323 réponses à ce sujet

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

My thought about Hawke:

Hawke is an imaginary character derived from Varric story. No one knows whether he is alive or dead. Technically Hawke doesn't exist. In that sense, Hawke can't be role played by anyone. Hawke can't be anyone character but BioWare. Hawke is prime example of illusion of choices where he, the victim of incoherence voice tone suffer dysfunction personification of voiced protagonist. Not only that, Hawke suffer brain damage as he can blurt out dialogue lines without player input. Because of that, Hawke can't be loved and cared as those that stands in the hall of paragons of player characters like my beloved grey warden, Amber Cousland who sacrifice herself in the fifth blight. Hawke is now recognized as semi NPC with certain privilege of customization. As the result, Hawke character and story can not be personal. In addition, Hawke illusion of choices do not accomplish anything in the mage crisis that ultimately become apparent when Anders is responsible to change the world forever. However, BioWare insist that Hawke is the single most important person in Thedas because when he press button something awesome happens.

file:///C:/Users/JENNIFER/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-11.png[img]file:///C:/Users/JENNIFER/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-12.png

I lol'd:lol:

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 03 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[ThomasBlaine]

sorentoft wrote...

Why does it have to be about something über epic wtfomgbadass? Personally I am fine with having games about even lesser things so long they are interesting and DA2 certainly is in my opinion.

Oh nobody's implying it decreases game value, just that Hawke's hype doesn't make sense.

[sorentoft]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Why does it have to be about something über epic wtfomgbadass? Personally I am fine with having games about even lesser things so long they are interesting and DA2 certainly is in my opinion.

Oh nobody's implying it decreases game value, just that Hawke's hype doesn't make sense.

When does advertisement ever make any sense other than trying make you do a purchase?  In game it does make sense though, simply because he is a warrior/mage/rogue at the level of the mysterious warden from Origins in terms of skill, either of them are valuable assets to have on your side if the world is going to hell.

[Aether99]

the level of baseless hate in here is astounding.  hawke was a interesting character.  and had a much finer grasp on humor thats for sure. 

I think both the warden and hawke will have importance in future of dragon age.  apparently nobody knows where the warden or where hawke went, and leliana working with the chantry are trying to find them.


anyone else find the mage/templar thing more interesting then darkspawn?

[DoNotIngest]

I agree that saying he's a world-shaker is an overstatement worthy of a hammered Varric. Still, he's not made out to be anything more than a very talented man in the game, so it doesn't bother me.


Aether - Not sure, really. Although at least this time, on side isn't mindless; That's always a pro.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 03 avril 2011 - 02:52 .

[Anexity]

Hawke was less important in that he/she didn't defeat a huge evil. But DA2 wasn't about fighting a huge evil like DAO. It was about Hawke's rise from nothing to riches (and possibly beyond). The change in direction doesn't make Hawke less interesting. In fact Hawke can be MORE intersting because he/she shows more emotion than the Warden could.

Modifié par Anexity, 03 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[ThomasBlaine]

sorentoft wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Why does it have to be about something über epic wtfomgbadass? Personally I am fine with having games about even lesser things so long they are interesting and DA2 certainly is in my opinion.

Oh nobody's implying it decreases game value, just that Hawke's hype doesn't make sense.

When does advertisement ever make any sense other than trying make you do a purchase?  In game it does make sense though, simply because he is a warrior/mage/rogue at the level of the mysterious warden from Origins in terms of skill, either of them are valuable assets to have on your side if the world is going to hell.

...The advertisement usually does make sense actually.  The alternative is either lying outright or flinging meaningless expressions, neither of which are effective marketing strategies, ' specially when the company relies so heavily on a specific fandom.
Anyway, Hawke is never compared to the Warden in terms of skill in-game so I fail to see the relevance...

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 03 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[ThomasBlaine]

Aether99 wrote...

the level of baseless hate in here is astounding.  hawke was a interesting character.  and had a much finer grasp on humor thats for sure. 

I think both the warden and hawke will have importance in future of dragon age.  apparently nobody knows where the warden or where hawke went, and leliana working with the chantry are trying to find them.


anyone else find the mage/templar thing more interesting then darkspawn?

Christ, this is a calm and sensible discussion, where do you see otherwise?

[Aether99]

I think the next DA should have you controlling morrigans child. then you can have a excuse to be OP. your a freaking old god reborn. dont even need party membersw, probably be more rediculous then a diablo game.

[ThomasBlaine]

Aether99 wrote...

I think the next DA should have you controlling morrigans child. then you can have a excuse to be OP. your a freaking old god reborn. dont even need party membersw, probably be more rediculous then a diablo game.

Well, S/he would be about eight by the time DA2 finishes, so I guess that depends on the length of the war. Anyway that's off-topic.

[Aether99]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Aether99 wrote...

the level of baseless hate in here is astounding.  hawke was a interesting character.  and had a much finer grasp on humor thats for sure. 

I think both the warden and hawke will have importance in future of dragon age.  apparently nobody knows where the warden or where hawke went, and leliana working with the chantry are trying to find them.


anyone else find the mage/templar thing more interesting then darkspawn?

Christ, this is a calm and sensible discussion, where do you see otherwise?

did you gloss over the first page in this thread?  and it was one line, the rest of my post proceeded to offer something to this discussion.

just for tastes, one of the replies on the first page was nothing but how they wnted to see hawke not at all, or dead in a ditch.  just one example of course.

[Adanu]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Dannybare wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...


What makes Hawke important enough to develop even one, let alone two games about?

After setting off the war, however it happens, Hawke really doesn't have any logical relevance to Thedas as a whole. The most important thing he does in the game is to keep Anders around in time to nuke the Chantry, at which point he's just another skilled fighter/apostate with a bit of money to his name and a reputation, either hated or respected by the Templars of Kirkwall.

Whereas the Warden is, you guessed it, a Grey Warden, and thus at least moderately essential to the safety of the people besides being the hero of Ferelden, Hawke is a shortly formulated borderline retard with nothing but a few bets placed in the coming war.

Desipte this, Bioware/EA advertises HAWKE as the ultimate hero and has decided that he's the one they want to build future games on, no justification whatsoever, seemingly because they expected the players to share their enthusiasm with him.

My biggest problem is exactly that, Hawke is treated as the Messiah of Thedas by Laidlaw, Bioware, and almost every major character in the game, while the only event in DA2 with any real importance to the overall state of the world -the start of the mage/templar war- had almost nothing to do with him, and would quite likely have unfolded whether he was there or not.

Did I miss something, or is this just weird and confusing, besides a bit unfair?

Hawke is a Catalyst, and I think the mage/templar war wouldn't have started without Hawke.
Without Hawke Betrand wouldn't have had the map of the deep roads or the money to start the expidition, so the idol Betrand sold wouldn't have made it into the hand of Meridith making her insane and seeing Blood mages around every corner. Also without Hawke would someone have killed the Arishok and ended the Quanri invasion which could result in Kirkwall being massacred/enslaved.

This isn't true. Varric was the one who knew about Anders. He could have just as easily gotten someone else to help him convince Anders to give them maps. As for the Arishok, the templars hadn't entered the battle yet, but if they had, the Quanari would've been dealt with. Anders would have blown up the Chantry regardess and mages and templars would be fighting.

Without Hawke and co, Varric wouldn't have made it out of the Deep Roads alive assuming they even *went* down there.

Remember that bit about needing 50 sovereigns to even start going down there in the first place? Yeah, Hawke was needed, not some random.

*think* people, seriously.

[ThomasBlaine]

Aether99 wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Christ, this is a calm and sensible discussion, where do you see otherwise?

did you gloss over the first page in this thread?  and it was one line, the rest of my post proceeded to offer something to this discussion.

just for tastes, one of the replies on the first page was nothing but how they wnted to see hawke not at all, or dead in a ditch.  just one example of course.

Hardly "baseless hatred", and that ONE remark was included in the opinion that seeing Hawke proceed into the sequel would be plain unreasonable everything considered.
Make no mistake, we're not bashing Hawke as a character, we're discussing the dysjunction between his supposed importance for the gameworld and what he actually does in the game.

[ThomasBlaine]

Adanu wrote...

Without Hawke and co, Varric wouldn't have made it out of the Deep Roads alive assuming they even *went* down there.

Remember that bit about needing 50 sovereigns to even start going down there in the first place? Yeah, Hawke was needed, not some random.

*think* people, seriously.

Yearh, because between Varric, Bertrand and every other halfway competent individual in Kirkwall, and, y'know, the dwarf in Low-Town who offers to imburse Hawke with that exact amount, 50 sovereings would have been impossible to aquire.

*behave yourself* on a polite forum board, seriously.

Besides there's absolutely no way to know how anything would have played out down there with anyone but Hawke guarding the merchants.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 03 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[Aether99]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Aether99 wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...

Christ, this is a calm and sensible discussion, where do you see otherwise?

did you gloss over the first page in this thread?  and it was one line, the rest of my post proceeded to offer something to this discussion.

just for tastes, one of the replies on the first page was nothing but how they wnted to see hawke not at all, or dead in a ditch.  just one example of course.

Hardly "baseless hatred", and that ONE remark was included in the opinion that seeing Hawke proceed into the sequel would be plain unreasonable everything considered.
Make no mistake, we're not bashing Hawke as a character, we're discussing the dysjunction between his supposed importance for the gameworld and what he actually does in the game.

ya so seeing him dead in a ditch isnt bashing, ok...

as for hsi importance its centralized not spread over a nation.  hes a very important person to kirkwall.  starts out nothing much in the first act.  but you do make a name for yourself.  after you achieve taht it gets more into the political nature of kirkwall, the chantry and mages.  and the whole, defeating the arishok and sending the qunari away thing.

what made him the champion of kirkwall was the qunari, in that respect he was important, very much so.  if it werent for him they could have taken over kirkwall. 

As for the rest its anything between amazing skill or complete exaggeration by varric as to his other accomplishments.  and yes there was no avoiding the ending for kirkwall.  But he was there for when it happened. and also put a stop to what was happening there (the two leaders going insane).

what wouldve happend if teh champion hadnt been there?  would it have gone down the same? better or worse?  same can be said for the warden.  would his lack of existance matter too much?  in the end you could say the blight gets worse but is stopped by some other warden later when the threat becomes big enough for other lands to take notice.

what about the countless lives the champion changed?  the boy who got money for his family thanks to him/her.  the children saved from the sad mages fate.  the templar saved from blood mages, the half elf saved, the qunari defeated, just a few of the many quests that would have actual impact on peoples lives.  just as the warden helped dailish/werewolves, dwarves, mages/templars etc.

obviously i personally do not consider him as important as the warden to the continent.  but to the people of kirkwall hes more important.  the story gives teh beginning and the end of how the champion came to be.  A exeptiopnal person that gets tangled with the affairs of others.

[ThomasBlaine]

Aether99 wrote...

obviously i personally do not consider him as important as the warden to the continent.  but to the people of kirkwall hes more important.  the story gives teh beginning and the end of how the champion came to be.  A exeptiopnal person that gets tangled with the affairs of others.

Agreed! But my exact point is that this simply doesn't line up with everything we've heard about Hawke being the most important figure in Thedas, and how everyone reveres him like a second Andraste in the endgame.

[lexan342]

Because Bioware wanted it that way.

You may as well ask "why the Warden?" while you're at it.

[kcman5]

I've read all the posts in the line of discussion.. As was mentioned earlier, He is nothing more than a catalyst. Someone has to start the chain of events and so he/she was chosen. He is the harbringer to the storyline, if you honestly stop and reflect.
1) Remember he takes the talisman to the Keeper and then to the mountain. We all know what happens there.
2) If you follow through, He helps Merryl re-create the mirror.. Nothing there I'm sure. Or have I seen that mirror elsewhere before in DLC on DAO 1?
3) He returns the item to the Grey Warden drop box and recieves a reply back thanking him from an Anonymous. *Nothing there I'm sure.
4) Yes he cannot effect the outcome of what Anders does to the Chantry, but he can to Anders afterwards.
5) Either choosing to support either the Templars or Mages.. Hmm.

Honestly sounds to me, that he does have some impact on future events.

Modifié par kcman5, 03 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[DAFerelden91]

Because Hawke made the Deep Road expedition deep enough and get the Idol possible?
Because Hawke stopped the Qunari from conquering Kirkwall,preventing them from killing every man,woman,child,mages and templars?
Because Hawke made Flemeth's resurrection and future confrontation between her and Morrigan possible?
Because Hawke's decision in siding with mages or templars,making the destruction of Chantry in every nation possible?
Because Hawke made the restoration of Eluvian,and the death of Keeper Marethari possible?
Because Hawke might have killed Anders in the end?
Because Hawke might have saved Anders from being killed by Templars before he blew up the Chantry?
Because Hawke might have saved Isabela from being killed by Hayder and Castillon,preventing her from reclaiming the relic that might start a war between Tevinter and Qunari?
Because Hawke might saved Aveline from the darkspawns,who becomes Guard Captain of Kirkwall later?
Because Hawke might have saved Feynriel,the only current Dreamer and possibly potential ally in the future?
Because Hawke might have saved Cullen from being killed by abomination?

Why the hell Hawke you asked?This is why.

[Scarletyoshi]

Could someone else have played his part? Perhaps. But they didn't. Hawke is the one who took the stage. Nobody remembers the understudy.

As far as the warden is concerned, the Blight is over. And with the Order restored you're tripping over wardens all over the place. What is the warden but a skilled fighter/apostate? The warden was there, just like Hawke. And when the curtain rose she was the one standing in center stage. And it was a glorious show, but maybe it's over now. Maybe it's time for someone else to take the spotlight.

And if I can go a little meta: The problem with having a lot of choices is that there are so many of them. I can't even imagine how they could continue a story that could have gone a thousand different directions while staying true to those choices. Part of the magic of Dragon Age: Origins it that your warden could really be your warden, so very different from someone elses. I like the story I crafted for my warden, maybe I didn't write it, but it's still my story. I don't know if I want it a hatchet taken to it so that it can fit a sequel. One protagonist is just easier, and that protagonist happens to be Hawke.

I see Dragon Age: Origins as just that, the origins of a world, a beggining. But if the story is going to continue it has to move past the first act. Is Hawke the best player, time will tell. But one thing's for sure, the show must go on.

Apologies for the long windedness, I have essays to write so I'm practicing my purple prose. I hope all of that was decipherable. Imay have drifted off topic a bit.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

kcman5 wrote...

I've read all the posts in the line of discussion.. As was mentioned earlier, He is nothing more than a catalyst. Someone has to start the chain of events and so he/she was chosen. He is the harbringer to the storyline, if you honestly stop and reflect.
1) Remember he takes the talisman to the Keeper and then to the mountain. We all know what happens there.
2) If you follow through, He helps Merryl re-create the mirror.. Nothing there I'm sure. Or have I seen that mirror elsewhere before in DLC on DAO 1?
3) He returns the item to the Grey Warden drop box and recieves a reply back thanking him from an Anonymous. *Nothing there I'm sure.
4) Yes he cannot effect the outcome of what Anders does to the Chantry, but he can to Anders afterwards.
5) Either choosing to support either the Templars or Mages.. Hmm.

Honestly sounds to me, that he does have some impact on future events.

you do know Anonymous is the fereldan warden during his amaranthine rule right? Just wanted to clear that up.
Both Hawke and the Warden are important because without them like Varrik says to the Seeker, " It probably wouldnt have ended the way it did." I.e Alistair would have probably had to go to the Warden homeland for help against Loghain. Duncan might not be dead, and King Cailan might still be king, had our Warden not entered the scene. Same for Hawke without him, Bartrand would have most likely never found the idol, Meredith would have not gone bat****e insane, and Orsino wouldnt have been a two faced ******( Like fenris says, " Mages seem to find only one answer when they get desperate."

Hell Ander;s wouldnt have had the balls to do what he did nor the connections. He would probably have been a tranquil by then. The Arishok would have probably kicked Arse, (im still a bit sore I couldnt help him take over kirkwall he was freaking AWESOME! I am devout to the Qun!)
However Hawke's involvement was really forced. I mean your forced to choose between the templar and the mages. Peace was never an option. Even if it wasnt canon it would have been nice. But you are forced to choose and seeing how your sister or you are an apostate mage it seems rather a douchebag move to side with templars. Even if meredith brought very VERY valid points to the table.

Modifié par TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain, 03 avril 2011 - 05:55 .

[VampireSoap]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

My thought about Hawke:

Hawke is an imaginary character derived from Varric story. No one knows whether he is alive or dead. Technically Hawke doesn't exist. In that sense, Hawke can't be role played by anyone. Hawke can't be anyone character but BioWare. Hawke is prime example of illusion of choices where he, the victim of incoherence voice tone suffer dysfunction personification of voiced protagonist. Not only that, Hawke suffer brain damage as he can blurt out dialogue lines without player input. Because of that, Hawke can't be loved and cared as those that stands in the hall of paragons of player characters like my beloved grey warden, Amber Cousland who sacrifice herself in the fifth blight. Hawke is now recognized as semi NPC with certain privilege of customization. As the result, Hawke character and story can not be personal. In addition, Hawke illusion of choices do not accomplish anything in the mage crisis that ultimately become apparent when Anders is responsible to change the world forever. However, BioWare insist that Hawke is the single most important person in Thedas because when he press button something awesome happens.

file:///C:/Users/JENNIFER/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-11.png[img]file:///C:/Users/JENNIFER/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-12.png

I lol'd:lol:

I lol'd too...I'm laughing so hard that I can barely breath.....

[erynnar]

Anexity wrote...

Hawke was less important in that he/she didn't defeat a huge evil. But DA2 wasn't about fighting a huge evil like DAO. It was about Hawke's rise from nothing to riches (and possibly beyond). The change in direction doesn't make Hawke less interesting. In fact Hawke can be MORE intersting because he/she shows more emotion than the Warden could.

Why does everyone keep bringing up the "uber epic, staple two archdemons and call it a super Blight, fighting a huge evil" story when anyone like me has a problem with Hawke? I don't need an "uber epic, staple two archdemons and call it a super Blight, fighting a huge evil" story (and yes I cut and pasted that rather than type it out again:lol:).  I would just have liked to have Hawke influence the ending of this story rather than being a victim of it.  And no, a rags to riches story does not interest me.  If you took Hawke out of the story, the events would transpire the way they do regardless. So what good is Hawke other than to serve as a movie screen for us to get the story from? IF they had let our Hawkes make an impact on the endings, and given us different endings from our choices?  That would have rocked. I would have more compulsion to create more Hawkes and different playthroughs to see how badly I ****ed up the world, and how it ****ed up the world. 

To me Hawke isn't epic, or that much of a hero, she is just a poor person who wound up in the wrong places at the wrong times (though why after a certain event happens which cuts her ties with Kirkwall she doesn't just leave, is never fully explained to us with any semblence of reality).

And just because Varric tells the Seeker that without Hawke it might not have ended the way it did? That's nice, but it was like we were being told that so we don't question the man behind the curtain. Just assume it wouldn't have come out the way it did without Hawke, but don't expect the game's story to make that argument for you. Just accept that as the truth. I like being shown not "told" in stories, and I prefer to show not tell when writing stories too.

edited for too much wine consumption's effects on punctuation.

Modifié par erynnar, 03 avril 2011 - 06:06 .

[Cobrawar]

I agree hawke isn't important at all. much of his "importance" is fabricated to give the player a false sense that hes a bad ass. Much of his history just isn't there for a player to care. hawke comes from lothering but how did he acquire his skill to become such a great fighter

[Merced652]

Cobrawar wrote...

I agree hawke isn't important at all. much of his "importance" is fabricated to give the player a false sense that hes a bad ass. Much of his history just isn't there for a player to care. hawke comes from lothering but how did he acquire his skill to become such a great fighter

By getting rolled by the darkspawn at ostagar obviously and his dad must've been a really good solider.. oh wait.. no he wasn't. Huh, guess he found the sword in the stone then.