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[wulfsturm]

The Angry One wrote...

You know I'm placing my bets right now that the Qun came to Par Vollen because they were fleeing a master race of female warrior elves.

Lesbian female warrior elf amazons, no less.

[Lithuasil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes and the Qun are so much better. They look down upon nobility, but apply the rules of nobility to everyone. Your role is determined at birth, just like nobles.
What is merit and worth to the Qun? Nothing. A farmer will always be a farmer despite any skill they may show, while the Arishok shall always be Arishok even if he is an incompetent fool (like a certain one we know).

No, the Arishok started out like a grunt in the military branch he showed aplitude for (infantry, marines, cavvalry etc). Then he rose through the ranks and was chosen Arishok.

I think he would be deposed if he was an incompetent fool.

Well, that's what hawke did, isn't it?

"I found your trash, Serah"

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

No, the Arishok started out like a grunt in the military branch he showed aplitude for (infantry, marines, cavvalry etc). Then he rose through the ranks and was chosen Arishok.

Heh. Doesn't that go against the philosophy of the Qun? Arishok is not the same role as infantry. Infantry takes orders, Arishok gives them and leads.
Or do they just not follow this when it's not convenient? Hmm..

I think he would be deposed if he was an incompetent fool.

He spends 4 years sitting on his ass in a foreign city, unable to find a relic that others locate under his nose and then launches a failed attack that risks war that the Qun may or may not be prepared for. Oh, and he loses.
Doesn't radiate competence to me.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes and the Qun are so much better. They look down upon nobility, but apply the rules of nobility to everyone. Your role is determined at birth, just like nobles.
What is merit and worth to the Qun? Nothing. A farmer will always be a farmer despite any skill they may show, while the Arishok shall always be Arishok even if he is an incompetent fool (like a certain one we know).

It's actually quite funny that Seamus is so incredibly stupid he doesn't see the irony in this.

The rule of nobility is being a parasite feasting upon others without contributing anything to the society. In the Qun everybody serves, everybody contributes. There are no parasites.
If a child of farmer shows great skill in any other job, it will be assigned to that job. If a person, bred to be Arishok is not intelligent enough that person will be assigned to a lower army rank, Sten or lower.
That smart mouth of yours don't make you any more right than me. I speak the Qun, and Qun is the truth.

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The rule of nobility is being a parasite feasting upon others without contributing anything to the society. In the Qun everybody serves, everybody contributes. There are no parasites.
If a child of farmer shows great skill in any other job, it will be assigned to that job. If a person, bred to be Arishok is not intelligent enough that person will be assigned to a lower army rank, Sten or lower.
That smart mouth of yours don't make you any more right than me. I speak the Qun, and Qun is the truth.

Erm, no. Remember what Sten said? A person is born into their role, it is a fact of life. They can no more change it than they can their race or the colour of their hair (the Qunari don't know what dye is, you see).
If you're gonna embrace the Qun you should at least know what it really is.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

No, the Arishok started out like a grunt in the military branch he showed aplitude for (infantry, marines, cavvalry etc). Then he rose through the ranks and was chosen Arishok.

Heh. Doesn't that go against the philosophy of the Qun? Arishok is not the same role as infantry. Infantry takes orders, Arishok gives them and leads.
Or do they just not follow this when it's not convenient? Hmm..

An infantry man would become a Sten etc. if he shows aplitude for it. The Arishok may come from any branch of the military, just like any of the other Ari can come from any branch in theirs. But the Arishok is always male and Arigena is always female.

Everyone starts out at grunt level, they rise if they show aplitude. The ones that are high in the ranks do the same thing as those low pretty much. An Arishok is expected to fight for example.

I think he would be deposed if he was an incompetent fool.

He spends 4 years sitting on his ass in a foreign city, unable to find a relic that others locate under his nose and then launches a failed attack that risks war that the Qun may or may not be prepared for. Oh, and he loses.
Doesn't radiate competence to me.

Doesn't mean he wasn't the model of competence before that.

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes and the Qun are so much better. They look down upon nobility, but apply the rules of nobility to everyone. Your role is determined at birth, just like nobles.
What is merit and worth to the Qun? Nothing. A farmer will always be a farmer despite any skill they may show, while the Arishok shall always be Arishok even if he is an incompetent fool (like a certain one we know).

It's actually quite funny that Seamus is so incredibly stupid he doesn't see the irony in this.

No, the role of a Qunari is determined when said Qunari reaches the age of maturity (around twelve years old).  Qunari are assigned a role based on their apptitude and various tests the Tamrassan give to the young Qunari.  One cannot be assigned to a role if they have no aptitude for said role.  That would be a waste of the person.

[mesmerizedish]

wulfsturm wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You know I'm placing my bets right now that the Qun came to Par Vollen because they were fleeing a master race of female warrior elves.

Lesbian female warrior elf amazons, no less.

You know just what to say to attract me to a thread

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
. I speak the Qun, and Qun is the truth.

Speaking from inside a society known to actively promote reeducation, lobotomies and brainwashing, doesn't that make you the least reliable source imaginable? :|

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

An infantry man would become a Sten etc. if he shows aplitude for it. The Arishok may come from any branch of the military, just like any of the other Ari can come from any branch in theirs. But the Arishok is always male and Arigena is always female.

Everyone starts out at grunt level, they rise if they show aplitude. The ones that are high in the ranks do the same thing as those low pretty much. An Arishok is expected to fight for example.

Again, promotions seem to go agains the philosophy of a Qun. Well, grunt > Ashaad > Sten or whatever sounds plausable. But outright leader of the military? That is surely beyond the "role" of a mere soldier by their logic.

Doesn't mean he wasn't the model of competence before that.

"Here, take a small squad and go right into a territory full of Darkspawn that we barely fight and no nothing about. This is a great plan instead of seeking out the local Grey Wardens and getting information from them."

This being the Arishok's orders to Sten's group. The same group that got completely slaughtered by Darkspawn thanks to not knowing what they were dealing with at all.

Competence!

[blothulfur]

No.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...


Erm, no. Remember what Sten said? A person is born into their role, it is a fact of life. They can no more change it than they can their race or the colour of their hair (the Qunari don't know what dye is, you see).
If you're gonna embrace the Qun you should at least know what it really is.

Well, I used to read dev's posts too. It's not like Sten is in charge of assigning jobs and know all small details. Sten, of course, is referring to the fact that some jobs are only suitable for certain gender.

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

No, the role of a Qunari is determined when said Qunari reaches the age of maturity (around twelve years old).  Qunari are assigned a role based on their apptitude and various tests the Tamrassan give to the young Qunari.  One cannot be assigned to a role if they have no aptitude for said role.  That would be a waste of the person.

"A person is born into their role" -Sten.
They already prevent men and women from roles their gender is excluded from. A female will never be a soldier, a male will never be an administrator no matter what aptitude they show.

[Lithuasil]

@The Angry one

Qunari don't share a sane persons definition of freedom, maybe they have a different understanding of 'competence' as well

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Well, I used to read dev's posts too. It's not like Sten is in charge of assigning jobs and know all small details. Sten, of course, is referring to the fact that some jobs are only suitable for certain gender.

Sten was speaking overall. He never says that a man or woman can change their roles from those available to their gender.
The Arishok by the way says more or less the same thing, all Qunari are bound to their role but they are free to excel or fail within that role. He never says you can have it changed based on aptitude.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Well, I used to read dev's posts too. It's not like Sten is in charge of assigning jobs and know all small details. Sten, of course, is referring to the fact that some jobs are only suitable for certain gender.

Sten was speaking overall. He never says that a man or woman can change their roles from those available to their gender.
The Arishok by the way says more or less the same thing, all Qunari are bound to their role but they are free to excel or fail within that role. He never says you can have it changed based on aptitude.

They don't change their role. They don't qualify for determining the best role for themselves. There are people trained to do so. You can't change your role, but it may be changed for you if that is the demand of the Qun.

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
. I speak the Qun, and Qun is the truth.

Speaking from inside a society known to actively promote reeducation, lobotomies and brainwashing, doesn't that make you the least reliable source imaginable? :|

No. Because what you describe is not the Qun. Poor bas, some of them think that the very idea of someone actually skilled and knowledgeable finding and assigning a proper occupation for them, best suited for their talents, is brainwashing. They love the gutters they die in. Well, that option can never be taken away.

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

No, the role of a Qunari is determined when said Qunari reaches the age of maturity (around twelve years old).  Qunari are assigned a role based on their apptitude and various tests the Tamrassan give to the young Qunari.  One cannot be assigned to a role if they have no aptitude for said role.  That would be a waste of the person.

"A person is born into their role" -Sten.
They already prevent men and women from roles their gender is excluded from. A female will never be a soldier, a male will never be an administrator no matter what aptitude they show.

Mary Kirby wrote....

Kimarous wrote...

How exactly do the Qunari ultimately determine
their role in life? Are there a series of tests to determine their
strongest aptitute? Did Sten take the G.O.A.T. or something?

The Tamassrans raise all the children, give them their general
education, and evaulate them. Qunari are officially assigned their roles
when they are twelve years old. The Tamassrans have some tests, but
nothing requiring a #2 pencil. They also have something of a head start
on the process, since they are the ones who control the Qunari selective
breeding program.

Excuse me if I don't believe a soldier on the specifics on how the Tamassrans determine a Qunari's role.  Especially when that statement contradicts a developer...

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
. I speak the Qun, and Qun is the truth.

Speaking from inside a society known to actively promote reeducation, lobotomies and brainwashing, doesn't that make you the least reliable source imaginable? :|

No. Because what you describe is not the Qun. Poor bas, some of them think that the very idea of someone actually skilled and knowledgeable finding and assigning a proper occupation for them, best suited for their talents, is brainwashing. They love the gutters they die in. Well, that option can never be taken away.

I'm pretty sure poisonous gas, that takes away most brainfunctions, doesn't pass as "reeducation", even among the most blinded of fools :|

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

They don't change their role. They don't qualify for determining the best role for themselves. There are people trained to do so. You can't change your role, but it may be changed for you if that is the demand of the Qun.

I said have it changed, not change it themselves.
The fact is both Sten and the Arishok, the two best in-game sources for Qunari background both say that roles are predetermined and inflexible.

No. Because what you describe is not the Qun. Poor bas, some of them think that the very idea of someone actually skilled and knowledgeable finding and assigning a proper occupation for them, best suited for their talents, is brainwashing. They love the gutters they die in. Well, that option can never be taken away.

Ketojan is perfect evidence of the sort of brainwashing the Qun undertakes.
Saarebas are mistreated, collared, have their lips stiched, some have their tongues cut out. Yet this guy willingly walks right back to his masters and accepts death. Why? Indoctrination. He's told all his life that he's a worthless demon magnet that must submit to his masters until that's all he can think of.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's a caste system. You are born into your caste. You die a member of your caste. Each caste does a particular thing. The warrior caste landed in Kirkwall, not the brainy caste.

[maegi46]

Editted as I see where the info was gathered now...

Let's not forget the Arishok was destined to lose. Flemeth: "I can never decide. Is it fate or destiny?"

The Arishok lost to the champion of Kirkwall with plot armor and the ability to reload over and over till a favorable outcome is achieved and barring that, a difficulty level that can be placed on casual assuring his defeat even at the hands of an unskilled player proves nothing of his capabilities, Angry One. That's like saying the Blight and the Arch demon were not worthy of their levels of threat because the warden was predetermined to defeat them in 2 years when blights normally last decades or centuries in the case of the first blight.

It only implies that Hawke is supernatural and can defeat anyone or anything. Not how weak or irrelevant his enemies were. You would hardly be the hero of Ferelden or the Champion of Kirkwall if an Arishok or a lil ole Archdemon was capable of thwarting your success.

Modifié par maegi46, 02 avril 2011 - 11:47 .

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Excuse me if I don't believe a soldier on the specifics on how the Tamassrans determine a Qunari's role.  Especially when that statement contradicts a developer...

So Sten and the Arishok are both wrong?

[Lithuasil]

maegi46 wrote...
snip.

You assume that meredith and the templars would have been unable to kill the arishok and the dozen soldiers he had left by that time. But even barring that - 

There is not a merit in existence, by which "breaching a peace contract and attacking a city you have no quarrel with, after it is absolutely certain, that the item you seek is no longer inside said city" is a smart military plan of operation.