137 réponses à ce sujet

[T764]

It was enjoyable enough. The indoctrination was predictable and personally i am not one for the "we will defy you" type speeches but that was about all i didn't like.

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Not really, no.  The way it was handled, playing through it felt just as dramatic as reading your sentence up there does: I saw it, had a second or two thought of "oh, that seems unpleasant, I rather resent the universe for making me do that." And then, throughout the mission, nothing gave me any reason to hope or imagine there could be any other outcome. Nothign confronted me with the seriousness of the decision. It had the impact of reading a sentence, not of living through a thing.

God damn it, I just posted this!  Stop that.  Stop reading my mind.

I'm actually working on a rewrite of Arrival that I think would fix this problem for me, in particular, as sort of a weird kind of writing exercise. Basically, I wanted Shepard to have to talk about what she was doing with someone, to have to confront the reality of it. Then, at the end, I wanted her to be either visibly upset (or visibly triumphant, if she's a renegade), and talk to someone about it.

God damn it, CGG, I was going to do an Arrival rewrite!  I mean for f*ck's sake, woman!  Didn't I just tell you to stop reading my mind?!  Seriously, it's freaking me out.

But with mine, I wanted to focus more on the batarian perspective and the effects of indoctrination. I'd do a prologue of sorts first from Kenson's POV, then switch to Shepard once it was the player's turn to join in on the fun.  I thought about maybe doing two versions, one renegade and one paragon, but ultimately it depends on whether or not I actually do it and what kind of time I have.

You know, I actually considered starting a thread: Let's Fix Arrival, in which I'd invite forumers to rewrite or revise parts of the DLC they had problems with.  For me, my biggest issue was the storytelling, which is why I considered rewriting it in the first place.

Your confrontation with the Scientist at the end of Overlord gives Shepard a chance to let her feelings about what has happened out, to express them, to react. I felt like Arrival had no such release, so the impact was one of

As someone who plays ManShep about 50% of the time, I'm used to Shepard being as emotional as a brick wall.  For me, it's not a matter of how Shepard feels, but how the player feels.  If the player doesn't care, they won't care if Shepard cares, you know?  Of course, giving Shep the chance to voice his/her opinion os important, too, but the player needs a reason to want to voice one in the first place.

And I just realized that I accidentally cut a huge portion of your post out in that last paragraph.  Oops.  Oh well.  People can go back and read it.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

[A bunch of stuff about Overlord that I completely agree with.]

Some people have said they got similar feelings from Arrival, but I personally didn't. If anyone really liked a dramatic arc in Arrival I'd like to hear a more detailed explanation of what you saw in it, because I feel like I have to be missing something, here.

Well, when you take apart Arrival's plot, it is pretty damn dramatic.

During a dangerous recon mission inside hostile batarian space, a deep-cover Alliance operative and her team discover an ageless, mysterious object on a lone asteroid.  Upon further investigation, the operative, Dr. Amanda Kenson, realizes that the artifact is of Reaper origin, and the strange pulses it is giving off are in response to the proximity of its creators.  It is, in effect, a countdown to the galaxy's ultimate destruction, and there is disturbingly little time left.

Kenson and her team resolve to do the only thing they can to slow the Reapers down: destroy the local mass relay.  Working quickly and desperately, they jury-rig the asteroid into a self-propelled cannonball that will launch itself into the heart of the relay, destroying the stabilization rings that protect its massive element zero core.  When the core detonates, it will annihilate the entire system, putting Kenson at her team at an enormous risk if they can't make it out in time and sentencing over 300,000 batarians to death (and countless more undocumented slaves).  But it is worth the cost.

However, as Kenson assembles the resources necessary to complete "the Project," the Reaper artifact begins to subtly warp her mind into a fanatical servant of its masters.  By the time anyone notices its effects, it is too late, and Kenson, now only a mockery of the brave and cunning woman she once was, allows herself to be captured by batarians so that the Project's failure will be blamed on them.

The problem is not in its story, but its presentation.  The player was never given enough reason to sympathize with the batarians, nor with Dr. Kenson.  Plot points were only mentioned in passing, never emphasized or explored.  Had there been just a little more dialogue, a few more journal entries or overheard conversations, it would have been more haunting and heartbreaking than Overlord, but as it is Arrival is simply underdone.

Not that I didn't enjoy it; it just had so much potential to be more than it was.

I agree with you. The implied backstory of Arrival is dramatic and brutal, but they just didn't give me enough places to interface with it. I'm pretty sure that rewriting Amanda Kenson in some way would help a lot... when she betrayed me I felt like I was supposed to feel something, but instead all I thought was "oh, this is happening now apparently." 

But yes, that story you summarized is really awesome, and if my Shep had been able to viscerally experience it, that would have been much more meaningful.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Y'know what would have made Arrival pure awesome? To have actually established contact with the batarian colony, and to keep that contact throughout the last part of the mission. To actually see and hear the results of the "kill 'em all" decision would have added in that weight and meaning that was sorely lacking in the DLC.

[Mavkiel]

Yep, if you had to sludge through an orphanage on your way to the prison it might have had more impact. Or give a credit to a cute bartarian beggar child. *shrugs* Or see some enslaved humans begging you to release them.

Something to tug on your heartstrings, assuming you have a heart

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I agree with you. The implied backstory of Arrival is dramatic and brutal, but they just didn't give me enough places to interface with it. I'm pretty sure that rewriting Amanda Kenson in some way would help a lot... when she betrayed me I felt like I was supposed to feel something, but instead all I thought was "oh, this is happening now apparently."

There was a lot of that, wasn't there?

"The Reapers will be here in two days?"

"Yep."

"You sure?"

"Yep."

"Oh.  Okay."

Yeah, more attention needed to be paid to Kenson as a character.  Hence why both of us had the same idea.  And you know what?  This would have been a great opportunity to get us to care about the mooks we were shooting, but noooo, who wants to make the player feel guilty for shooting mooks?

But yes, that story you summarized is really awesome, and if my Shep had been able to viscerally experience it, that would have been much more meaningful.

Indeed.  If only, if only...

PS: As for the mind-reading thing, don't sweat it.  It's nice to know I'm not the only one who draws these conclusions/gets these ideas.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 05 avril 2011 - 11:53 .

[008Zulu]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But with mine, I wanted to focus more on the batarian perspective and the effects of indoctrination.

Maybe you should include the "Mad Prophet" from Omega. After playing Arrival, it struck me that he may have been exposed to Object Rho. Not fully indoctrinated, but enough exposure to see the Reapers coming along.

[Therefore_I_Am]

T764 wrote...

It was enjoyable enough. The indoctrination was predictable and personally i am not one for the "we will defy you" type speeches but that was about all i didn't like.

When Shepard said "I don't like this one bit" right before everyone turning on him, I wanted to be like.......

"IT'S A TRAP!"

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

However, as Kenson assembles the resources necessary to complete "the Project," the Reaper artifact begins to subtly warp her mind into a fanatical servant of its masters.  By the time anyone notices its effects, it is too late, and Kenson, now only a mockery of the brave and cunning woman she once was, allows herself to be captured by batarians so that the Project's failure will be blamed on them.

I like the rest but don't get this.  Who is going to know, or care, who screwed up the Project once the Reapers arrive and start slaughtering everyone? 

[shep82]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

[A bunch of stuff about Overlord that I completely agree with.]

Some people have said they got similar feelings from Arrival, but I personally didn't. If anyone really liked a dramatic arc in Arrival I'd like to hear a more detailed explanation of what you saw in it, because I feel like I have to be missing something, here.

Well, when you take apart Arrival's plot, it is pretty damn dramatic.

During a dangerous recon mission inside hostile batarian space, a deep-cover Alliance operative and her team discover an ageless, mysterious object on a lone asteroid.  Upon further investigation, the operative, Dr. Amanda Kenson, realizes that the artifact is of Reaper origin, and the strange pulses it is giving off are in response to the proximity of its creators.  It is, in effect, a countdown to the galaxy's ultimate destruction, and there is disturbingly little time left.

Kenson and her team resolve to do the only thing they can to slow the Reapers down: destroy the local mass relay.  Working quickly and desperately, they jury-rig the asteroid into a self-propelled cannonball that will launch itself into the heart of the relay, destroying the stabilization rings that protect its massive element zero core.  When the core detonates, it will annihilate the entire system, putting Kenson at her team at an enormous risk if they can't make it out in time and sentencing over 300,000 batarians to death (and countless more undocumented slaves).  But it is worth the cost.

However, as Kenson assembles the resources necessary to complete "the Project," the Reaper artifact begins to subtly warp her mind into a fanatical servant of its masters.  By the time anyone notices its effects, it is too late, and Kenson, now only a mockery of the brave and cunning woman she once was, allows herself to be captured by batarians so that the Project's failure will be blamed on them.

The problem is not in its story, but its presentation.  The player was never given enough reason to sympathize with the batarians, nor with Dr. Kenson.  Plot points were only mentioned in passing, never emphasized or explored.  Had there been just a little more dialogue, a few more journal entries or overheard conversations, it would have been more haunting and heartbreaking than Overlord, but as it is Arrival is simply underdone.

Not that I didn't enjoy it; it just had so much potential to be more than it was.

I agree with you. The implied backstory of Arrival is dramatic and brutal, but they just didn't give me enough places to interface with it. I'm pretty sure that rewriting Amanda Kenson in some way would help a lot... when she betrayed me I felt like I was supposed to feel something, but instead all I thought was "oh, this is happening now apparently." 

But yes, that story you summarized is really awesome, and if my Shep had been able to viscerally experience it, that would have been much more meaningful.

You both make very good points. Could it have been handled better? Possibly but IMO the way it was done was fine. It got the story across in a dramatic way IMO and was handled well.

[SalsaDMA]

shep82 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

[A bunch of stuff about Overlord that I completely agree with.]

Some people have said they got similar feelings from Arrival, but I personally didn't. If anyone really liked a dramatic arc in Arrival I'd like to hear a more detailed explanation of what you saw in it, because I feel like I have to be missing something, here.

Well, when you take apart Arrival's plot, it is pretty damn dramatic.

During a dangerous recon mission inside hostile batarian space, a deep-cover Alliance operative and her team discover an ageless, mysterious object on a lone asteroid.  Upon further investigation, the operative, Dr. Amanda Kenson, realizes that the artifact is of Reaper origin, and the strange pulses it is giving off are in response to the proximity of its creators.  It is, in effect, a countdown to the galaxy's ultimate destruction, and there is disturbingly little time left.

Kenson and her team resolve to do the only thing they can to slow the Reapers down: destroy the local mass relay.  Working quickly and desperately, they jury-rig the asteroid into a self-propelled cannonball that will launch itself into the heart of the relay, destroying the stabilization rings that protect its massive element zero core.  When the core detonates, it will annihilate the entire system, putting Kenson at her team at an enormous risk if they can't make it out in time and sentencing over 300,000 batarians to death (and countless more undocumented slaves).  But it is worth the cost.

However, as Kenson assembles the resources necessary to complete "the Project," the Reaper artifact begins to subtly warp her mind into a fanatical servant of its masters.  By the time anyone notices its effects, it is too late, and Kenson, now only a mockery of the brave and cunning woman she once was, allows herself to be captured by batarians so that the Project's failure will be blamed on them.

The problem is not in its story, but its presentation.  The player was never given enough reason to sympathize with the batarians, nor with Dr. Kenson.  Plot points were only mentioned in passing, never emphasized or explored.  Had there been just a little more dialogue, a few more journal entries or overheard conversations, it would have been more haunting and heartbreaking than Overlord, but as it is Arrival is simply underdone.

Not that I didn't enjoy it; it just had so much potential to be more than it was.

I agree with you. The implied backstory of Arrival is dramatic and brutal, but they just didn't give me enough places to interface with it. I'm pretty sure that rewriting Amanda Kenson in some way would help a lot... when she betrayed me I felt like I was supposed to feel something, but instead all I thought was "oh, this is happening now apparently." 

But yes, that story you summarized is really awesome, and if my Shep had been able to viscerally experience it, that would have been much more meaningful.

You both make very good points. Could it have been handled better? Possibly but IMO the way it was done was fine. It got the story across in a dramatic way IMO and was handled well.

I have to disagree. If anything the story was not told in a dramatic way at all.

There is no proper attachment at all being made with either the named character, the unnamed 'innocent' goons you plow through or the batarians that are killed as a result of the mass relay destruction.

What severely lacks for such is:

Kenson: Don't know her, don't get to know her. No personality at all. Some proper 'get to know each other' reference would have done wonders. This could have been achieved by the project not having been ready and waiting when we released her, but having to do stuff with her (No, the brief run out from her cell doesn't count as she was not doing anything with you for a big part of the fight) and experience her human side before the flip occurs.

Batarian prisonguards: They were just generic goons. Really. Lack of interaction from them regarding the fact that they were really just trying to do the right thing, and not enough 'emotional baggage' got invested in them.

Human Project Guards: Again, no, zero, zilch, nada emotional involvment with the people they are. The rushed forcing of the plot meant that for all the player cared there was literally no difference to the project guards, the batarian prison guards from before, shadowbroker response force or some random blue sun mercenaries. CArdboard generic goons with nothing given to us prior to combat to give us an attachment with them and possible guilt trip of killing them. We should have gotten something prior that made us feel they were on 'our side', maybe a mission where the base was under attack where we ran around helping different groups of guards with repelling batarians. Seeing/attend wounded guards, conversing with guards that were 'happy we were there to set things right' and stuff like that, possibly even giving out an autograph or two, just to underline things. Instead we got... random goon #4567

Batarian civilians in the system: No involement at all. The number displayed to us might as well display amount of lollipops that would get sour from gas. Even if we ignore that there previously in the game have been almost nothing to give the player any regard for batarians at all, the fact that we are supposed to care about a random number is pretentious at best. They should have put Shepard on the planet before the breakout, wander around, MEET the civilian batarians, experience some hardship they are going through but overcoming, while he searched for clues to where the prison might be located. Give the player SOME form of thing they can refer to when they are to relate to what the number displayed means. As is, there is no relation, and no meaning.

All in all, extremely rushed storytelling and VERY sloppily done.

[Sovereign330]

i think ill try to explain. the arrival dlc is kinda like the ending of halo 2. a lot of fans were disappointed. all right. granted. but., once mass effect 3 comes out, youll see why arrival makes sense. the game starts with shepard on trial. had the dlc arrival not taken place as is, thered be no begninng to mass effect 3. i think bioware took the idea of bridging very seriously and once we get our hands on mass effect 3, i think well appreciate arrival a lot more and give it the credit it deserves as a good piece of dlc.

[IamSithari]

I hate how fans always complain about everything. You guys are whinney little brats who really need to grow up. If you were to play the DLC's as part of a full playthrough and weave them into your story then it would make sense to you. I felt conflicted about exterminating the collectors until I learned they were mindless drones with no self perservation instincts. And besides I liked the idea of killing the SB then stopping a imminent reaper invasion then finally stopping the collectors. Its about creating the best story arc possible for your own enjoyment. Bioware as clearly made you guys rotten with too much treats.