249 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
The Chantry does not:

- Develop biological weapons then claim superior morality.

....Does Thedas have a biological weapon convention when I wasn't looking?

Do you think that the Chantry refuses on principle to develop weapons like this? They don't mind exterminating Qun converts, but they feel bad about biological weapons?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Abispa wrote...

How is the Qun any different than the Magisters of Tevinter? If you submit to the will of the Magisters and happily embrace all of their demands, there would be no problems. It's only when the demands of the Magisters are challenged, or reinterpreted to meet the desires of slaves... er, individuals, that problems arise. Embrace the certainty of the Magisters.

Tell the Qunari they are similar to the people they've been fighting for centuries, and they'd massacre you probably.

There are major differences. Slaves can be manumitted and become citizens. If Danarius is any indication, he didn't experiment on his slaves without their permission. There is some social mobility, though its very limited. And no, I remember devs saying that it's not that meritocratic when it comes to mages. That it's an oligarchic government of a few elite mage families that keep the res of the mages down. But Tevinter is closer to the other nations of Thedas and we have no indication tht they breed their people, assign them roles..etc.

On the otherhand, you won't see mages in Qunari streets dueling each other with no concern over bystanders. You won't see people being owned by anyone (though you could argue they are owned by the state). Theoretically, all are equal and the only hierarchy exists within each "caste". You won't see Qunari having over-indulgant nobles, black markets and slave trade..etc.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Abispa]

Thanks, guys, for reading all those damn codex for me. You are my Cliff Notes.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
The Chantry does not:

- Develop biological weapons then claim superior morality.

....Does Thedas have a biological weapon convention when I wasn't looking?

Do you think that the Chantry refuses on principle to develop weapons like this? They don't mind exterminating Qun converts, but they feel bad about biological weapons?

I never said they couldn't do it, I'm merely pointing out that claiming those not of the Qun are full of vice and immorality while developing a weapon that poisons the mind and spreads insanity is hypocrisy in the extreme.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

On the otherhand, you won't see mages in Qunari streets dueling each other with no concern over bystanders.

Unless it's members of the beresaad losing their swords, in which case run for the hills!

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[Abispa]

All Qunari should be given swords with "Rainbow Bright!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
I never said they couldn't do it, I'm merely pointing out that claiming those not of the Qun are full of vice and immorality while developing a weapon that poisons the mind and spreads insanity is hypocrisy in the extreme.

Eh not really. Difference between what weapons you use and what kind of vices and immoralities are in society. But that would turn into a bigger topic and I am nto sure I want to get into that.

Unless it's members of the beresaad losing their swords, in which case run for the hills!

lol yea true. It is rather peculiar for such an advanced nation technologically to be a bit superstitious. They think hearing a mage talk is enough to make you possessed (even though the soldiers heard him just as well). And they seemingly attribute spiritual importance to weapons. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Camenae wrote...

The Qunari are too materialistic. Take their sword and they can't go back. Take their book and they can't go back. If I ever fall in love with a Qunari but he wants to satisfy a demand of the Qun that is not mine, then I just take something of his, and then he can never leave. Of course that comes with a 90% chance of him going berserk, but hey what's life without a little risk?

Priceless.  They really are very stuff-oriented in some respects.  Weirdly so.

[PsychoBlonde]

OldMan91 wrote...

It sounds more and more like the Qunari rely exclusively on brute force, numbers and their cannons while having the tactical ability of a can of peaches.

Don't joke about cans of peaches. I once played a game of chess with a can of peaches, and it beat me in six moves. To this day I still don't know how it happened.

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite post on the Citadel.

[Talladarr]

Honestly, I think I could fit well into the Qunari culture. You are demanded to use the skills you have, what's wrong with that? If you show you have a higher aptitude for something else, you're re-tasked, and then you're doing what you're better at. If you're a priest but show a higher aptitude for combat, you're re-tasked to be a warrior(Karashok). Likewise, if you're good with physical labor and construction, you're re-tasked there(The word for this hasn't been revealed through gameplay or codex entries). Or if you're one of those and you show a higher aptitude for philosophy or mathmatics or the sciences etc. you're re-tasked as a priest(Tamassran or Ashkaari)

As I'm only good at teaching mathematics and studying the sciences I'd most likely be Tamassran, and I'd be very content within this role(Also if I'm not mistaken the Tamassran and Ashkaari are the only roles that both men and women can occupy), I'd be happy. I don't understand why people can't just be happy doign what they're good at.

[Talladarr]

The Angry One wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
The Chantry does not:

- Develop biological weapons then claim superior morality.

....Does Thedas have a biological weapon convention when I wasn't looking?

Do you think that the Chantry refuses on principle to develop weapons like this? They don't mind exterminating Qun converts, but they feel bad about biological weapons?

I never said they couldn't do it, I'm merely pointing out that claiming those not of the Qun are full of vice and immorality while developing a weapon that poisons the mind and spreads insanity is hypocrisy in the extreme.

Oh Come on, The American Government has done experiments with modifying nerve gas in the past, there's no way you can say this is because they're Qunari. A people will use what's at their sdisposal for whatever it can easilly be used for. Example: The Atomic Bomb was originally designed as a nuclear fission energy sourse, assuming nuclear fusion would be close behiind it to eliminate nuclear waste. Obviously fusion wasn't, but what was the FIRST thing they used this "unlimited" energy source for? A bomb. it's the SAME principal.

Modifié par Talladarr, 04 avril 2011 - 12:10 .

[Talladarr]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Camenae wrote...

The Qunari are too materialistic. Take their sword and they can't go back. Take their book and they can't go back. If I ever fall in love with a Qunari but he wants to satisfy a demand of the Qun that is not mine, then I just take something of his, and then he can never leave. Of course that comes with a 90% chance of him going berserk, but hey what's life without a little risk?

Priceless.  They really are very stuff-oriented in some respects.  Weirdly so.

Oh COME ON. If you took the book Mohamed wrote(can't think of what it's called right now) the Muslims would start a holy war over it. It's a PRICELESS religions relic(book). And as far as their sowrds, it's a matter of honor. Qunari have their swords custum forged for them, and as a Karashok, without a sword you're useless. I mean seriously, what good's a swordsman minus the sword?

[Paraxial]

Until you get stranded somewhere with a busted ship and lack the appropriate Qunari to fix the vessel. The Qunari are hardy, honorable (to some degree), and honest. They lack the ability to adapt to a situation however, not because they physically or mentally unable, but because they refuse to.

I don't know if I like the idea of not being able to do something because my 'roll' is socially unable to.

[The Angry One]

Talladarr wrote...

Honestly, I think I could fit well into the Qunari culture. You are demanded to use the skills you have, what's wrong with that? If you show you have a higher aptitude for something else, you're re-tasked, and then you're doing what you're better at. If you're a priest but show a higher aptitude for combat, you're re-tasked to be a warrior(Karashok). Likewise, if you're good with physical labor and construction, you're re-tasked there(The word for this hasn't been revealed through gameplay or codex entries). Or if you're one of those and you show a higher aptitude for philosophy or mathmatics or the sciences etc. you're re-tasked as a priest(Tamassran or Ashkaari)

As I'm only good at teaching mathematics and studying the sciences I'd most likely be Tamassran, and I'd be very content within this role(Also if I'm not mistaken the Tamassran and Ashkaari are the only roles that both men and women can occupy), I'd be happy. I don't understand why people can't just be happy doign what they're good at.

You do realise what you're doing here is assigning a role to yourself. That is not the way of the Qun.
Your role gets assigned to you, and maybe they decide that your is a farmer. Maybe they don't agree with you, or maybe there are enough Tamassrans right now and they need more farmers.
The point is you won't do what YOU think is right. In fact under the Qun you wouldn't *think* about that at all.

Oh Come on, The American Government has done experiments with modifying nerve gas in the past, there's no way you can say this is because they're Qunari. A people will use what's at their sdisposal for whatever it can easilly be used for. Example: The Atomic Bomb was originally designed as a nuclear fission energy sourse, assuming nuclearfusion would be close behiind it to eliminate nuclear waste. Obviously fusion wasn't, but what was the FIRST thing they used this "unlimited" energy source for? A bomb. it's the SAME principal.

Once again, I'm not criticising them for developing it, I'm criticising them for developing it then claiming their morality is superior.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Talladarr wrote...
Oh COME ON. If you took the book Mohamed wrote(can't think of what it's called right now) the Muslims would start a holy war over it. It's a PRICELESS religions relic(book).

It's called the Qu'ran and no. There is no The One Qu'ran, that most Muslims would start a war over. There are millions of copies. Historically speaking, at least on one occassion, the Caliph Abd al-Rahman III's personal copy was "captured" by Ramiro II in Spain. The Muslims resorted to diplomacy to have it back and they didn't freak out. 

The Qunari reaction to their loss ot the Tome of Koslun can only make sense if it's a unique copy or a very rare copy. Which begs the question of how Tevinters were able to steal it in the first place. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 01:39 .

[OldMan91]

The Muslims resorted to diplomacy to have it back and they didn't freak out.

I'm not going to dwell too much on it, but you should check the news about these key words: Afghanistan, protests, American preacher, burning and Qu'ran.

[KnightofPhoenix]

OldMan91 wrote...

The Muslims resorted to diplomacy to have it back and they didn't freak out.

I'm not going to dwell too much on it, but you should check the news about these key words: Afghanistan, protests, American preacher, burning and Qu'ran.

Yes, because a Muslim state just declare war over that.

I said "most" in my post. Certaintly not comparable to the Arishok who represents his nation's military freaking out over it.

[AshenEndymion]

If the Arigena, Ariqun, and Arishok all want the book back, and the first two task the Arishok to return with the book. It probably would be worth "freaking out" over it. The fact that it took 4 years tells me the Arishok showed considerable restraint with regards to doing what was necessary to reclaim the book.

[Lithuasil]

AshenEndemion wrote...

If the Arigena, Ariqun, and Arishok all want the book back, and the first two task the Arishok to return with the book. It probably would be worth "freaking out" over it. The fact that it took 4 years tells me the Arishok showed considerable restraint with regards to doing what was necessary to reclaim the book.

Because breaching a treaty, and attacking a neutral city, after he knew for a fact the book had left said city, is totally necessary to retreive said book.

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

If the Arigena, Ariqun, and Arishok all want the book back, and the first two task the Arishok to return with the book. It probably would be worth "freaking out" over it. The fact that it took 4 years tells me the Arishok showed considerable restraint with regards to doing what was necessary to reclaim the book.

What restraint? What's the alternative? Ransacking the city? That would accomplish nothing.
In fact, his attack accomplished nothing. If Isabela hadn't decided on her own to return (edit: that is to say IF she returns at all) he'd be camping a foreign city with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

If the Arigena, Ariqun, and Arishok all want the book back, and the first two task the Arishok to return with the book. It probably would be worth "freaking out" over it. The fact that it took 4 years tells me the Arishok showed considerable restraint with regards to doing what was necessary to reclaim the book.

What restraint? What's the alternative? Ransacking the city? That would accomplish nothing.
In fact, his attack accomplished nothing. If Isabela hadn't decided on her own to return (edit: that is to say IF she returns at all) he'd be camping a foreign city with absolutely nothing to show for it.

The immediate demand of the Qun to the Arishok is to return with the book.  Without the book, he cannot return.  Isabella taking the book means it is no longer in the area, and the Arishok does not know where Isabella is taking the book (or whether it will still be there when he arrives if he does).  For all intents and purposes, the book is lost at the point that Isabella takes it.

Following the Qun, the Arishok has two options.  Commit suicide and order all his soldiers to do the same.  Or wait until he has word on the new whereabouts of the book, and retrieve it.  He is in Kirkwall already, and won't find any better reception from any other area the group moves to.  And the Qunari are being threatened by the citizens of Kirkwall.  Better to remove the threat to the Qunari in Kirkwall, by taking control of the city, and remain there until the new whereabout of the book is determined.

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Following the Qun, the Arishok has two options.  Commit suicide and order all his soldiers to do the same.  Or wait until he has word on the new whereabouts of the book, and retrieve it.  He is in Kirkwall already, and won't find any better reception from any other area the group moves to.  And the Qunari are being threatened by the citizens of Kirkwall.  Better to remove the threat to the Qunari in Kirkwall, by taking control of the city, and remain there until the new whereabout of the book is determined.

And essentially declare war without informing the rest of the triumverate, break treaties, cause a diplomatic incident and risk death?

I've got a better plan: March out of the damn city.

[sphinxess]

AshenEndemion wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

If the Arigena, Ariqun, and Arishok all want the book back, and the first two task the Arishok to return with the book. It probably would be worth "freaking out" over it. The fact that it took 4 years tells me the Arishok showed considerable restraint with regards to doing what was necessary to reclaim the book.

What restraint? What's the alternative? Ransacking the city? That would accomplish nothing.
In fact, his attack accomplished nothing. If Isabela hadn't decided on her own to return (edit: that is to say IF she returns at all) he'd be camping a foreign city with absolutely nothing to show for it.

The immediate demand of the Qun to the Arishok is to return with the book.  Without the book, he cannot return.  Isabella taking the book means it is no longer in the area, and the Arishok does not know where Isabella is taking the book (or whether it will still be there when he arrives if he does).  For all intents and purposes, the book is lost at the point that Isabella takes it.

Following the Qun, the Arishok has two options.  Commit suicide and order all his soldiers to do the same.  Or wait until he has word on the new whereabouts of the book, and retrieve it.  He is in Kirkwall already, and won't find any better reception from any other area the group moves to.  And the Qunari are being threatened by the citizens of Kirkwall.  Better to remove the threat to the Qunari in Kirkwall, by taking control of the city, and remain there until the new whereabout of the book is determined.

What I don't get is insisting the thief must go with him. He had what he came for mission over - in fact he risks the book by his challenge. Really wish Hawke could have picked up the book after the fight - it should have happened.

[The Angry One]

sphinxess wrote...

What I don't get is insisting the thief must go with him. He had what he came for mission over - in fact he risks the book by his challenge. Really wish Hawke could have picked up the book after the fight - it should have happened.

Because the Qun demands it!
And just to illustrate what a bad idea this is and how incompetent the Arishok is, should you give Isabela to him, Varric says that Isabela escapes... with the book.

:D:D

[AshenEndymion]

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Following the Qun, the Arishok has two options.  Commit suicide and order all his soldiers to do the same.  Or wait until he has word on the new whereabouts of the book, and retrieve it.  He is in Kirkwall already, and won't find any better reception from any other area the group moves to.  And the Qunari are being threatened by the citizens of Kirkwall.  Better to remove the threat to the Qunari in Kirkwall, by taking control of the city, and remain there until the new whereabout of the book is determined.

And essentially declare war without informing the rest of the triumverate, break treaties, cause a diplomatic incident and risk death?

I've got a better plan: March out of the damn city.

Taking the city is not war on the rest of Thedas unless they were to
expand (or representatives of the rest of Thedas came in asking them to
leave, and the Arishok refused).  It would only be war upon Kirkwall.

Bisides, if they left, where would they go?  Sitting in the outskirts of Kirkwall will not be looked at as "better" by the denezins of Kirkwall.  The only reason the Dalish are still allowed at Sundermount in Act 2 is because of the Qunari threat (and the mage/templar situation in Act 3).  The Arishok, and the Qunari under him in Kirkwall, cannot expect to go anywhere else and expect a welcome better than they recieved in Kirkwall.  Unless they were to return to Par Vollen.  But they cannot do that until they have the book.

The best solution for the Qunari is to stay in Kirkwall until they can get word of where the book is.  And since they are being threatened by Kirkwall (there are guards in the camp, demanding followers of the Qun to return with them and be imprisoned), it would be best to eliminate the threat while they wait for word of the book's location to reach them.

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Taking the city is not war on the rest of Thedas unless they were to
expand (or representatives of the rest of Thedas came in asking them to
leave, and the Arishok refused).  It would only be war upon Kirkwall.

Declaring war on Kirkwall is breaking the treaty.
Any nation in Thedas would have a legitimate reason to declare war on the Qun if this situation lasted.