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[Abispa]

If they weren't so incredibly scary and evil, ****s would have been funny when comparing Hitler with the **** ideal. I have this image of the Qun being founded by a drunk, overweight, ED-suffering dwarf with one eye and bad hygiene.

Edit: Ooookaaaaaay. So I'm NOT allowed to type the name of a certain political party that came to power in Germany duing the 1930s and were largely responsible for starting WWII. That's good to know.

Modifié par Abispa, 03 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

Ketojan is perfect evidence of the sort of brainwashing the Qun undertakes.
Saarebas are mistreated, collared, have their lips stiched, some have their tongues cut out. Yet this guy willingly walks right back to his masters and accepts death. Why? Indoctrination. He's told all his life that he's a worthless demon magnet that must submit to his masters until that's all he can think of.

As a matter of fact he IS a demon magnet, and the only way to ensure safety of people around him is to keep him leashed.
Unlike bas, he understands that he is a source of danger and that danger he can't reliably control forever. He accepts his fate because that's what's best for everyone else in the Qun. Including himself.
With his master dead, who will ensure he never becomes abomination?

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Ketojan is perfect evidence of the sort of brainwashing the Qun undertakes.
Saarebas are mistreated, collared, have their lips stiched, some have their tongues cut out. Yet this guy willingly walks right back to his masters and accepts death. Why? Indoctrination. He's told all his life that he's a worthless demon magnet that must submit to his masters until that's all he can think of.

As a matter of fact he IS a demon magnet, and the only way to ensure safety of people around him is to keep him leashed.
Unlike bas, he understands that he is a source of danger and that danger he can't reliably control forever. He accepts his fate because that's what's best for everyone else in the Qun. Including himself.
With his master dead, who will ensure he never becomes abomination?

With that kind of attitude then why not do as Orsino says. Drown them at birth. At least it'd spare them a life of torture.
And people call the circle bad.

[AshenEndymion]

maegi46 wrote...

Where do you guys get all of this knowledge of how the inner workings of Qunari society would function? I have seen no codex that says how Tamrassan pick anything. Sten told us a little in DA:O and there are a few more hints. No where have I seen rules or structure stating a lot of what is being said in this thread. Like at 12 years of age blah blah. Are you postulating this knowledge or is it actually written somewhere in the game lore?

http://social.biowar.../3308675/1&lf=8

The Angry One wrote...

So Sten and the Arishok are both wrong?

The Arishok never explains the Qun. He informs Hawke that such is not his duty. He goes into how every person has a role, and that role doesn't change.. but he never specifies how one's role is determined.

And the idea that Sten is mistaken is not far-fetched. Especially since a developer essentially says he is. Unless you're suggesting a developer of the game is wrong?

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 02 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

With his master dead, who will ensure he never becomes abomination?

The new master maybe, that wants to kill him, and wants to kill me for speaking to ketojan, but doesn't commit suicide despite talking to ketojan himself. Just sayin...

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Arishok never explains the Qun. He informs Hawke that such is not his duty. He goes into how every person has a role, and that role doesn't change.. but he never specifies how one's role is determined.

And the idea that Sten is mistaken far-fetched. Especially since a developer essentially says he is. Unless you're suggesting a developer of the game is wrong?

I'm suggesting that offhand information given by a developer on a forum that isn't in any game, not in the codex or any book or supplemental material that you've chosen to interpret this way doesn't necesarrily trump information given in-game by knowledgable sources.

Modifié par The Angry One, 02 avril 2011 - 11:57 .

[blothulfur]

Well I leave the task of converting the unenlightened to my brethren for the Arishok has finally risen from the coma hawke placed him in, to think a qunari could laugh so much at a humans pathetic blows that he fell into such a torpor is a frightening thing.

Anaan esaam Qun.

[AshenEndymion]

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

With his master dead, who will ensure he never becomes abomination?

The new master maybe, that wants to kill him, and wants to kill me for speaking to ketojan, but doesn't commit suicide despite talking to ketojan himself. Just sayin...

Who says he wouldn't kill himself after killing Hawke?  He's not going to just kill himself and trust that Hawke will also do the right thing...

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

With his master dead, who will ensure he never becomes abomination?

The new master maybe, that wants to kill him, and wants to kill me for speaking to ketojan, but doesn't commit suicide despite talking to ketojan himself. Just sayin...

Nor does the Arishok kill himself for speaking to a bas Saarebas like mage Hawke.
"Oh but he respects Hawke!" people say. Yeah? Obviously Hawke is using demons to FORCE the Arishok into respecting her/him!

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

With that kind of attitude then why not do as Orsino says. Drown them at birth. At least it'd spare them a life of torture.
And people call the circle bad.

But that would be a waste. If something can be salvaged, salvaged it will be. A good leashed saarebas can benefit Qun with it's magic.
Circle does not solves the problem or removes threat of abominations. Qun does.

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

With that kind of attitude then why not do as Orsino says. Drown them at birth. At least it'd spare them a life of torture.
And people call the circle bad.

But that would be a waste. If something can be salvaged, salvaged it will be. A good leashed saarebas can benefit Qun with it's magic.
Circle does not solves the problem or removes threat of abominations. Qun does.

How do you know? We've never been to Qunari lands, we don't know what kind of abomination problems they have just as we don't know the problems a mageocracy like Tevinter has.
The Qun aren't exactly honest about their failures.

[Lithuasil]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

With his master dead, who will ensure he never becomes abomination?

The new master maybe, that wants to kill him, and wants to kill me for speaking to ketojan, but doesn't commit suicide despite talking to ketojan himself. Just sayin...

Who says he wouldn't kill himself after killing Hawke?  He's not going to just kill himself and trust that Hawke will also do the right thing...

You realize that neither option is sufficient to convince me that the Avaraad in question is anything other then a massive moron? If you're dangerously crazy, or dangerously crazy but consistent about it, does not change the fact you need to be put down

[maegi46]

Lithuasil wrote...

maegi46 wrote...
snip.

You assume that meredith and the templars would have been unable to kill the arishok and the dozen soldiers he had left by that time. But even barring that - 

There is not a merit in existence, by which "breaching a peace contract and attacking a city you have no quarrel with, after it is absolutely certain, that the item you seek is no longer inside said city" is a smart military plan of operation.

I never commented on how smart it was. My post was to show that you as champion of kirkwall are going to defeat the Arishok either in a duel or his entire army no matter what. That's how it was written to happen. It doesn't make him incompetant to be called Arishok because he was defeated.

Just like at the end of the Ketojan quest when you kill the Qunari soldiers and then try to convince the Saarebas by saying "Perhaps the Arashad was wrong since I defeated him" or something to that effect, the Saarebas replies, "He was not wrong, he spoke the Qun" So falling in battle doesn't disgrace or make the Qunari wrong. Nor does it make them incompetant. Was the Arishok attacking Kirkwall and taking the nobles hostage a smart military move? Actually yeah it was until Hawke and company showed up to kick his ass. Obviously the guard and templars were doing nothing to rectify the situation. That's why the Viscount's head was rolling down the stairs and all the nobles were gathered like cattle as hostages.

I don't know if Meredith could have defeated him or not since she never made a move to do so. It's irrelevant to the story since it was not written that she did anything to remove the Qunari threat. Meredith's concerns were only with subjugating the mages and removing their potential "threat' from Kirkwall.

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
But that would be a waste. If something can be salvaged, salvaged it will be. A good leashed saarebas can benefit Qun with it's magic.
Circle does not solves the problem or removes threat of abominations. Qun does.

And killing a perfectly leashed saarebas, who's will remains firmly bound to the qun, and killing everyone he *could* have talked to, not because he's corrupted, or even might be corrupted, but because he was off the leash for half a day, is a perfectly efficient way of dealing with the matter. Especially when it takes anders all of three seconds to test if someone's possessed or not.

Nope, no waste at all...

[The Angry One]

maegi46 wrote...

I don't know if Meredith could have defeated him or not since she never made a move to do so. It's irrelevant to the story since it was not written that she did anything to remove the Qunari threat. Meredith's concerns were only with subjugating the mages and removing their potential "threat' from Kirkwall.

Remember that Saarebas who bypassed Hawke's plot armour and blasted them, charging up for a kill shot?
Remember who killed him?
Also who teams up with you and Orsino to get you into the palace and charges in moments after you kill the Arishok?

[The Angry One]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Exactly. The sarebaas was having second doubts.

No he wasn't. At no point does he express any doubt about his role.
And if the Averaad things a day is enough time for a member of a Qun to doubt their role... he doesn't have much confidence in it himself does he.

[Lord Gremlin]

blothulfur wrote...

Well I leave the task of converting the unenlightened to my brethren for the Arishok has finally risen from the coma hawke placed him in, to think a qunari could laugh so much at a humans pathetic blows that he fell into such a torpor is a frightening thing.

Anaan esaam Qun.

Blows were pathetic, but running in circles for so long gave Arishok a heart attack. He's no spring chicken, plus too much fried food during his years in Kirkwall... I hope he's doing fine.
BTW tell him they made a statue of a bas stomping his head.

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

I really want to post on this thread all the different reasons why i disagree with the Qun but you have to understant that to me at least the Qunari are just a thinly veiled version of the communist dream in the USSR. all the basic tenants and practices of the two cultures are the same. This means that if we dont ignore the 200 pound metaphor in the room we are just gonna have a political debate on the merits of communism (a debate we should have but cant on this forum). the developers put all these not so subtle political alagories in the game but we cant debate them in these forums because they ban political debate. 

If you really want to discuss the Qun(a political philosophy) I suggest you go to a forum that focuses on political debate.

Modifié par SIx_Foot_Imp, 03 avril 2011 - 12:07 .

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Arishok never explains the Qun. He informs Hawke that such is not his duty. He goes into how every person has a role, and that role doesn't change.. but he never specifies how one's role is determined.

And the idea that Sten is mistaken far-fetched. Especially since a developer essentially says he is. Unless you're suggesting a developer of the game is wrong?

I'm suggesting that offhand information given by a developer on a forum that isn't in any game, not in the codex or any book or supplemental material that you've chosen to interpret this way doesn't necesarrily trump information given in-game by knowledgable sources.

Fair enough.  But I'm not comfortable calling Sten knowledgable about the Qun and the inner workings of the Qunari when Arishok outright says that only the Tamassrans are the only ones able to teach the Qun.  And since the Arishok does not offer any insights on the subject, I defer to the developer.

[Lithuasil]

maegi46 wrote...
Was the Arishok attacking Kirkwall and taking the nobles hostage a smart military move? Actually yeah it was until Hawke and company showed up to kick his ass. Obviously the guard and templars were doing nothing to rectify the situation. That's why the Viscount's head was rolling down the stairs and all the nobles were gathered like cattle as hostages.

I don't know if Meredith could have defeated him or not since she never made a move to do so. It's irrelevant to the story since it was not written that she did anything to remove the Qunari threat. Meredith's concerns were only with subjugating the mages and removing their potential "threat' from Kirkwall.

How was it a smart move, causing massive political consequences, with *no* potential gain? How is attacking a city from the best stance possible, and getting utterly destroyed, a signe of smart tactics?

You realize, that the two military assets Kirkwall has beyond a few dozen guards (the templars and the circle) are both garrisoned in the gallows, across the lake, and didn't participate in the battle at all, aside from a few people that happened to be out shopping at the time?

[Lord Gremlin]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Exactly. The sarebaas was having second doubts.

No he wasn't. At no point does he express any doubt about his role.
And if the Averaad things a day is enough time for a member of a Qun to doubt their role... he doesn't have much confidence in it himself does he.

Yes he was. He was tainted.

Saarebas spent a whole day in a city, full of mad bas saarebas. Without his Arvaard. A whole day in a city where bas saarebas walk the streets. He may be ok, or they coud plant a demon or two inside him. And Qun tells us: safety first.

[The Angry One]

So decades of teaching under the Qun cannot possibly overcome one day of life among bas Saarebas he may not even have come in direct contact with.
Concession that the Qun is a weak and fragile philosophy accepted.