249 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

It was only 4 pages back. Yea, I am lazy.

Thanks!

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Arishok is a third of the Triumverate, so to claim that he has no power whatsoever to take such an action is stupid. He may need to consult the Triumverate, or he may not. We do not know the inner workings of the Triumverate system.

He is the "body". 
The "body" cannot act without the "mind".
The Qun's own rules.

Edit: That is to say, obviously he can make decisions within his directives to further the cause of the Qun, but to risk the ENTIRE NATION on a whim? Foolishness.

The whole of the Qunari are of the opinion that the Bas are incapable of standing up against the might of the Qun. Sten of Origins believes this. He thinks that the Warden would be capable of felling a great number of Qunari in his/her effort, but he still believes the Warden would fail.

What they believe has little to do with reality.

Even disregarding that, if the Arishok doesn't consider the Bas of Kirkwall a threat he is rather smart. Can you name a Bas in Kirkwall (save for Hawke) who actually was a threat to the whole of the Qunari? Meredith's forces, nor the Circle mages, had done no significant damage in their efforts to stop the Qunari. They may have done so in the future, but their efforts at the time are do not reflect that assessment. It is hard to take the claim that they would have performed better in the future, without proof, seriously.

It's obvious that the Viscount held back any effort to remove the Qunari for fear of a response from the Qun.
It would not be easy, but to assume it would be an automatic victory is stupidity.

It should also be noted that the Grand Cleric was not taken to the Keep. It could be that the Templars were protecting her very well. It could be that the Arishok is smarter than you give him credit, and he knows that killing the Grand Cleric would bring a Chantry response sooner than just taking the city while leaving her(and the Chantry) alive and unharmed. Since we don't ever get to look over near the Chantry, we cannot see the situation. So either option is possible.

Yes, killing the Cleric would bring down the Chantry's hammer but I don't see how occupying Kirkwall for any length of time wouldn't do the same.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[Parrk]

I for one have had my fill of these meaningless freedoms.....

[The Angry One]

Parrk wrote...

I for one have had my fill of these meaningless freedoms.....

Under the all knowing Qun and the authority of the Tamassrans your aptitudes have been tested and determined.
You are now Latrine Scrubber 23/B of the Beresaad. Excel in your role.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Even the lore admits that the Arishok is no tactician, merely the best warrior on the field.
Which is utterly counter-productive if you ask me. If the Arishok can't be the tactician surely there should be a role in the beresaad for someone who is?

I don't remember this, could you point me to where?

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Even the lore admits that the Arishok is no tactician, merely the best warrior on the field.
Which is utterly counter-productive if you ask me. If the Arishok can't be the tactician surely there should be a role in the beresaad for someone who is?

I don't remember this, could you point me to where?

The entry for the Arishok in da2guide says:

"Qunari generals are also warriors rather than tacticians, leading from the front, so the Arishok outranks his troops my a measure of strength, physique, and prowess. "

Actually I'm not sure if that's canon or someone making up crap now. Seems illogical to me.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[Camenae]

Warriors who are NOT tacticians make good leaders??? >_<

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...

Warriors who are NOT tacticians make good leaders??? >_<

I personally doubt that's the case. Guides are usually crap anyways.

Unless it's also the "mind" that determines strategies and tactics and the Arishok's job is to execute them only. But I somehow doubt that too.

We need Mary Kirby to clarify.

[The Angry One]

Indeed, this is becoming confusing. Save us devs!

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

The entry for the Arishok in da2guide says:

"Qunari generals are also warriors rather than tacticians, leading from the front, so the Arishok outranks his troops my a measure of strength, physique, and prowess. "

Actually I'm not sure if that's canon or someone making up crap now. Seems illogical to me.

Yeah, it sounds suspect. That they are expected to be where the fighting is is known, so they may mean that they merely don't look at battles from a safe position at the top of a hill. As one may expect a general to act.

It ought to be his place to decide where and how to attack though.

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

He is the "body". 
The "body" cannot act without the "mind".
The Qun's own rules.

Edit: That is to say, obviously he can make decisions within his directives to further the cause of the Qun, but to risk the ENTIRE NATION on a whim? Foolishness.

How do you infer he is risking the Qunari nation?  It is only the Qunari in Kirkwall who are at risk.  The Qunari of Par Vollen are not at risk because they never were.  Arrogance?  Perhaps.  Foolishness?  Not unless the Bas of Thedas had proven they were capable of harming the Qunari in any significant way.  And they haven't.

What they believe has little to do with reality.

Only magic is preventing the Qunari from having overrun the whole of Thedas already.  There are very few warriors that can match the Qunari on the battlefield.  Claims to the contrary are also beliefs that have little to do with reality.

It's obvious that the Viscount held back any effort to remove the Qunari for fear of a response from the Qun.
It would not be easy, but to assume it would be an automatic victory is stupidity.

The reverse is also true.  To assume the Qunari would be put down easily is stupidity.  The Qunari took the city, and only a single man/woman (Hawke) stopped it.  Yes, it could be that if Hawke was not there, the Qunari could eventually have been stopped.  Or it could be that without Hawke the entire city would be under Qunari rule for 3+ years.  My assumption is based on the fact that the people/armies of Kirkwall(save for Hawke) are shown to be incompetant (moreso than any Qunari could be).

Yes, killing the Cleric would bring down the Chantry's hammer but I don't see how occupying Kirkwall for any length of time wouldn't do the same.

Occupying Kirkwall, without harming the Cleric or Chantry would result in an envoy coming to Kirkwall to determine if a peaceful resolution could occur.  It could take months or years before hostilities actually occur between outside nations (not of the Free Marches) and the Qunari in Kirkwall.  In that time, if the Arishok located the book, he would be obligated to leave Kirkwall and get it.  Yes the Divine would be angry... but I don't see war occurring within a year.  Or even two.  And the longer it took for such a decision, the more likely that the Arishok finds where the book is, and leaves Kirkwall for it.  Whether the people of Kirkwall still follow the Qun after the Arishok leaves wouldn't be his concern.

[Avissel]

Herr Uhl wrote...


Yeah, it sounds suspect. That they are expected to be where the fighting is is known, so they may mean that they merely don't look at battles from a safe position at the top of a hill. As one may expect a general to act.

It ought to be his place to decide where and how to attack though.

What he said. I think the wording is just trying to say that they are not passive leaders, giving out orders from safty, but rather fighting with the people they command.

[leeboi2]

I just don't like the fact that they're communists, apart from that people seem genuinly happy, such as the Rivaini and such, they kept to the Qun even after the Exalted Marches pushed the Qunari out of Rivain...

[Avissel]

leeboi2 wrote...

I just don't like the fact that they're communists.

Now all I can think about is the Arishock in an Ushanka.

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

How do you infer he is risking the Qunari nation?  It is only the Qunari in Kirkwall who are at risk.  The Qunari of Par Vollen are not at risk because they never were.  Arrogance?  Perhaps.  Foolishness?  Not unless the Bas of Thedas had proven they were capable of harming the Qunari in any significant way.  And they haven't.

What if it spirals out of control and there's an Exalted March on Par Vollen?
How can they be certain that the Qun will not suffer? They may not lose, but there may be many lives lost.
Yes yes yes INVINCIBLE GREY GIANTS LOL. Let's say, for example, the Chantry forces out maneurver the beresaad and their mages start firebombing Qunari cities? Remember they don't know there's going to be a mage revolt.
The point is it was a rash decision that should have involved the entire Triumverate, not just one arm of it.

Only magic is preventing the Qunari from having overrun the whole of Thedas already.  There are very few warriors that can match the Qunari on the battlefield.  Claims to the contrary are also beliefs that have little to do with reality.

That was 300 years ago. Times change. There are still mages. And Qunari warriors chuck spears.

The reverse is also true.  To assume the Qunari would be put down easily is stupidity.  The Qunari took the city, and only a single man/woman (Hawke) stopped it.  Yes, it could be that if Hawke was not there, the Qunari could eventually have been stopped.  Or it could be that without Hawke the entire city would be under Qunari rule for 3+ years.  My assumption is based on the fact that the people/armies of Kirkwall(save for Hawke) are shown to be incompetant (moreso than any Qunari could be).

Not easily. But they WOULD be put down, that is inevitable.

Occupying Kirkwall, without harming the Cleric or Chantry would result in an envoy coming to Kirkwall to determine if a peaceful resolution could occur.  It could take months or years before hostilities actually occur between outside nations (not of the Free Marches) and the Qunari in Kirkwall.  In that time, if the Arishok located the book, he would be obligated to leave Kirkwall and get it.  Yes the Divine would be angry... but I don't see war occurring within a year.  Or even two.  And the longer it took for such a decision, the more likely that the Arishok finds where the book is, and leaves Kirkwall for it.  Whether the people of Kirkwall still follow the Qun after the Arishok leaves wouldn't be his concern.

Rubbish. The Divine was considering an Exalted March due to Kirkwall's own problems with the Grand Cleric alive and well and in control of the local Chantry.
There's no basis for assuming the Chantry would do anything other than hammer down on the Arishok.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Porenferser]

My biggest wish for DA3 would be to lead the Qunari to Victory over whole Thedas.

(And to those who want to write now how wrong this is, how stupid the Qunari are, or whatever: Spare it. I don't care=])

[Camenae]

I made the mistake of wading into the murky waters of the "Is Anders Justified" thread a couple days ago. This one is much more fun!!

[JabbaDaHutt30]

They treat mages like crap and hunt anyone who defects from the Qun.no want.

[sonofalich]

no thanks, communism always fails when implemented.

[Camenae]

Doesn't Buddhism also have the saying that no matter what one does, as long as one excels at it, then one is worthy? Sounds sort of like the Qun.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Camenae wrote...

I made the mistake of wading into the murky waters of the "Is Anders Justified" thread a couple days ago. This one is much more fun!!

The Qunari are just more fun....

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

What if it spirals out of control and there's an Exalted March on Par Vollen?
How can they be certain that the Qun will not suffer? They may not lose, but there may be many lives lost.
Yes yes yes INVINCIBLE GREY GIANTS LOL. Let's say, for example, the Chantry forces out maneurver the beresaad and their mages start firebombing Qunari cities? Remember they don't know there's going to be a mage revolt.
The point is it was a rash decision that should have involved the entire Triumverate, not just one arm of it.

Again, we have no idea as to how the Triumverate makes decisions.  The claim that the situation in Kirkwall cannot be unilaterally decided is not accurate without more information.  The problem here is that you don't understand that the question is not "How could the Qunari in Par Vollen suffer if we do this?"  The question is "How could the Qunari suffer in Kirkwall if we do not?"

Keep in mind that you still haven't given a legitimate reason for the Qunari to want to leave Kirkwall.  "To prevent a war" only matters to the Bas of Kirkwall if such an action is under the authority of the Arishok.  The only alternatives to the option the Arishok takes are worse options.  None of them is better, because none of them even hint at success, and also put the Qunari in worse positions than they were in to begin with.

That was 300 years ago. Times change. There are still mages. And Qunari warriors chuck spears.

And yet things have stayed the same 300 years later.  Mages still barely perform against Qunari.  And very few warriors are a match to the Qunari.

Not easily. But they WOULD be put down, that is inevitable.

Again, unknown.  It's like my saying the mage rebellion is completely moronic because it will be put down, and all the mages killed.  There is no way of knowing what would happen until it does.  It is not known if the Qunari, without Hawke's intervention, would have been ejected from Kirkwall.  What would be inevitable in such a situation, however, is the death of many more civilians.

Now, I will agree that it would be inevitable that the Qunari would be gone from Kirkwall at some point in the future (should the Arishok have been successful).  But that would not necissarily occur because of force...

Rubbish. The Divine was considering an Exalted March due to Kirkwall's own problems with the Grand Cleric alive and well and in control of the local Chantry.
There's no basis for assuming the Chantry would do anything other than hammer down on the Arishok.

The Divine was considering an Exalted March.  She was also considering the Rite of Annulment.  As well as replacing Meredith (unless she considers fewer options than the Arishok does).  While the Divine is considering the option as a possibility, it does not mean that such an action is garaunteed to occur.  By that I mean, an Exalted March against Kirkwall is not happening after the events of Act 3, will it?  If not, consideration doesn't really mean more than "might."

And there is basis for assuming the Chantry would not lay the hammer down on the Arishok.  Just by virtue of the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall not laying the hammer down upon either the mages or Meredith as she should have.  The Divine may be of the same mind, or she may not be.  I do not think it is the latter.  If only because approval for the Rite of Annulment(nor a replacement for Meredith) never came from Val Royeux during Act 3, after all the information she recieved.  Only consideration for an Exalted March.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 04 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[leeboi2]

The whole Qunari 'invasion' was foiled by one dodgy immigrant, so therefore, they fail.

Modifié par leeboi2, 05 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[TEWR]

you can have sex with 7 foot tall women with horns.




Where do I sign up?

[Chozos]

Well Leeboi2 it depends on how your story went. In one of my playthroughs the qunari got what they were after and left peacefully. The Arishok was not there to invade or to convert he was debating on his own wether to cut the cancer of kirkwall.