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[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Greagoir didn't have the legal right to conduct the Right of Annulment when abominations were taking over the Circle Tower, I don't see why anyone would assume that Meredith would have the legal authority to declare the Rite of Annulment when that responsibility is for the Grand Cleric, and the Grand Cleric alone.

As for the Warden using blood magic, it's been said that blood magic isn't illegal among the Grey Wardens, a point the Warden can stress in Warden's Keep. Whether Leliana and Wynne would've had a problem with the Warden using "Grey Warden anymore because of their Chantry views than they did working with an apostate like Morrigan (who Wynne even addresses as a maleficar) is up to interpretation, I suppose. Wynne is an abomination and Leliana is a former bard.

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

It doesn't.  Otherwise an ambitious Templar would have had a Grand Cleric assassinate ages ago in order to do something that otherwise would not get Chantry approval.  The Templars are a parallel branch of the Chantry (think of them as a military dominican order of the midaeval RCC).  They are NOT priestessess of the Chantry and thus do NOT have the authority of the Clergy.  The Clergy and only the Clergy (Grand Cleric or higher) have the authority to authorize the RIght of Annulment.  It's a check to prevent the Templars from gaining too much power.

As for Lelianna, I still want to know where and why she swallowed her anti-mage pills.  Wynne (a mage herself) was far more anti-mage than Lelianna....but you'd never know it in DA2.

-Polaris

You say that with such certainty.  Based on what?  That the game doesn't tell us your scenario has happened before? 
 
I'd venture to say that the Chantry has a provision for the assassination of a Grand Cleric - as in, someone else takes charge until a new one is elected.

Nice idea, but there's nothing to justify it.

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

The Grand Cleric is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in a given location, second only to the Divine. According to the Hierarchy of the Chantry codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace'."

Why would you think authority would transfer to the Knight-Commander for an act that the Grand Cleric has sole command over? If the threat of an abomination force overwhelming Ferelden wasn't sufficient to warrant Knight-Commander Greagoir to break the law, why would the action of a former Grey Warden standing right in front of Meredith?

Ummm, did you miss that not just the Grand Cleric, but EVERY OTHER MEMBER OF THE CHANTRY was just blown to pieces?  Who, exactly, is left to be in charge?  You really think it's that outrageous an idea that the entire chantry hierarchy being destroyed at once allows the KC to take temporary charge?

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Polaris, you make it sound like Meredith spitefully murdered the last viscount because he dared to challenge her orders. She wasn't even KC at the time, just an ordinary templar. The viscount murdered her predecessor (who was against intervening in politics) and sent an army of mercs against the templars. Eventually she managed to rally a group of knights and took him down. What else should she have done?

At the time people even called her a hero for defeating a tyrant, that's how she got promoted to KC.

The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

[ddv.rsa]

TJPags wrote...

Ummm, did you miss that not just the Grand Cleric, but EVERY OTHER MEMBER OF THE CHANTRY was just blown to pieces?  Who, exactly, is left to be in charge?  You really think it's that outrageous an idea that the entire chantry hierarchy being destroyed at once allows the KC to take temporary charge?

Polaris makes a sound argument but personally I'm not sure. I still think that if it was illegal, someone would have said so.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 03 avril 2011 - 04:42 .

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...


The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

It can be argued that he had no business trying to expel the templars. Secular rulers have no authority over the Chantry, even in their own lands.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Greagoir didn't have the legal right to conduct the Right of Annulment when abominations were taking over the Circle Tower, I don't see why anyone would assume that Meredith would have the legal authority to declare the Rite of Annulment when that responsibility is for the Grand Cleric, and the Grand Cleric alone.

As for the Warden using blood magic, it's been said that blood magic isn't illegal among the Grey Wardens, a point the Warden can stress in Warden's Keep. Whether Leliana and Wynne would've had a problem with the Warden using "Grey Warden anymore because of their Chantry views than they did working with an apostate like Morrigan (who Wynne even addresses as a maleficar) is up to interpretation, I suppose. Wynne is an abomination and Leliana is a former bard.

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

It doesn't.  Otherwise an ambitious Templar would have had a Grand Cleric assassinate ages ago in order to do something that otherwise would not get Chantry approval.  The Templars are a parallel branch of the Chantry (think of them as a military dominican order of the midaeval RCC).  They are NOT priestessess of the Chantry and thus do NOT have the authority of the Clergy.  The Clergy and only the Clergy (Grand Cleric or higher) have the authority to authorize the RIght of Annulment.  It's a check to prevent the Templars from gaining too much power.

As for Lelianna, I still want to know where and why she swallowed her anti-mage pills.  Wynne (a mage herself) was far more anti-mage than Lelianna....but you'd never know it in DA2.

-Polaris

You say that with such certainty.  Based on what?  That the game doesn't tell us your scenario has happened before? 
 
I'd venture to say that the Chantry has a provision for the assassination of a Grand Cleric - as in, someone else takes charge until a new one is elected.

Nice idea, but there's nothing to justify it.

We have the word of Knight Commander Gregoire facing a far more dire situation in Fereldan and he was just as out of touch with the Grand Cleric as Meredith was (for different reasons to be sure but the essential situation was the same). 

Also we are told in multiple places that the Templar is the military arm of the chantry and under the CONTROL of the Clergy....and that means the Grand Cleric and ultimately the Divine.  There are some things Templars aren't permitted and the Rite of Annulment is one of them.  (Tranquilling Harrowed Mages is another btw).

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, maybe the fact that someone just blew the Grand Cleric to hell gives Meredith the right to make the decisions now?

The Grand Cleric is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in a given location, second only to the Divine. According to the Hierarchy of the Chantry codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace'."

Why would you think authority would transfer to the Knight-Commander for an act that the Grand Cleric has sole command over? If the threat of an abomination force overwhelming Ferelden wasn't sufficient to warrant Knight-Commander Greagoir to break the law, why would the action of a former Grey Warden standing right in front of Meredith?

Ummm, did you miss that not just the Grand Cleric, but EVERY OTHER MEMBER OF THE CHANTRY was just blown to pieces?  Who, exactly, is left to be in charge?  You really think it's that outrageous an idea that the entire chantry hierarchy being destroyed at once allows the KC to take temporary charge?

Yes.  It is completely outrageous.  KC Meridith is NOT a member of the Clergy.  There were surely sisters doing work outside the chantry when it exploded.  One of them would take tempory charge.  As for the Rite, proper procedure would have been to lock the mages down and request a Rite from the Divine in Orlais.  However, KC Meridith didn't care about procedure probably because any real Seeker investigation would have resulted in Meridith returning to the Grand Cathedral in Chains.

Also, I put the primary blame on another group of people.  The Seekers.  Aren't they supposed to "deal" with idiots like Meridith BEFORE they get out of control?

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

You say that with such certainty.  Based on what?  That the game doesn't tell us your scenario has happened before? 
 
I'd venture to say that the Chantry has a provision for the assassination of a Grand Cleric - as in, someone else takes charge until a new one is elected.

Nice idea, but there's nothing to justify it.

Based on the Rite of Annulment codex that specifically addresses that only the Grand Cleric has the authority for the Rite of Annulment, and based on Knight-Commander Greagoir having his hands tied when an abomination army was mounting in the Circle Tower and he still had to wait for approval from the Grand Cleric in Denerim before he engaged in the Rite of Annulment.

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Grand Cleric is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in a given location, second only to the Divine. According to the Hierarchy of the Chantry codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region. They travel to Val Royeaux when the College of Clerics convenes, but otherwise remain where they are assigned. All grand clerics are addressed as 'Your Grace'."

Why would you think authority would transfer to the Knight-Commander for an act that the Grand Cleric has sole command over? If the threat of an abomination force overwhelming Ferelden wasn't sufficient to warrant Knight-Commander Greagoir to break the law, why would the action of a former Grey Warden standing right in front of Meredith?

Ummm, did you miss that not just the Grand Cleric, but EVERY OTHER MEMBER OF THE CHANTRY was just blown to pieces?  Who, exactly, is left to be in charge?  You really think it's that outrageous an idea that the entire chantry hierarchy being destroyed at once allows the KC to take temporary charge?

Taking charge, and initiating the Rite of Annulment, are mutually exclusive.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

It can be argued that he had no business trying to expel the templars. Secular rulers have no authority over the Chantry, even in their own lands.

Templars are not permitted to hold titles or be involved in secular politics either.  We all know how much Meridith honors that!  The woman wants to be Viscountess so bad she can taste it and all the nobles know it.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

It can be argued that he had no business trying to expel the templars. Secular rulers have no authority over the Chantry, even in their own lands.

He had no business expelling a foreign force from his own land? I respectfully disagree. It doesn't seem to be an issue of dispute that Lord Threhold was abusing his authority, but the templars only cared when it  involved them losing authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas addresses that the templars actions weren't altruistic:

9:21 Dragon Age: Lord Marlowe Dumar is appointed the new Viscount of Kirkwall, replacing Perrin Threnhold, a tyrant killed by the city’s templars “for the good of all.” It is noted by many, however, that Threnhold’s abuses were only opposed after he tried to have the templar order expelled. It is said that Dumar holds power at the sufferance of the templars, and that their order has grown extremely powerful in Kirkwall during his reign. They have become the center of Chantry strength in eastern Thedas and hold their Circle of Magi in a terrifying, iron grip.

I'm curious to see how Ferelden fairs in light of the Circles emancipating themselves from the Chantry, especially in light of his (and Anora's) support for the Magi boon - the mages of Ferelden governing themselves.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

It can be argued that he had no business trying to expel the templars. Secular rulers have no authority over the Chantry, even in their own lands.

Templars are not permitted to hold titles or be involved in secular politics either.  We all know how much Meridith honors that!  The woman wants to be Viscountess so bad she can taste it and all the nobles know it.

-Polaris

This incident occured before Meredith became KC. The KC of the day made a policy of not becoming involved in politcs.

As for Meredith, as far as I know she holds no titles.

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

This incident occured before Meredith became KC. The KC of the day made a policy of not becoming involved in politcs.

As for Meredith, as far as I know she holds no titles.

I believe Ian is addressing how Meredith became the de facto Viscount after the Qunari invasion by refusing any replacements and is actively trying to extend that control even to the City Guard.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

It can be argued that he had no business trying to expel the templars. Secular rulers have no authority over the Chantry, even in their own lands.

Templars are not permitted to hold titles or be involved in secular politics either.  We all know how much Meridith honors that!  The woman wants to be Viscountess so bad she can taste it and all the nobles know it.

-Polaris

This incident occured before Meredith became KC. The KC of the day made a policy of not becoming involved in politcs.

As for Meredith, as far as I know she holds no titles.

Puleeze.  If you believe that, then I've got some beachfront property in Montana I'm sure you'll love.  Meridith may not have any OFFICIAL titles, but you damn well can be sure that she devoutly wishes she could have them.  She clearly acts like the Viscountess of the City and openly prevets a new Viscount from taking office.  The nobles are against her and they are sure she wants to be the Countess, Chantry legality notwithstading.  As for the KC not being involved in politics, again, what are you smoking?  The Viscount has every right to demand a monopoly of military force in his own cities.  The Templars were out of line.  Period.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

I really don't see the comparison between what happened in Ferelden and what happened in Kirkwall. In Ferelden, the means existed to get approval - send someone to Denerim, which is what the normal procedure would be there.

In Kirkwall, there was no more Chantry. There was no more Grand Cleric. There was no more anybody who could take charge. Dead. All of them. And an immediate emergency. As Meredith says, the people will be out for blood - do you doubt that? As soon as citizens learn a mage blew up the Chantry, they're going nuts. Something has to be done, and someone has to do it.

We're now going from spculation that there is no provision for Meredith to take over, to speculation that there were some sisters of the Chantry still alive outside the Chantry, and that they somehow come before Meredith. Sure, maybe there's an acolyte or a lay sister somewhere. They take over? I find that unlikely. And since there's no basis for your position, mine is equally valid.

Plus, why does Cullen not complain that Meredith doesn't have the authority to call for the Rite? Why do none of the other Templars? Why doesn't Sebastian? Nobody calls it illegal - except for the people arguing it is.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

This incident occured before Meredith became KC. The KC of the day made a policy of not becoming involved in politcs.

As for Meredith, as far as I know she holds no titles.

I believe Ian is addressing how Meredith became the de facto Viscount after the Qunari invasion by refusing any replacements and is actively trying to extend that control even to the City Guard.

Indeed I am.  If you talk with the various nobles after the start of act three, they beg you to become viscount(ess) and worry that Meridith wants to be the 'real' countess, chantry legality or no.  One more thing to blame Ethina for...and the idiot seekers starting with "Sister Nightengale".

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He had no business expelling a foreign force from his own land? I respectfully disagree. It doesn't seem to be an issue of dispute that Lord Threhold was abusing his authority, but the templars only cared when it  involved them losing authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas addresses that the templars actions weren't altruistic:

9:21 Dragon Age: Lord Marlowe Dumar is appointed the new Viscount of Kirkwall, replacing Perrin Threnhold, a tyrant killed by the city’s templars “for the good of all.” It is noted by many, however, that Threnhold’s abuses were only opposed after he tried to have the templar order expelled. It is said that Dumar holds power at the sufferance of the templars, and that their order has grown extremely powerful in Kirkwall during his reign. They have become the center of Chantry strength in eastern Thedas and hold their Circle of Magi in a terrifying, iron grip.

I'm curious to see how Ferelden fairs in light of the Circles emancipating themselves from the Chantry, especially in light of his (and Anora's) support for the Magi boon - the mages of Ferelden governing themselves.

Generally I agree that a ruler has the right to expel foreign forces. But any Andrastian state, as Kirkwall is, is bound to accomodate the Chantry and its templars. And from what I can tell, most templars in a given region are recruited locally.

Anyway, Varric says all the Circles rebelled. Apparently no matter how much one does for the mages in Ferelden, they want more.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The last Viscount tried to expel the templars and was killed because of that specific action. The templars didn't do anything about his actions until they specifically involved his attempt to expel the templars from Kirkwall. The last Viscount, Perrin Threnhold, was killed because he took action against the templars, which is why Lord Viscount Marlowe Dumar has so little authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas that Bioware released indicated that the templars control eastern Thedas and Kirkwall, so their efforts were hardly altruistic.

It can be argued that he had no business trying to expel the templars. Secular rulers have no authority over the Chantry, even in their own lands.

He had no business expelling a foreign force from his own land? I respectfully disagree. It doesn't seem to be an issue of dispute that Lord Threhold was abusing his authority, but the templars only cared when it  involved them losing authority in Kirkwall. Even the Timeline of Thedas addresses that the templars actions weren't altruistic:

9:21 Dragon Age: Lord Marlowe Dumar is appointed the new Viscount of Kirkwall, replacing Perrin Threnhold, a tyrant killed by the city’s templars “for the good of all.” It is noted by many, however, that Threnhold’s abuses were only opposed after he tried to have the templar order expelled. It is said that Dumar holds power at the sufferance of the templars, and that their order has grown extremely powerful in Kirkwall during his reign. They have become the center of Chantry strength in eastern Thedas and hold their Circle of Magi in a terrifying, iron grip.

I'm curious to see how Ferelden fairs in light of the Circles emancipating themselves from the Chantry, especially in light of his (and Anora's) support for the Magi boon - the mages of Ferelden governing themselves.

To paraphrase David Gaider, "Codex entries are written by people from Thedas, and have been known to be wrong".

That said, Templars come with mage circles . . .mage circles come with the Chantry . . .Chantry comes with religion.  Don't think Templars can just be expelled like that, without completely abondoning the religion.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

I really don't see the comparison between what happened in Ferelden and what happened in Kirkwall. In Ferelden, the means existed to get approval - send someone to Denerim, which is what the normal procedure would be there.

The comparison focuses on who has the authority to call for the Rite of Annulment, and whether there are any exceptions. Even a civil war and the threat of abominations taking over the Circle Tower didn't grant Greagoir the right to enact the Rite of Annulment.

TJPags wrote...

In Kirkwall, there was no more Chantry. There was no more Grand Cleric. There was no more anybody who could take charge. Dead. All of them. And an immediate emergency. As Meredith says, the people will be out for blood - do you doubt that? As soon as citizens learn a mage blew up the Chantry, they're going nuts. Something has to be done, and someone has to do it.

Again, Knight-Commander Meredith went beyond the scope of her position by enacting the Rite when she had no legal right to. She isn't the Grand Cleric, she has no power to eliminate the mages.

TJPags wrote...

We're now going from spculation that there is no provision for Meredith to take over, to speculation that there were some sisters of the Chantry still alive outside the Chantry, and that they somehow come before Meredith. Sure, maybe there's an acolyte or a lay sister somewhere. They take over? I find that unlikely. And since there's no basis for your position, mine is equally valid.

You're providing speculation that contradicts what we know from the storyline and the codex. Meredith had no legal right to call for the Rite of Annulment; she isn't the Grand Cleric. She's little more than a dictator who has taken over Kirkwall because the Grand Cleric does nothing to stop her tyranny.

TJPags wrote...

Plus, why does Cullen not complain that Meredith doesn't have the authority to call for the Rite? Why do none of the other Templars? Why doesn't Sebastian? Nobody calls it illegal - except for the people arguing it is.

Sebastian is more focused on why Meredith wants to wipe out the Circle and isn't doing anything about Anders. Since Elthina allowed Meredith to become the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall, nobody assumes that anyone will stop Meredith simply because of legalities, especially when she wants to commit genocide against every man, woman, and child of the Gallows for something an ex-Grey Warden did.

[Vormaerin]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Anyway, Varric says all the Circles rebelled. Apparently no matter how much one does for the mages in Ferelden, they want more.

I think its more that "no matter how much you do for mages in Fereldan, even they are screwed by Anders' and the backlash from his idiocy.   "Oh look, a Fereldan Gray Warden Mage vaporized the Cathedral in Kirkwall."    You don't think that's going to cause a huge problem in Fereldan, where the 'be nicer than normal to mages' policy wasn't very popular with many people anyway?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

I really don't see the comparison between what happened in Ferelden and what happened in Kirkwall. In Ferelden, the means existed to get approval - send someone to Denerim, which is what the normal procedure would be there.

In Kirkwall, there was no more Chantry. There was no more Grand Cleric. There was no more anybody who could take charge. Dead. All of them. And an immediate emergency. As Meredith says, the people will be out for blood - do you doubt that? As soon as citizens learn a mage blew up the Chantry, they're going nuts. Something has to be done, and someone has to do it.

False.  The comparison is quite apt.  In both cases there is clearly defined legal authority for what the Knight Commander wants to do, but it is weeks away and with no assurance it will be immediately available.  In the case of Fereldan, you have a risky overland journey in the middle of a civil war and who knows what sort of political sheninagnas are going on inside the Chantry during said civil war.  As Gregoire opines, 'he is afraid to guess.'  Even so, he clearly understands that he lacks the authority to institute a Rite of Annulment, even when he'd probably be forgiven for exceeding his authority...and Gregoire is actually quite a strong KC. 

In the case of Meridith, there IS valid Chantry authority for a Rite of Annulment even after the Chantry is bombed.  That authority rests with Divine Justina in Val Royaleux and is also weeks away, but is available.  Meridith doesn't even consider that she needs to ask the Divine first before going on a campaign of crazed genocide (using a Rite that's supposed to be of absolute last resort) that even her own Knight Captain questions...and with far less immediate need than what Gregoire faced in Fereldan.

We're now going from spculation that there is no provision for Meredith to take over, to speculation that there were some sisters of the Chantry still alive outside the Chantry, and that they somehow come before Meredith. Sure, maybe there's an acolyte or a lay sister somewhere. They take over? I find that unlikely. And since there's no basis for your position, mine is equally valid.

No it's not.  There are clear codex entries that outline the chain of command for both the Chantry Clergy and the Knights Templar.  They are parallel branches and there are some things that the Chantry simply forbids the Templars to do without permission.....and the Rite of Annulement is one of these.

Plus, why does Cullen not complain that Meredith doesn't have the authority to call for the Rite? Why do none of the other Templars? Why doesn't Sebastian? Nobody calls it illegal - except for the people arguing it is.

Sebastian does openly question the Knight Commander.  "Why are we arguing about the Rite of Annulment when the monster who did this is sitting right here before us."  Meridith clearly has no interest in justice and doesn't care about Elthina at all.  She is doing everything just short of dancing with glee at the thought of destroying all the evil mages at long last.  She barely bothers to hide it.

Given her power, skill, and willingness to murder Viscounts, I find it highly unremarkabl that the Templars say nothing....at least not openly.  They are scared of her.  This happens when you get nutty people in positions of high authority with no one available to bring them in line.  People in a structured hiearchy will do what they are told even if convinced it's wrong or even evil.  That's actually been shown in many groundbreaking (and now illegal) psychological studies in the 1960s.  It's called the "white coat" syndrome.

-Polaris

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Generally I agree that a ruler has the right to expel foreign forces. But any Andrastian state, as Kirkwall is, is bound to accomodate the Chantry and its templars. And from what I can tell, most templars in a given region are recruited locally.

Anyway, Varric says all the Circles rebelled. Apparently no matter how much one does for the mages in Ferelden, they want more.

Kirkwall is "bound" to accomodate the templars because the last ruler who tried to expel them was murdered. It's the reason why Loghain and Maric contemplated removing the Chantry from Ferelden after the occupation (when they supported the Orlesian occupation for over a century), but decided against it.

The mages of Ferelden, like the other mages of the Circles across Thedas, wanted to no longer be slaves of the Chantry (and it's the argument Hawke can use to convince Fenris to side with the mages). I don't blame them.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Puleeze.  If you believe that, then I've got some beachfront property in Montana I'm sure you'll love.  Meridith may not have any OFFICIAL titles, but you damn well can be sure that she devoutly wishes she could have them.  She clearly acts like the Viscountess of the City and openly prevets a new Viscount from taking office.  The nobles are against her and they are sure she wants to be the Countess, Chantry legality notwithstading.  As for the KC not being involved in politics, again, what are you smoking?  The Viscount has every right to demand a monopoly of military force in his own cities.  The Templars were out of line.  Period.

-Polaris

If I believe that the last KC didn't involve himself in politics? I admit I could be wrong, but I'm going by the main in game source on it: a codex entry. It's a letter from the KC to the Divine, telling her it isn't their place to get involved in Kirkwall's politics.

Am I being that naive to work off that? The same entry says the Divine disagreed with him, casting her in a bad light. I don't see why it would be false.

[Vormaerin]

err, 'white coat syndrome' is a hypertensive response to visiting doctors. Its an anxiety disorder.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I really don't see the comparison between what happened in Ferelden and what happened in Kirkwall. In Ferelden, the means existed to get approval - send someone to Denerim, which is what the normal procedure would be there.

The comparison focuses on who has the authority to call for the Rite of Annulment, and whether there are any exceptions. Even a civil war and the threat of abominations taking over the Circle Tower didn't grant Greagoir the right to enact the Rite of Annulment.

TJPags wrote...

In Kirkwall, there was no more Chantry. There was no more Grand Cleric. There was no more anybody who could take charge. Dead. All of them. And an immediate emergency. As Meredith says, the people will be out for blood - do you doubt that? As soon as citizens learn a mage blew up the Chantry, they're going nuts. Something has to be done, and someone has to do it.

Again, Knight-Commander Meredith went beyond the scope of her position by enacting the Rite when she had no legal right to. She isn't the Grand Cleric, she has no power to eliminate the mages.

TJPags wrote...

We're now going from spculation that there is no provision for Meredith to take over, to speculation that there were some sisters of the Chantry still alive outside the Chantry, and that they somehow come before Meredith. Sure, maybe there's an acolyte or a lay sister somewhere. They take over? I find that unlikely. And since there's no basis for your position, mine is equally valid.

You're providing speculation that contradicts what we know from the storyline and the codex. Meredith had no legal right to call for the Rite of Annulment; she isn't the Grand Cleric. She's little more than a dictator who has taken over Kirkwall because the Grand Cleric does nothing to stop her tyranny.

TJPags wrote...

Plus, why does Cullen not complain that Meredith doesn't have the authority to call for the Rite? Why do none of the other Templars? Why doesn't Sebastian? Nobody calls it illegal - except for the people arguing it is.

Sebastian is more focused on why Meredith wants to wipe out the Circle and isn't doing anything about Anders. Since Elthina allowed Meredith to become the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall, nobody assumes that anyone will stop Meredith simply because of legalities, especially when she wants to commit genocide against every man, woman, and child of the Gallows for something an ex-Grey Warden did.

I'm not going to bother to respond in line, I'll do it all here:

1.  In Ferelden, there is still a Grand Cleric to ask.  In Kirkwall, there isn't.  Different enough?
2.  Pure speculation on your part.
3.  You speculate she doesn't have the authority in this situation.  I speculate she does.  I read nothing that says "even if the entire Chantry hierarchy is wiped out by an terroist-abomination, the KC still isn't in charge".  And even if I did, don't argue based on codex entries - they're as fallible as epilogue slides, per DG.
4. So, you argue that nobody argues it's illegal, because nobody cares about legalities, in the middle of trying to convince me its illegal?

And stop - its not every man woman and child of the gallows - its the mage circle.  And I agree its wrong, only because they didn't do it.  But the question is not whether the Rite should have been called, but whether Meredith could do so.

And on that point, you have nothing but your opinion and speculation to support it.  I have speculated she has the authority.  Stalemate.  Have a nice night, or call me when you have some actual evidence and we can resume.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

To paraphrase David Gaider, "Codex entries are written by people from Thedas, and have been known to be wrong".

That said, Templars come with mage circles . . .mage circles come with the Chantry . . .Chantry comes with religion.  Don't think Templars can just be expelled like that, without completely abondoning the religion.

I don't see what's wrong about people noticing that the templars did nothing about the abuses of the last Viscount until he decided that he wanted to remove the templars from Kirkwall.

That said, the Circles no longer come with the templars, since the mages rebelled from their servitude of the Chantry its templars.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Anyway, Varric says all the Circles rebelled. Apparently no matter how much one does for the mages in Ferelden, they want more.

I think its more that "no matter how much you do for mages in Fereldan, even they are screwed by Anders' and the backlash from his idiocy.   "Oh look, a Fereldan Gray Warden Mage vaporized the Cathedral in Kirkwall."    You don't think that's going to cause a huge problem in Fereldan, where the 'be nicer than normal to mages' policy wasn't very popular with many people anyway?

Somehow I don't see either King Alister or Queen Anora being very much impressed with what the dotty old Justina in Orlais thinks.  Unlike Kirkwall, the Templars got shown during the last blight (sometimes rather brutally if the old triggers are enabled) just who is in charge in Fereldan, and it's not the Templars and not the Chantry.  Indeed King Maric and Gen Loghain very nearly kicked the Chantry out on it's ear.  The Chantry is far less popular and has far less authority in Fereldan than perhaps any other Andrastian nation in part because Orlais is hated and the Chantry backed the hated Orlesian occupiers for far too long.

Once again, when did Lelianna get her anti-mage brain transplant?

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

To paraphrase David Gaider, "Codex entries are written by people from Thedas, and have been known to be wrong".

That said, Templars come with mage circles . . .mage circles come with the Chantry . . .Chantry comes with religion.  Don't think Templars can just be expelled like that, without completely abondoning the religion.

I don't see what's wrong about people noticing that the templars did nothing about the abuses of the last Viscount until he decided that he wanted to remove the templars from Kirkwall.

That said, the Circles no longer come with the templars, since the mages rebelled from their servitude of the Chantry its templars.

Don't forget that the Templars would rather extermiate mages than submit to the Chantry removing the one figleaf for popular support they once had. 

-Polaris