids and goes crazy, and orsino turns to blood magic to stop being accused of blood magic

[paleobones]

so basically everyone screwed themselves

[LobselVith8]

Promethus2112 wrote...

Justified or not, Anders blowing up the Chantry was probably the most spontaneous and awesome thing that has ever happened in a game. Morrigan would have loved it.

Considering she doesn't respect Circle mages because of their refusal to stand against the templars, she probably would see the merit in taking a stand against the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

[Josielyn]

Since a great number of people don't really understand what the Tranquil are about, I think it is a perfect time to explore it further in-game in DA3. If we did, we would have a reason to expound on the topic. Why not a Tranquil who decided it would be prudent to exercise their free will to become a Grey Warden?