1927 réponses à ce sujet

[LionAri]

Same as RebelAgainstSin81, I think what Anders did is no less than terrorism. Looking back now, I think what Anders did was similar to Boston bombing, which is why it's never justified. It's not done without a reason, but it's still neither justified or forgivable.

Boston bombers did this to shock the Americans to see all oppressions done on Muslin countries.
They believed that even if the Americans don't agree with these oppressions, they are still responsible as they sit back and did nothing and let the governments continue their missile strikes. So they set a bomb in a marathon and killed an 8-year-old boy in order to shock the nation.
It's like Anders blaming the grand cleric for being in the system, disagreeing with the Templar, yet not holding Meredith back. So he resorted to killing them all and starting a war.
It's true that his action changes the system, yet the result is still unknown and the price is too high. To think his action is actually beneficial is being stupidly delusional and thinking that the end justifies the mean. It only gives the zealots more reason to oppress you and bystanders to fear you; in the end you will be alone and no one would remember you except as a blasted abomination.

For me, justifying Anders' act is like justifying Boston bombing and 9/11. My uncle was in the twin tower, he and his wife barely got out and it almost give my grandmother a heart attack. I cannot believe how many people here actually support the deaths of innocence as if 9/11 never happened.

[twilekaoi]

Oh sheesh, I should've came here to share my thoughts on Anders and not the Anders thread; lots of people here share my opinion on him than over there, that's for sure....

I should use the search button more often! I wrote a lot about my thoughts on Anders, but too long to repost here (along with the discussion from others) so anyone willing can just check it out over there.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 09 mai 2013 - 04:48 .

[NoForgiveness]

oooh oohh nercro'd thread!

so, I would not say that Anders was necessarily "justified" and I would never have agreed to help him, if he revealed his plan when he asks. But(I know nothing ever said before the word but counts) he was right, his plan worked. He wasn't destroying the chantry out of "terrorism," he wasn't trying to scare the Templars or the people of Kirkwall into giving the mages what they wanted. He was trying set off a chain reaction that would free thousands of people, and it worked! People are comparing this to 9/11 and the boston thing, but neither of those changed anything, they were acts of hate that only got people killed. But destroying the chantry allows the chance for every mage in thedas to be free. however many people died in the explosion (100? or 200? or even a bit more? or just the few priests we see? or just Elthina? ) is nothing compared to the number of mages in thedas. Granted, if his plan failed I might consider him wrong and kill him. But as it is, justice(the idea not the spirit) wont bring those dead people back and Anders does realize how extreme his action is, and he does want to make up for it by helping the mages.

[LionAri]

MR_PN wrote...

oooh oohh nercro'd thread!

so, I would not say that Anders was necessarily "justified" and I would never have agreed to help him, if he revealed his plan when he asks. But(I know nothing ever said before the word but counts) he was right, his plan worked. He wasn't destroying the chantry out of "terrorism," he wasn't trying to scare the Templars or the people of Kirkwall into giving the mages what they wanted. He was trying set off a chain reaction that would free thousands of people, and it worked! People are comparing this to 9/11 and the boston thing, but neither of those changed anything, they were acts of hate that only got people killed. But destroying the chantry allows the chance for every mage in thedas to be free. however many people died in the explosion (100? or 200? or even a bit more? or just the few priests we see? or just Elthina? ) is nothing compared to the number of mages in thedas. Granted, if his plan failed I might consider him wrong and kill him. But as it is, justice(the idea not the spirit) wont bring those dead people back and Anders does realize how extreme his action is, and he does want to make up for it by helping the mages.

"The end justifies the mean."
"It's okay as long as the majority benefits"
These two phrases sum up your paragraph.

By the way, terrorists DO scare their enemy to give them what they want.
It doesn't matter what their goals are, it's what they do, and it normally includes bombing non-combatants and civilians.
Are you saying that 9/11 and Boston bombing can be justified if America stopped influencing middle east countries afterwards? That those people, including Martin Richard, "died for a good cause"?

Modifié par LionAri, 09 mai 2013 - 09:07 .

[NoForgiveness]

LionAri wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

oooh oohh nercro'd thread!

so, I would not say that Anders was necessarily "justified" and I would never have agreed to help him, if he revealed his plan when he asks. But(I know nothing ever said before the word but counts) he was right, his plan worked. He wasn't destroying the chantry out of "terrorism," he wasn't trying to scare the Templars or the people of Kirkwall into giving the mages what they wanted. He was trying set off a chain reaction that would free thousands of people, and it worked! People are comparing this to 9/11 and the boston thing, but neither of those changed anything, they were acts of hate that only got people killed. But destroying the chantry allows the chance for every mage in thedas to be free. however many people died in the explosion (100? or 200? or even a bit more? or just the few priests we see? or just Elthina? ) is nothing compared to the number of mages in thedas. Granted, if his plan failed I might consider him wrong and kill him. But as it is, justice(the idea not the spirit) wont bring those dead people back and Anders does realize how extreme his action is, and he does want to make up for it by helping the mages.

"The end justifies the mean."
"It's okay as long as the majority benefits"
These two phrases sum up your paragraph.

By the way, terrorists DO scare their enemy to give them what they want.
It doesn't matter what their goals are, it's what they do, and it normally includes bombing non-combatants and civilians.
Are you saying that 9/11 and Boston bombing can be justified if America stopped influencing middle east countries afterwards? That those people, including Martin Richard, "died for a good cause"?

well idk who martin Richard is so that line was irrelevant.... and I don't know enough about the middle east to say if they're cause was good.

and btw terrorism is not an action that someone performs, its an idea that someone uses. one that Anders does NOT care about. he wasn't trying to scare anyone, he was challenging the Templars. 

also I wasn't saying the end justifies the means I was saying that once the means have been done you can't change it, and knowing that, I would support the end.

Modifié par MR_PN, 09 mai 2013 - 10:59 .

[LionAri]

MR_PN wrote...

LionAri wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

oooh oohh nercro'd thread!

so, I would not say that Anders was necessarily "justified" and I would never have agreed to help him, if he revealed his plan when he asks. But(I know nothing ever said before the word but counts) he was right, his plan worked. He wasn't destroying the chantry out of "terrorism," he wasn't trying to scare the Templars or the people of Kirkwall into giving the mages what they wanted. He was trying set off a chain reaction that would free thousands of people, and it worked! People are comparing this to 9/11 and the boston thing, but neither of those changed anything, they were acts of hate that only got people killed. But destroying the chantry allows the chance for every mage in thedas to be free. however many people died in the explosion (100? or 200? or even a bit more? or just the few priests we see? or just Elthina? ) is nothing compared to the number of mages in thedas. Granted, if his plan failed I might consider him wrong and kill him. But as it is, justice(the idea not the spirit) wont bring those dead people back and Anders does realize how extreme his action is, and he does want to make up for it by helping the mages.

"The end justifies the mean."
"It's okay as long as the majority benefits"
These two phrases sum up your paragraph.

By the way, terrorists DO scare their enemy to give them what they want.
It doesn't matter what their goals are, it's what they do, and it normally includes bombing non-combatants and civilians.
Are you saying that 9/11 and Boston bombing can be justified if America stopped influencing middle east countries afterwards? That those people, including Martin Richard, "died for a good cause"?

well idk who martin Richard is so that line was irrelevant.... and I don't know enough about the middle east to say if they're cause was good.

and btw terrorism is not an action that someone performs, its an idea that someone uses. one that Anders does NOT care about. he wasn't trying to scare anyone, he was challenging the Templars. 

also I wasn't saying the end justifies the means I was saying that once the means have been done you can't change it, and knowing that, I would support the end.

Anders's action is clearly unjustified. I really can't see any doubt in this.
Justified: Adjective - Having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason: "the doctors were justified in treating her".

Anders had no way of knowing how this will end, he said it himself, he know this plan may kill all the mages instead, but it's okay since he thinks "the mages would rather have a quick death". In fact, the results are not even decided yet, you only know that the circles are no longer controlled by the chantry. Just because they didn't die now doesn't mean that they will survive the war.

To sum up, Anders blowed up a building full of innocent people to attract attentions from other mages; he wanted to start a war. Just because it may "appear" to be favoring the mages doesn't the mean he foreseen it. Is it a good or legitimate reason to kill innocent people because it "may" inspire other people to do the same?

No. So it shouldn't really be any different from other terrorists we know. "Let's just blow up a building full of people and hope it changes the world!". Anders wished for a death sentence later (hence why he was saying goodbyes and giving away his stuff) and planned to become a matyr. I can't see any good in him after that; he just want a cheap way out of his own mess.

Modifié par LionAri, 09 mai 2013 - 11:56 .

[MisterJB]

Anders is a terrorist, there can be no question about it. He used acts of violence to frigthen and shock people into action in order to achieve a political agenda he finds desirables. Thatis the very definition of terrorism.

And the best punishment for Anders and Vengeance is to convince Anders help the Templars Annul the Circle.

[NoForgiveness]

MisterJB wrote...

And the best punishment for Anders and Vengeance is to convince Anders help the Templars Annul the Circle.

Haha this makes me laugh "lets punish a murderer by making him help murder more innocents. We can be murderers together!"

[MisterJB]

Anders wanted a war. He wanted for every mage in the Circle of Kirkwall to become unwilling martyrs for mage freedom.
Kirkwall is burning because of him and, as far as I'm concerned, he is not getting a cushy ride to the Void. He is going to face the consequences of his action and he will do what must be done to end this conflict.
Meanwhile, that demon wil be able to do nothing but watch, helplessly, as Anders realizes the evil of his actions and works towards correcting them.

[NoForgiveness]

MisterJB wrote...

Anders wanted a war. He wanted for every mage in the Circle of Kirkwall to become unwilling martyrs for mage freedom.
Kirkwall is burning because of him and, as far as I'm concerned, he is not getting a cushy ride to the Void. He is going to face the consequences of his action and he will do what must be done to end this conflict.
Meanwhile, that demon wil be able to do nothing but watch, helplessly, as Anders realizes the evil of his actions and works towards correcting them.

Oh ya... And cornering and slaughtering the innocent would be martyrs, like cattle(or worse) is just the absolute best path to redemption.

[twilekaoi]

MR_PN wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And the best punishment for Anders and Vengeance is to convince Anders help the Templars Annul the Circle.

Haha this makes me laugh "lets punish a murderer by making him help murder more innocents. We can be murderers together!"

Anders expected Meredith to invoke the Right of Annulment; he admits this when confronted by Hawke. Elthina was the only thing stopping Meredith from invoking it to begin with many times over, not just the end of Act 3. Elthina was also the only person stopping the Divine from marching into Kirkwall and treating all its denizens (not just the Circle) as an enemy.

That said, Anders himself considered her to be a "compromise"-- but like any terrorist he knows that a bigger atrocity is a bigger political influence. He willingly sacrificed the city, mages and Kirkwall. In a naive manner, I should add. Like an idiot, he doesn't even know the consequences of unleashing war, judging by his Legacy DLC reactions. Anders' actions may bring another type of Tevinter magister rule,
whether the mages want to or not-- considering all mages everywhere are
now fighting desperately for their lives (i.e.; some will turn to blood
magic, demons, possession).

Also, that "lets punish a murderer by making him help murder more innocents" is the lesser of the two evils. It's not black and white. I sided with the mages and let Anders go (I can't kill a man who saved Bethanys life-- my favorite character), despite me knowing that isn't in the best interest of Thedas, and that siding with the Templars would be the most peaceful solution-- though not factoring in that all the Circles rebel regardless, because of Anders.

[NoForgiveness]

twilekaoi wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And the best punishment for Anders and Vengeance is to convince Anders help the Templars Annul the Circle.

Haha this makes me laugh "lets punish a murderer by making him help murder more innocents. We can be murderers together!"

Anders expected Meredith to invoke the Right of Annulment; he admits this when confronted by Hawke. Elthina was the only thing stopping Meredith from invoking it to begin with many times over, not just the end of Act 3. Elthina was also the only person stopping the Divine from marching into Kirkwall and treating all its denizens (not just the Circle) as an enemy.

That said, Anders himself considered her to be a "compromise"-- but like any terrorist he knows that a bigger atrocity is a bigger political influence. He willingly sacrificed the city, mages and Kirkwall. In a naive manner, I should add. Like an idiot, he doesn't even know the consequences of unleashing war, judging by his Legacy DLC reactions. Anders' actions may bring another type of Tevinter magister rule,
whether the mages want to or not-- considering all mages everywhere are
now fighting desperately for their lives (i.e.; some will turn to blood
magic, demons, possession).

Also, that "lets punish a murderer by making him help murder more innocents" is the lesser of the two evils. It's not black and white. I sided with the mages and let Anders go (I can't kill a man who saved Bethanys life-- my favorite character), despite me knowing that isn't in the best interest of Thedas, and that siding with the Templars would be the most peaceful solution-- though not factoring in that all the Circles rebel regardless, because of Anders.

In war innocents die, whether it's wanted or not it happens. Anders knew this. He also has that naive ideal that every living person deserves freedom and that its worth war and death. And whether it turns out to be another imperium is irrelevant because he thinks it's worth trying(and so do I)

[lil yonce]

MR_PN wrote...

In war innocents die, whether it's wanted or not it happens. Anders knew this. He also has that naive ideal that every living person deserves freedom and that its worth war and death. And whether it turns out to be another imperium is irrelevant because he thinks it's worth trying(and so do I)

So its okay for a mage to decide innocents should die for naive idealism but its not okay for a templar to decide innocents should die to root out corruption and protect a city?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 mai 2013 - 04:12 .

[NoForgiveness]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

In war innocents die, whether it's wanted or not it happens. Anders knew this. He also has that naive ideal that every living person deserves freedom and that its worth war and death. And whether it turns out to be another imperium is irrelevant because he thinks it's worth trying(and so do I)

So its okay for a mage to decide innocents should die for naive idealism but its not okay for a templar to decide innocents should die to root out corruption and protect a city?

The mages wouldn't be choosing to kill the people. Their just an inevitable side effect. the templars are deliberately killing innocents to root out a corruption they planted.

[twilekaoi]

In war innocents die, whether it's wanted or not it happens. Anders knew this. He also has that naive ideal that every living person deserves freedom and that its worth war and death. And whether it turns out to be another imperium is irrelevant because he thinks it's worth trying(and so do I)

War is cruel, yes. But this act isn't an act of war. This act of terrorism led into war, that's the only relation. Terrorism is not war. An act of cruel warfare would be Loghain leaving the King at Ostagar, which involved soldiers/combatants.

Furthermore, history tends to repeats itself. Have you forgotton about the Tevinter Imperium? Magisters in power; suppressing an entire elven people (Fenris), capturing entire villages of people in Thedas to use them as slaves (Andraste), or the supposed, 'mages into Darkspawn' history (Corypheus)? What's not stopping the Imperium, who still hold power, from siding with the dying mages outside of the Imperium? Or them not caring at all for the war, and will just use this opportunity to conquer the rest pof Thedas during this vulnerable time?

What Anders may have done is just switch everything around-- there's a good chance in 10 years time, all non-mages will be suppressed while Magisters rule all of Thedas. That's something DAA Anders and Wynn wanted to stop during their discussion with the Warden about Cumberland.

I support the mages, naively, in fact-- Bethany is a Warden mage and it would kill my Hawke to see her die. But that doesn't mean I'm blindly following the uprising without considering all benefactors of the past and current situation. Or defend Anders on his child-like act of "Justice".

Modifié par twilekaoi, 09 mai 2013 - 04:35 .

[twilekaoi]

MR_PN wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

In war innocents die, whether it's wanted or not it happens. Anders knew this. He also has that naive ideal that every living person deserves freedom and that its worth war and death. And whether it turns out to be another imperium is irrelevant because he thinks it's worth trying(and so do I)

So its okay for a mage to decide innocents should die for naive idealism but its not okay for a templar to decide innocents should die to root out corruption and protect a city?

The mages wouldn't be choosing to kill the people. Their just an inevitable side effect. the templars are deliberately killing innocents to root out a corruption they planted.

Just like how Orsino chose not to use blood magic in a desperate act? If a First Enchanter could resort to it, whose to say an less 'wise" mage wouldn't? That's not even mentioning demonic possession; the demons will definitely use their influence to possess desperate mages. At that point, it's not even the mage anymore, it's a demon.

Also, not all Templars are bad. Meredith was the extremity. There are people in the Templars who believe in their duty, but not in Meredith. They even side with you when Meredith turns on you.

But the difference between the Mages and Templars is that mages can be possessed-- whether they want to or not. And now, Anders has made the situation desperate for all Mages, innocent and bloodthirsty ones like Quentin, Tarohne, etc. I can't stress that enough. I support the freedom for all mages, but not like this.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 09 mai 2013 - 04:33 .

[lil yonce]

MR_PN wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

In war innocents die, whether it's wanted or not it happens. Anders knew this. He also has that naive ideal that every living person deserves freedom and that its worth war and death. And whether it turns out to be another imperium is irrelevant because he thinks it's worth trying(and so do I)

So its okay for a mage to decide innocents should die for naive idealism but its not okay for a templar to decide innocents should die to root out corruption and protect a city?

The mages wouldn't be choosing to kill the people.

Yet one mage decided to speak for all of them and condemned them all to fight templars who just do their duty for a war he's trying to start.

Their just an inevitable side effect.

Again its okay for one mage to decide a Circle annulment is an acceptable "side effect"? That civilians deaths are an acceptable "side effect"?

the templars are deliberately killing innocents to root out a corruption they planted.

They planted? Nah. What about all of the mages who don't turn to blood magic when they could have like the mages connected to the quests The Last Holdouts and On The Loose that return to the Circle through exposition without incident? Why aren't the ones who do use it held accountable for their actions and identified as the renegades they are?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 mai 2013 - 04:55 .

[NoForgiveness]

the meeting thing in Cumberland was Fiona calling for a vote for freedom, which failed. war is the only way for freedom to happen, and Anders provides that opportunity. I said earlier that I wouldn't help him destroy the chantry, had his plan been revealed, but after its done theres no point in wasting that opportunity.

[NoForgiveness]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Again its okay for one mage to decide a Circle annulment is an acceptable "side effect"? That civilians deaths are an acceptable "side effect"?

its one mage or no mage.  someone had to take the first step even if it led to death.

[twilekaoi]

Wynn and DAA Anders also talked about the consequences of war, of an abrupt uprising like DA2 Anders method would be started. Not a Tevinter rule per se, but anyone who reads enough DA lore would ponder that situation.

MR_PN wrote...

war is the only way for freedom to happen, and Anders provides that opportunity. I said earlier that I wouldn't help him destroy the chantry, had his plan been revealed, but after its done theres no point in wasting that opportunity.

No one is debating that, and whether or not you do support him afterwards is irrelevant as that is all based on current situational opinion (DA3 isn't out yet)... However, what you did say earlier is this:

He wasn't destroying the chantry out of "terrorism," he wasn't trying
to scare the Templars or the people of Kirkwall into giving the mages
what they wanted. He was trying set off a chain reaction that would free
thousands of people, and it worked! People are comparing this to 9/11
and the boston thing, but neither of those changed anything, they were
acts of hate that only got people killed.

Justifying the death of innocent people and denying the plain and simple fact that Anders is a terrorist. I have, and will always support the mages (note: not Anders) and will use this "opportunity", though I use that word very loosely. There are too many unstable factors, and the mages may very well be wiped out, instead of being free. The same can be said for non-mages. or the Chantry. It's a gamble involving heavy loss of life on all sides, not an opportunity.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 09 mai 2013 - 05:25 .

[NoForgiveness]

twilekaoi wrote...

There are too many unstable factors, and the mages may very well be wiped out, instead of being free. The same can be said for non-mages. or the Chantry. It's a gamble involving heavy loss of life on all sides, not an opportunity.

**** the risk. life is a risk. the mages have been oppressed for centuries, there's no amount of risk that can match the number of people that have been made tranquil or killed by Templars.

[twilekaoi]

MR_PN wrote...

twilekaoi wrote...

There are too many unstable factors, and the mages may very well be wiped out, instead of being free. The same can be said for non-mages. or the Chantry. It's a gamble involving heavy loss of life on all sides, not an opportunity.

**** the risk. life is a risk. the mages have been oppressed for centuries, there's no amount of risk that can match the number of people that have been made tranquil or killed by Templars.

Life is still life, regardless. A risked life should be that persons own decision, and not a decision made by an idiot who doesn't even know what he wants and how he goes about obtaining it. No, he just blows up a Chantry, sacrifice a Circle, and hopes that it all works out. Nevermind his doubts in Legacy. Or the fact that he is a Renegade against his own self in DAA.

It doesn't work that way.

Also, again, that's all your opinion based on situational events. The same can be said for a mother whose child was killed by a maniac mage. It's not as black and white as you see it. As are my thoughts stated. If you have nothing further to comment on your belief that Anders is not a terrorist, I suspect you are done.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 09 mai 2013 - 06:06 .

[Hazegurl]

Yay another mage thread! LOL!!

Oh wait, it's a Necro'd mage thread, even better :innocent:

No Anders wasn't justified. He was a moron who believed himself more important than he really is and like most mages he's just full of idealistic wishes that have have no bases in reality, and all he's doing in the end is helping mages choose another master who may not be as kind as the Chantry.

twilekaoi wrote...

Life is still life, regardless. A risked life should be that persons own decision, and not a decision made
by an idiot who doesn't even know what he wants and how he goes about obtaining it. No, he just blows up a Chantry, sacrifice a Circle, and hopes that it all works out. Nevermind his doubts in Legacy. Or the fact
that he is a Renegade against his own self in DAA.

Right, I find it hilarious that the same people who preach about mage oppression and the death of mages at the hands of Templars are the same people who then turn around and proclaim that its okay for certain mages to be the rulers over the life and death of other mages.   

Modifié par Hazegurl, 09 mai 2013 - 06:16 .

[NoForgiveness]

twilekaoi wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

twilekaoi wrote...

There are too many unstable factors, and the mages may very well be wiped out, instead of being free. The same can be said for non-mages. or the Chantry. It's a gamble involving heavy loss of life on all sides, not an opportunity.

**** the risk. life is a risk. the mages have been oppressed for centuries, there's no amount of risk that can match the number of people that have been made tranquil or killed by Templars.

Life is still life, regardless. A risked life should be that persons own decision, and not a decision made by an idiot who doesn't even know what he wants and how he goes about obtaining it. No, he just blows up a Chantry, sacrifice a Circle, and hopes that it all works out. Nevermind his doubts in Legacy. Or the fact that he is a Renegade against his own self in DAA.

better the idiot mage then almost any Templar, aside from the few like thrask.

[Jineapple]

Anders wouldn't have been justified, even if his plan worked. Sacrificing innocents for a hope to improve the situation for your own people get's a big NO from me.

But that aside - it's not just that it's unjustified, it's stupid. It doesn't make the situation better. Violence breeds violence (Obviously, as a general statement, that's not true in all cases, but definitely in this one).
After this act of terrorism, mages will be hated and feared more than ever. There are two possible outcomes out of this. Either the mages win and oppress everyone else, like in Tevinter, or the templars win and suppress the mages even more, maybe even try to tranquilize them all.
This can be seen in our world too, a hundred times over, but for some very unfortunate reason, this worst course of action is the one that comes naturally to us.

Obviously Meredith had to be stopped, but this has only made things worse, imo.