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[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

So decades of teaching under the Qun cannot possibly overcome one day of life among bas Saarebas he may not even have come in direct contact with.
Concession that the Qun is a weak and fragile philosophy accepted.

No. It's just saarebas are dangerous by nature. Decades of teaching can't fix that. In fact, saarebas are leashed because decades of teaching can't make them possession-proof.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...


Erm, no. Remember what Sten said? A person is born into their role, it is a fact of life. They can no more change it than they can their race or the colour of their hair (the Qunari don't know what dye is, you see).
If you're gonna embrace the Qun you should at least know what it really is.

Here is what Mary said about it. Starting at this page.

Mary Kirby wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And they are chosen for what they do at the age of 12 (IIRC), then they get educated for that role and proceed to do it for the rest of their life.

There are promotions. No Arishok has ever taken up the job at the age of 12. Your "role" is "military." or "priesthood." Not, "Second assistant undergardener."

Mary Kirby wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, wouldn't it be the same between a scout and a cannoneer? Or does every soldier start at grunt level?

All soldiers start at grunt level, though in different military branches. Grunts in the navy require slightly different aptitudes than grunts in the infantry or cavalry.

[wulfsturm]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

No. It's just saarebas are dangerous by nature. Decades of teaching can't fix that. In fact, saarebas are leashed because decades of teaching can't make them possession-proof.

Leashed... and have their mouths sewn shut, their eyes blinded. And then used at the whim of their masters.

They're treated worse then dogs or POWs.

Modifié par wulfsturm, 03 avril 2011 - 12:26 .

[Camenae]

The Qunari are too materialistic. Take their sword and they can't go back. Take their book and they can't go back. If I ever fall in love with a Qunari but he wants to satisfy a demand of the Qun that is not mine, then I just take something of his, and then he can never leave. Of course that comes with a 90% chance of him going berserk, but hey what's life without a little risk?

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So decades of teaching under the Qun cannot possibly overcome one day of life among bas Saarebas he may not even have come in direct contact with.
Concession that the Qun is a weak and fragile philosophy accepted.

No. It's just saarebas are dangerous by nature. Decades of teaching can't fix that. In fact, saarebas are leashed because decades of teaching can't make them possession-proof.

Point remains, it takes a mage about three seconds and five mana to test if someone is possessed. Killing the mage, and everyone he might or might not have talked to, is *not* an efficient way to deal with the metter.

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

No. It's just saarebas are dangerous by nature. Decades of teaching can't fix that. In fact, saarebas are leashed because decades of teaching can't make them possession-proof.

So what? Ketojan was still collared and leashed. He was under control. The only question is his belief in his role, which was unshaken.
The Arvaraad obviously questioned that belief after a single day.
The Qun is a sham.

[Lord Gremlin]

Camenae wrote...

The Qunari are too materialistic. Take their sword and they can't go back. Take their book and they can't go back. If I ever fall in love with a Qunari but he wants to satisfy a demand of the Qun that is not mine, then I just take something of his, and then he can never leave. Of course that comes with a 90% chance of him going berserk, but hey what's life without a little risk?

Let me put it this way - you're a bas. Therefore, not a person, but an object. A Qunari will destroy such bas and reclaim what belongs to him.
Of course, if you accept the Qun, maybe one day the demand of your Qun will be satisfied, your Jory shanked, your Warden greyed...

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Let me put it this way - you're a bas. Therefore, not a person, but an object. A Qunari will destroy such bas and reclaim what belongs to him.

And such ultra materialism and moral bankruptcy leads an otherwise good person like Sten to murder civilians and children. Three cheers for the Qun everybody!

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Let me put it this way - you're a bas. Therefore, not a person, but an object. A Qunari will destroy such bas and reclaim what belongs to him.

And such ultra materialism and moral bankruptcy leads an otherwise good person like Sten to murder civilians and children. Three cheers for the Qun everybody!

Sten is a person?

[Lord Gremlin]

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So decades of teaching under the Qun cannot possibly overcome one day of life among bas Saarebas he may not even have come in direct contact with.
Concession that the Qun is a weak and fragile philosophy accepted.

No. It's just saarebas are dangerous by nature. Decades of teaching can't fix that. In fact, saarebas are leashed because decades of teaching can't make them possession-proof.

Point remains, it takes a mage about three seconds and five mana to test if someone is possessed. Killing the mage, and everyone he might or might not have talked to, is *not* an efficient way to deal with the metter.

Actually, it's much harder to check if mage is possessed. That's why templars are paranoid.
@The Angry One: And just how Arvaard could be 100% sure that bas haven't put a demon in Ketojan? What if it's demon talking? There is no way to make sure.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

So what? Ketojan was still collared and leashed. He was under control. The only question is his belief in his role, which was unshaken.
The Arvaraad obviously questioned that belief after a single day.
The Qun is a sham.

If he looked into the mages around Kirkwall when searching, I can see why he would be paranoid.

What I find odd about the situation is that he could talk (Ketojan). Wasn't the point of sewing his mouth shut and (alledgedly) cutting out the tongue was so they wouldn't talk?

[xi ShadowWolf x]

WOO! Let convert to the qun

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

No. It's just saarebas are dangerous by nature. Decades of teaching can't fix that. In fact, saarebas are leashed because decades of teaching can't make them possession-proof.

So what? Ketojan was still collared and leashed. He was under control. The only question is his belief in his role, which was unshaken.
The Arvaraad obviously questioned that belief after a single day.
The Qun is a sham.

An Arvaraad's job is to watch a Saarabas, and ensure that his life is ended should he become an abomination (among other things).  An abomination does not necissarily go about killing things willy-nilly the moment they become one (Look at Anders and Wynne).  But that doesn't mean they aren't abominations.  If a Saarabas is not under the supervision of an Arvaraad, it must be assumed that said Saarabas is an abomination, and that he must die.

That the Saarabas accepts said death means that the Saarabas believes in the Qun.  Not that the Arvaraad disbelieves.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Let me put it this way - you're a bas. Therefore, not a person, but an object. A Qunari will destroy such bas and reclaim what belongs to him.

And such ultra materialism and moral bankruptcy leads an otherwise good person like Sten to murder civilians and children. Three cheers for the Qun everybody!

Bas civilians and children. Just bas. And he had regrets even so.

[Eternal Phoenix]

blothulfur wrote...

You shall know the certainty of true belief and bring the ordered wisdom of the Qun to the tasks you are set in life and thus be made strong in body and soul.

One must also mention free education, mastery of your vocation and respect whatever your position or race.

Anaan esaam Qun.

Ah ha! There you are blothufur! I've been searching for you ever since your "Hawke accepts the Qun?" thread. You keep your profile locked. Now have at you!

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 03 avril 2011 - 12:39 .

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Actually, it's much harder to check if mage is possessed.

Not for anders it isn't. But if you'd argue that a lunatic abomination is much cleverer then any mage who embraces the qun, I won't object. 

[Camenae]

@Herr Uhl,

I winced every time I saw Ketojan's lips straining against the stitches holding them shut, when he tried to talk...that was painful to watch!

[Herr Uhl]

Camenae wrote...

@Herr Uhl,

I winced every time I saw Ketojan's lips straining against the stitches holding them shut, when he tried to talk...that was painful to watch!

He still could talk. What then is the point of sewing it shut? So he won't be able to eat solids?

[The Angry One]

So they keep Saarebas collared and shackled, but have no way to observe and determine demon possession at all? Face it, the Qun's position on mages is pure ignorance and fear.
At least the Circle has some knowledge about the mages under it's charge.

Herr Uhl wrote...

He still could talk. What then is the point of sewing it shut? So he won't be able to eat solids?

Maybe the control rod thing the Arvaraad had loosens the stiches?

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Camenae wrote...

@Herr Uhl,

I winced every time I saw Ketojan's lips straining against the stitches holding them shut, when he tried to talk...that was painful to watch!

He still could talk. What then is the point of sewing it shut? So he won't be able to eat solids?

That's a tough question actually. Should ask Mr. Gaider...

[Camenae]

I thought it was cruel that Hawke had all those questions to ask Ketojan in the tunnel, after fighting the thugs. Good god, woman! Don't you see those stitches....agh painful...

[blothulfur]

Ejid thou lives, I may yet grow to respect such a persistent foe.

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

I thought it was cruel that Hawke had all those questions to ask Ketojan in the tunnel, after fighting the thugs. Good god, woman! Don't you see those stitches....agh painful...

Ha! I thought the same. He's just gurgling! He will only ever gurgle! Stop prodding the poor thing!

[DPSSOC]

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Actually, it's much harder to check if mage is possessed.

Not for anders it isn't.

I've seen Anders' testing method and it seems, flawed, like witch trial flawed.

[Dan-mac RI]

The Qun has it's good and bad sides. It's not a normal society and it's not subject to the same problems. For instance, there is no poverty or hunger which is ubiquitous everywhere else. There would seem to be little crime because hunger and poverty are both major reasons for crime. The Qun is a social contract. Obedience is given in exchange of being free from want, free from outside threats, and free from... having to deal with children, well, for most everyone. I wish children were given the free choice to follow the Qun or not, but it makes it no different than any religion; most children are brought up believing whatever their parents did, or most public educational systems, "AMERICA #1!!! WOOO!" being the impression I was given from history class, effectively trying to get you to think the best of your nation even in the face it's faults. So the qunari are to be given the same right to exist as any other people, especially in the world of Thedas where people fight over faith all day.

I think the life of the poor would not become any worse under the Qun. Think about your mine with Hubert. All those guys were nearly killed 3 times just to make enough money to survive and then for their trouble they all get killed and eaten by a high dragon. Such a tragedy would still occur under the Qun, unless stoicism deters dragons, but the quality of life for the workers would've been better because well fed and rested miners are more productive.