323 réponses à ce sujet

[LilyasAvalon]

Hawke is just an ordinary person, the catalyst of a chain of events that linked together the climax of the mages and templars finally going to war with one another. However, anyone could have filled this role and not play as important a role.

Someone else could have funded the Deep Roads expedition and Bartrend would've gotten the idol anyway. The Mages and Templars would still be at each others throats. Meredith would still go insane, so would Orsino and most like, Elthina would've still been killed anyway. This catalyst also does not have to be the same person.

In truth, Hawke didn't rise or strive to become the Champion. The Warden was striving to gather an army to face off the Darkspawn, Hawke is merely just trying to survive. It's not like he/she woke up and decided 'Hey, I'ma gonna be the Champion one day!'.

The whole sense of Hawke is that he/she was merely in the right places at the right times and was linked to each of them.

[Talogrungi]

There's nothing "special" about Hawke, but that doesn't make him any less pivotal.

Hell, pick any pivotal moment in the histories of earth .. was the
guy/gal at the centre of them "special" .. ? .. nope, just another
random human being who happened to be there at time.

It's fruitless to argue whether the events would have happened if Hawke had not been present; Hawke WAS present when the events took place and that's an end to it. He can either be the most pivotal person in the history of the world, or just some random guy in the wrong/right place and time .. depends on your interpretation and, I suppose, how you decided to play your Hawke; as a crusader (for either cause) or just some poor slob thinking "how the buggery did I get into this position?" and eyeing up the nearest exit.

[ThomasBlaine]

Jkol1 wrote...

But even then, he doesn't really have to be important. My point was that he gets extra credit for being sane. If Orsino the elven abomination says that circle mages are being abused people will assume that the Templars were probably right. If Hawke the everyman/everywoman who incidently saved Kirkwall from the Qunari says they are being abused he is harder to dismiss off hand.

Right, but what does that matter in context? He's a well-regarded local hero of Kirkwall, a coastline trade city in the southern Free Marches, why would anyone in Antiva, Orlais, the Anderfels, mage or templar, give two ****s about him? Much less cut short a rebellion or civil war that has been hundreds of years overdue, simply because he demands it.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 08 avril 2011 - 02:40 .

[ThomasBlaine]

Talogrungi wrote...

There's nothing "special" about Hawke, but that doesn't make him any less pivotal.

Hell, pick any pivotal moment in the histories of earth .. was the
guy/gal at the centre of them "special" .. ? .. nope, just another
random human being who happened to be there at time.

Again, have anyone short of Jesus Christ ever been credited "the single most important person on earth"?
I don't care how "special" people do or do not want Hawke to be, I just want to know what the hell he did off-screen that earned him a statement like that.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 08 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[Talogrungi]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

There's nothing "special" about Hawke, but that doesn't make him any less pivotal.

Hell, pick any pivotal moment in the histories of earth .. was the guy/gal at the centre of them "special" .. ? .. nope, just another random human being who happened to be there at time.

Again, have anyone short of Jesus Christ(and even that's quite a stretch, imo) ever been credited "the single most important person on earth"?

Sure. Isaac Newton, Ts'ai Lun, Johann Gutenberg, Christopher Columbus, Albert Einstein. Without any single one of these people, civilisation as we know it would not exist.

It only takes one event to change a world, and it only requires one person to be the catalyst of that change.

In Thedras, Hawke is that person.

[Andronic0s]

Talogrungi wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

There's nothing "special" about Hawke, but that doesn't make him any less pivotal.

Hell, pick any pivotal moment in the histories of earth .. was the guy/gal at the centre of them "special" .. ? .. nope, just another random human being who happened to be there at time.

Again, have anyone short of Jesus Christ(and even that's quite a stretch, imo) ever been credited "the single most important person on earth"?

Sure. Isaac Newton, Ts'ai Lun, Johann Gutenberg, Christopher Columbus, Albert Einstein. Without any single one of these people, civilisation as we know it would not exist.

It only takes one event to change a world, and it only requires one person to be the catalyst of that change.

In Thedras, Hawke is that person.

Exept that those persons changed the course of history through their own actions, while Hawke simply reacted, he is always pushed into action, which makes it feel more like being dragged along by circumstances.
To be more clear it feels like the world changed itself rather than me being the catalyst, it was Bartrand's expedition that found the idol, it was the Arishok that killed the Viscount and created a power vacuum, it was Anders that did his thing and caused Meredith to snap, I feel like a glorified expectator nothing more.

[Talogrungi]

Andronic0s wrote...

Exept that those persons changed the course of history through their own actions, while Hawke simply reacted, he is always pushed into action, which makes it feel more like being dragged along by circumstances.
To be more clear it feels like the world changed itself rather than me being the catalyst, it was Bartrand's expedition that found the idol, it was the Arishok that killed the Viscount and created a power vacuum, it was Anders that did his thing and caused Meredith to snap, I feel like a glorified expectator nothing more.

When the world changes, we typically only see the outcome of that change.

The reasons for action; the motivations of the people at the heart of that change .. these are things that we generally do not get to know. I don't disagree that Hawke is universally presented as a reluctant "hero" .. he doesn't go to Kirkwall to become a crusader for mage rights or a defender of the templar order and personally I think that makes him a better protagonist for the story.

We're often inundated with stories where the hero drives the plot; it's refreshing and frankly much more believable to have a hero that is always on the back foot; always forced to react to events outside his control .. to make the best of a bad situation.

[Foefaller]

Talogrungi wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

There's nothing "special" about Hawke, but that doesn't make him any less pivotal.

Hell, pick any pivotal moment in the histories of earth .. was the guy/gal at the centre of them "special" .. ? .. nope, just another random human being who happened to be there at time.

Again, have anyone short of Jesus Christ(and even that's quite a stretch, imo) ever been credited "the single most important person on earth"?

Sure. Isaac Newton, Ts'ai Lun, Johann Gutenberg, Christopher Columbus, Albert Einstein. Without any single one of these people, civilisation as we know it would not exist.

It only takes one event to change a world, and it only requires one person to be the catalyst of that change.

In Thedras, Hawke is that person.

...Or for someone who might be a better RL example, Gavrilo Princip: the man who killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the event that started World War One...

Why does Cassandra think finding Hawke would stop a civil war? Maybe it's just me, but based on her comments, I don't think she was looking for a leader... she was looking for a scapegoat, someone the Chantry could blame and punish for the events in Act 3, because if the events in Kirkwall were caused by the deliberate actions of Hawke, who is either an apostate, or the brother/sister of one, then it wasn't because the Circle system in Kirkwall imploded on itself, and perhaps the mages and templars will calm down...

Unfortunatly, Varric's story kinda throws that idea out the window.

[Andronic0s]

Talogrungi wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Exept that those persons changed the course of history through their own actions, while Hawke simply reacted, he is always pushed into action, which makes it feel more like being dragged along by circumstances.
To be more clear it feels like the world changed itself rather than me being the catalyst, it was Bartrand's expedition that found the idol, it was the Arishok that killed the Viscount and created a power vacuum, it was Anders that did his thing and caused Meredith to snap, I feel like a glorified expectator nothing more.

When the world changes, we typically only see the outcome of that change.

The reasons for action; the motivations of the people at the heart of that change .. these are things that we generally do not get to know. I don't disagree that Hawke is universally presented as a reluctant "hero" .. he doesn't go to Kirkwall to become a crusader for mage rights or a defender of the templar order and personally I think that makes him a better protagonist for the story.

We're often inundated with stories where the hero drives the plot; it's refreshing and frankly much more believable to have a hero that is always on the back foot; always forced to react to events outside his control .. to make the best of a bad situation.

I can understand that, but I do not think this makes Hawke a prime mover in the events of the world, so he should not be presented/treated as such.

To bring an example for an alternative, Imagine the expedition to the deeps roads would have been Hawke's Idea, and we start Act 1 with Hawke convincing bertrand to help him fund the expedition and he then goes to gather the funds. The story remains the same but one feels like Hawke is involved in it more personaly rather than just being a background figure.

[ThomasBlaine]

Talogrungi wrote...

Sure. Isaac Newton, Ts'ai Lun, Johann Gutenberg, Christopher Columbus, Albert Einstein. Without any single one of these people, civilisation as we know it would not exist.

It only takes one event to change a world, and it only requires one person to be the catalyst of that change.

In Thedras, Hawke is that person.

Goddamit, WHY would Hawke be that person?? What does he contribute to Thedas as a whole? What ****ing difference does he make on any larger scale?

Cute, you can line up 5 historically essential names that you know of. Even if we agreed to seriously label any one of them the most important man on earth, could Hawke compete with any of them?

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 08 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[Jkol1]

To use Douglas Adams parlance, the whole Templar-Mage deal suffered from being 'Somebody Else's Problem.' Even other Mage circles don't want involvement. The events in Kirkwall pushed the whole issue and there are only two leaders who come out of there with any credibility. Cullen is less valuable because he is inexorably tied to the Templar cause. Only Hawke has the slimest of chances of claiming neutrality.

As an Everyman/Everywoman, Hawke is the exemplar that can be related to, a prime illustration of how a once isolated conflict can ruin the lives of normal people.

His influence transcends his actual role and power because a symbol is needed. Jesus aside, most the people our society holds as influential have been inflated in value as well. It makes for good news, storytelling and gossip.

I don't think Hawke can stop this schism him/herself but his symbolic nature makes this schism impossible to stop without Hawke's involvement.

The Templars need Pro-Mage Hawke because it is hard to put down a rebellion short of full blown extermination when the inciting rebel symbol is still running free.

The Mages could never be satisfied laying down their arms/spells when Pro-Temlpar Hawke, 'Butcher of Kirkwall' remains alive to terrorize them.

And skilled as Hawke is, He/She would make a great, symbolic, general to lead one side to Victory.
Another reason for the other side to want his/her head.

Flemeth talks about change and destiny. I see Hawke being influential there, but peace? Over Hawke's dead, symbolic body

[Foefaller]

Andronic0s wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Exept that those persons changed the course of history through their own actions, while Hawke simply reacted, he is always pushed into action, which makes it feel more like being dragged along by circumstances.
To be more clear it feels like the world changed itself rather than me being the catalyst, it was Bartrand's expedition that found the idol, it was the Arishok that killed the Viscount and created a power vacuum, it was Anders that did his thing and caused Meredith to snap, I feel like a glorified expectator nothing more.

When the world changes, we typically only see the outcome of that change.

The reasons for action; the motivations of the people at the heart of that change .. these are things that we generally do not get to know. I don't disagree that Hawke is universally presented as a reluctant "hero" .. he doesn't go to Kirkwall to become a crusader for mage rights or a defender of the templar order and personally I think that makes him a better protagonist for the story.

We're often inundated with stories where the hero drives the plot; it's refreshing and frankly much more believable to have a hero that is always on the back foot; always forced to react to events outside his control .. to make the best of a bad situation.

I can understand that, but I do not think this makes Hawke a prime mover in the events of the world, so he should not be presented/treated as such.

To bring an example for an alternative, Imagine the expedition to the deeps roads would have been Hawke's Idea, and we start Act 1 with Hawke convincing bertrand to help him fund the expedition and he then goes to gather the funds. The story remains the same but one feels like Hawke is involved in it more personaly rather than just being a background figure.

You know, if you pay attention to Cassandra's comments throughout the game, she was convinced before the story was told that every major event Hawke participated in was his/her idea.

Her comments at the start of the Deep Roads expedition shows she though Hawke knew about the Lyrium Idol beforehand, her comments then and after shows she though you and all your companions were working together from the beginning... which probably means she though Isabela stole the book from the Qunari so you can show up as as the hero and save Kirkwall when the Arishok was finally pushed over the edge, thereby giving you the status that lets you (and Anders) to move freely enough to start the events that lead to the Chantry blowing up and everything going to heck.

Is that what really happened? No, but based on what Cassandra says, that probably what most of Thedas thinks did happen... Which makes me wonder if when Bioware said that Hawke is/would become "The most important person in the history of Thedas." that they weren't talking about what really happened, but what the historians of Thedas would say once the Dragon Age is done...

Modifié par Foefaller, 08 avril 2011 - 03:42 .

[Andronic0s]

Foefaller wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Exept that those persons changed the course of history through their own actions, while Hawke simply reacted, he is always pushed into action, which makes it feel more like being dragged along by circumstances.
To be more clear it feels like the world changed itself rather than me being the catalyst, it was Bartrand's expedition that found the idol, it was the Arishok that killed the Viscount and created a power vacuum, it was Anders that did his thing and caused Meredith to snap, I feel like a glorified expectator nothing more.

When the world changes, we typically only see the outcome of that change.

The reasons for action; the motivations of the people at the heart of that change .. these are things that we generally do not get to know. I don't disagree that Hawke is universally presented as a reluctant "hero" .. he doesn't go to Kirkwall to become a crusader for mage rights or a defender of the templar order and personally I think that makes him a better protagonist for the story.

We're often inundated with stories where the hero drives the plot; it's refreshing and frankly much more believable to have a hero that is always on the back foot; always forced to react to events outside his control .. to make the best of a bad situation.

I can understand that, but I do not think this makes Hawke a prime mover in the events of the world, so he should not be presented/treated as such.

To bring an example for an alternative, Imagine the expedition to the deeps roads would have been Hawke's Idea, and we start Act 1 with Hawke convincing bertrand to help him fund the expedition and he then goes to gather the funds. The story remains the same but one feels like Hawke is involved in it more personaly rather than just being a background figure.

You know, if you pay attention to Cassandra's comments throughout the game, she was convinced before the story was told that every major event Hawke participated in was his/her idea.

Her comments at the start of the Deep Roads expedition shows she though Hawke knew about the Lyrium Idol beforehand, her comments then and after shows she though you and all your companions were working together from the beginning... which probably means she though Isabela stole the book from the Qunari so you can show up as as the hero and save Kirkwall when the Arishok was finally pushed over the edge, thereby giving you the status that lets you (and Anders) to move freely enough to start the events that lead to the Chantry blowing up and everything going to heck.

Is that what really happened? No, but based on what Cassandra says, that probably what most of Thedas thinks did happen... Which makes me wonder if when Bioware said that Hawke is/would become "The most important person in the history of Thedas." that they weren't talking about what really happened, but what the historians of Thedas would say once the Dragon Age is done...

Ok so thedas thinks Hawke is responsible for everything, we are discussing the "real" events, will thedas think he was the most important person in history? maybe but it does not changes the fact that he was not, and that is why some of us are dissapointed.
Claiming that Bioware comments stem from this "fantasy world hearsay" is pushing it, since they where describing a real product in the real world to convince real people to buy it, if true then they blatantly lied, because what they advertised is not what I got in the game

[Foefaller]

Andronic0s wrote...

Foefaller wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Andronic0s wrote...

Exept that those persons changed the course of history through their own actions, while Hawke simply reacted, he is always pushed into action, which makes it feel more like being dragged along by circumstances.
To be more clear it feels like the world changed itself rather than me being the catalyst, it was Bartrand's expedition that found the idol, it was the Arishok that killed the Viscount and created a power vacuum, it was Anders that did his thing and caused Meredith to snap, I feel like a glorified expectator nothing more.

When the world changes, we typically only see the outcome of that change.

The reasons for action; the motivations of the people at the heart of that change .. these are things that we generally do not get to know. I don't disagree that Hawke is universally presented as a reluctant "hero" .. he doesn't go to Kirkwall to become a crusader for mage rights or a defender of the templar order and personally I think that makes him a better protagonist for the story.

We're often inundated with stories where the hero drives the plot; it's refreshing and frankly much more believable to have a hero that is always on the back foot; always forced to react to events outside his control .. to make the best of a bad situation.

I can understand that, but I do not think this makes Hawke a prime mover in the events of the world, so he should not be presented/treated as such.

To bring an example for an alternative, Imagine the expedition to the deeps roads would have been Hawke's Idea, and we start Act 1 with Hawke convincing bertrand to help him fund the expedition and he then goes to gather the funds. The story remains the same but one feels like Hawke is involved in it more personaly rather than just being a background figure.

You know, if you pay attention to Cassandra's comments throughout the game, she was convinced before the story was told that every major event Hawke participated in was his/her idea.

Her comments at the start of the Deep Roads expedition shows she though Hawke knew about the Lyrium Idol beforehand, her comments then and after shows she though you and all your companions were working together from the beginning... which probably means she though Isabela stole the book from the Qunari so you can show up as as the hero and save Kirkwall when the Arishok was finally pushed over the edge, thereby giving you the status that lets you (and Anders) to move freely enough to start the events that lead to the Chantry blowing up and everything going to heck.

Is that what really happened? No, but based on what Cassandra says, that probably what most of Thedas thinks did happen... Which makes me wonder if when Bioware said that Hawke is/would become "The most important person in the history of Thedas." that they weren't talking about what really happened, but what the historians of Thedas would say once the Dragon Age is done...

Ok so thedas thinks Hawke is responsible for everything, we are discussing the "real" events, will thedas think he was the most important person in history? maybe but it does not changes the fact that he was not, and that is why some of us are dissapointed.
Claiming that Bioware comments stem from this "fantasy world hearsay" is pushing it, since they where describing a real product in the real world to convince real people to buy it, if true then they blatantly lied, because what they advertised is not what I got in the game

Did they? Or do you belive that everything in History is 100% true and accurate? The exact wording I remember was "The most important person in The History of Thedas." Might be a cruel misdirection or bait-and-switch, but I don't see it as an out-and-out lie.

Also worth noting that there could still be DLC/xpacs comming to further the story, and although somebody mentioned the EA/Bioware has never stated that Hawke would appear in any future game beyond a cameo... Also never remember them saying that Hawke wouldn't.

[Talogrungi]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Goddamit, WHY would Hawke be that person?? What does he contribute to Thedas as a whole? What ****ing difference does he make on any larger scale?

Cute, you can line up 5 historically essential names that you know of. Even if we agreed to seriously label any one of them the most important man on earth, could Hawke compete with any of them?

One doesn't have to contribute to be pivotal to the changing of the world, one merely needs to be there.

No matter what your allegiances/choices in the game, Hawke is present at (and indirectly responsible for) the magical destruction of the Chantry that leads to civil war between the Templars and the Mages. He/She is then present at (and directly responsible for) the events that follow with Meredith and Orsino.

Like it or not, Hawke is the catalyst.

[ThomasBlaine]

Talogrungi wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Goddamit, WHY would Hawke be that person?? What does he contribute to Thedas as a whole? What ****ing difference does he make on any larger scale?

Cute, you can line up 5 historically essential names that you know of. Even if we agreed to seriously label any one of them the most important man on earth, could Hawke compete with any of them?

One doesn't have to contribute to be pivotal to the changing of the world, one merely needs to be there.

No matter what your allegiances/choices in the game, Hawke is present at (and indirectly responsible for) the magical destruction of the Chantry that leads to civil war between the Templars and the Mages. He/She is then present at (and directly responsible for) the events that follow with Meredith and Orsino.

Like it or not, Hawke is the catalyst.

That's bull****. If you don't influence an event you might as well not have been there, and if it doesn't matter whether you were there or not then you certainly can't call yourself important, "pivotal", or essential to it.

Specifics, dammit. How is Hawke "indirectly responsible" for the destruction of the Chantry? Or "directly" responsible for the mess afterwards?

Laidlaw's exact words were "And we are thrust into the shoes of Hawke, a penniless refugee, who with time rises in power to become the Champion of Kirkwall, and the most important person in the world of Dragon Age."

And stop this "like it or not" crap, this is not a sentimental issue.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 09 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[Talogrungi]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

That's bull****. If you don't influence an event you might as well not have been there, and if it doesn't matter whether you were there or not then you certainly can't call yourself important.

Specifics, dammit. How is Hawke "indirectly responsible" for the destruction of the Chantry?

Laidlaw's exact words were "And you are thrust into the shoes of Hawke, a penniless refugee, who with time rises in power to become the most important person in the world of Dragon Age."

You don't have to influence the event; you just have to be seen to influence the event. But that's by the by, as Hawke clearly did influence the events surrounding the start of the Mage/Templar civil war. He killed both Orsino and Meredith!

Specific to the destruction of the Chantry, Hawke was an accomplice to Anders. I recall a quest whereby we gathered reagents for him, and another where I helped him sneak into the Chantry .. he didn't know it at the time, but effectively Hawke supplied the bomb and caused a distraction allowing Anders to plant it.

[Jkol1]

Thinking back about it, I take issue with casting Hawke as a reluctant Hero. The Hawke estate has basement access to Darktown (Birthright quest) and from Act 2 forward he knows about the Smuggler's cut to the wounded coast (Blackpowder Courtesy).

After his mother dies, he has no family obligations to stay, and if he/she can convince Merrill and Bethany to murder innocent mages talking the friends that matter into leaving should be a breeze.
Oh, and the vault is on the way out (Birthright) so Hakwe can preserve asuch wealth as can be carried. And that doesn't even account for 4-7 years of contingency planning by 'Hawkes merry band of apostates' who would be very foolish to live in Templar oppression central without a couple bolt-holes.

Nobody forces Hawke to stop the Arishok at the keep, and nobody forces Hawke to make that last visit to the gallows and put his/her own life on the line for a cause or for Kirkwall.

It would have been easier both times to stay home, skip town and let Meredith fight it out with the opposition. Hawke chooses to fight. This is why he/she becomes the champion.

And it is why Hawke makes an excellent symbol. Hawke goes to the gallows because of sheer personal, moral conviction. The mages need to be killed or the mages deserve to live free and Hawke is willing to put His/her life on the line for what is right.

Cullen cannot claim the same as he only mans up to save Hawke after Hawke resolves the Mage issue either way. Even the Grey Warden cannot claim the same because their interest is in troops for the blight. The GW must be driven by pragmatism first and moral correctness second.

[ThomasBlaine]

Talogrungi wrote...

You don't have to influence the event; you just have to be seen to influence the event. But that's by the by, as Hawke clearly did influence the events surrounding the start of the Mage/Templar civil war. He killed both Orsino and Meredith!

Specific to the destruction of the Chantry, Hawke was an accomplice to Anders. I recall a quest whereby we gathered reagents for him, and another where I helped him sneak into the Chantry .. he didn't know it at the time, but effectively Hawke supplied the bomb and caused a distraction allowing Anders to plant it.

Funny, I never did that quest and exactly the same thing happens. I never took Anders anywhere, but let him stay and tend to his patients from he gave me the map of the deep roads till he showed up at the end. No importance to be found.

Orsino would have been cut down anyway. I was never actually clear on exactly why I had to fight him at all... And seriously, what difference does it make in the larger perspective whether Meredith lives or dies? She's a zealot like almost every other templar, and barely mentioned in the epilogue.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 08 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[ThomasBlaine]

Jkol1 wrote...

Thinking back about it, I take issue with casting Hawke as a reluctant Hero. The Hawke estate has basement access to Darktown (Birthright quest) and from Act 2 forward he knows about the Smuggler's cut to the wounded coast (Blackpowder Courtesy).

After his mother dies, he has no family obligations to stay, and if he/she can convince Merrill and Bethany to murder innocent mages talking the friends that matter into leaving should be a breeze.
Oh, and the vault is on the way out (Birthright) so Hakwe can preserve asuch wealth as can be carried. And that doesn't even account for 4-7 years of contingency planning by 'Hawkes merry band of apostates' who would be very foolish to live in Templar oppression central without a couple bolt-holes.

Nobody forces Hawke to stop the Arishok at the keep, and nobody forces Hawke to make that last visit to the gallows and put his/her own life on the line for a cause or for Kirkwall.

It would have been easier both times to stay home, skip town and let Meredith fight it out with the opposition. Hawke chooses to fight. This is why he/she becomes the champion.

And it is why Hawke makes an excellent symbol. Hawke goes to the gallows because of sheer personal, moral conviction. The mages need to be killed or the mages deserve to live free and Hawke is willing to put His/her life on the line for what is right.

Cullen cannot claim the same as he only mans up to save Hawke after Hawke resolves the Mage issue either way. Even the Grey Warden cannot claim the same because their interest is in troops for the blight. The GW must be driven by pragmatism first and moral correctness second.

That's all great, and probably true for some takes on Hawke as a character, but it doesn't really matter much to Thedas in general.

[ThomasBlaine]

I'm actually starting to warm up to the idea of a stark-confused, bewildered Hawke, freaked out by how things just blow up and he's swept up by events and plots he has nothing to do with

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 08 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[LobselVith8]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

I'm actually starting to warm up to the idea of a stark-confused, bewildered Hawke, freaked out by how things just blow up and he's swept up by events and plots he has nothing to do with

I felt that way when Hawke meets Merrill - here is an expert on Dalish lore who mastered blood magic, cleansed a shard of a two thousand year old piece of technology, extrapolated the information from that piece of glass and all the lore she gathered to recreate the Eluvian, and Hawke can tell her she's doing it all wrong based on... having absolutely no knowledge of what she's exactly doing and being completely bewildered by what her goals are. He's swept up in a character's ambition to save her people, while his immediate goal is to get rich so he can purchase a mansion and become a noble.

[ThomasBlaine]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I felt that way when Hawke meets Merrill - here is an expert on Dalish lore who mastered blood magic, cleansed a shard of a two thousand year old piece of technology, extrapolated the information from that piece of glass and all the lore she gathered to recreate the Eluvian, and Hawke can tell her she's doing it all wrong based on... having absolutely no knowledge of what she's exactly doing and being completely bewildered by what her goals are. He's swept up in a character's ambition to save her people, while his immediate goal is to get rich so he can purchase a mansion and become a noble.

From this view he's not even a catalyst, just a pretty competent passanger without longstanding ambitions who continually gets blamed/appreciated for weird, random stuff that he may or may not actually be conciously involved with.
Interestingly, I like this take much better than the whole 'overhyped but ultimately pointless overly baddass folk hero' angle.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 09 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[Andronic0s]

Foefaller wrote...

Did they? Or do you belive that everything in History is 100% true and accurate? The exact wording I remember was "The most important person in The History of Thedas." Might be a cruel misdirection or bait-and-switch, but I don't see it as an out-and-out lie.

Also worth noting that there could still be DLC/xpacs comming to further the story, and although somebody mentioned the EA/Bioware has never stated that Hawke would appear in any future game beyond a cameo... Also never remember them saying that Hawke wouldn't.

You imply that the events of the game are BS told by Varric then? I can agree to that, it would help swallow the nonsensical waves of exploding ninjas and blind templars, otherwise we see the events through Hawke's eyes so we are privy to the truth of what happened, making the story 100% true and accurate as far as Hawke is concerned.

Also Hawke has influence in the world around him, he does important stuff, we are just arguing he is not the catalyst we where told he was.