Baelyn wrote...
Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
I'd call it reasonable speculation and perhaps theorizing. Callign it "assuming" implies that I have nothing to base my conclusions on. That isn't true. Challenge any part of what I just said and I'll be more than happy to back it up.
As for why it was clear to you that Hawke was necessary, I'm afraid that's begging the question. Basically, what you're saying in the above quote is that Hawke is important because the game says he is important. Furthermore, you don't touch up on the actual issue. No one is arguing that the game didn't say he was important. What we're arguing over is whether the merits presented in the game could reasonably makke him an important person in regards to how the events played out.
Me? I don't see that at all. Hawke went from a mercenary/smuggler, to some rich guy, to the champion. And that's all fine and good, but why does his decision matter in regards to whether he joins the templars or mages? They were going to fight anyway. All Hawke did was stop the Arishok in one city as well as help one of the aforementioned parties. Why on EARTH would the whole world be influenced by what he has to say? The mages rebelled because they saw that the templars could be oppossed and were fed up with the general treatment of mages. The templars stand up because they now see reason to believe that mages must be exterminated. Do you really think that Hawke's opinion is going to influence EITHER OF THESE FORCES when it has been established that it's not about Hawke and that they have clear reasons for doing what they are doing? Hell no. Did you see Cullen instantly taking Hawke's side against Meredith? No. He wanted to arrest him and only stood up to Meredith when it was clear this wasn't her goal. What about all those templars/mages you fight? I didn't see them instantly standing down even upon seeing Hawke. Which is incidentally another problem with this game. The premise is (Cassandra seeking Hawke) is weak. Anders caused the rebellion. Although I doubt the mages would listen to him if Cassandra were seeking him out, he is the one who set up the world war. NOT Hawke.
But I suppose I've gotten ahead of myself. We're talking about whether the events in the game would take place if there were no Hawke. So far, the only real argument I've seen countered against me is the issue of gathering 50 sovereigns. Considering Varric wasn't oppossed to getting the money from Batrands former friend offering it, I'm sure he would have gotten the money one way or another. At best, the expedition would have been postponed.
Well, semantics. But here you go..."You are assuming based on your logic and perception that XXXX." Either way it can't be proven (my thoughts or yours) without the developers actually coming out and saying "Yes this all would have happened without Hawke."
I'm inclined to disagree; there's nothing subjective about my analysis.
We can make reasonable inferences on matters which aren't outright
stated without reliance on develepor input. In fact, this is done
constantly in most discussions concerning the game.
And as for why he is important...It isn't simply that the game says so, its out of circumstance. Same as the Warden. They both have earned respect and status among people. This is why they are seeking him and the Warden out. It doesn't matter if Hawke held sway over what the outcome in Kirkwall according to the two sides. What matters is that the people came to him as their Champion to help. He already gained their support from his dealing with the Qunari, so when the next crisis arose they turned to him (as did both sides of the conflict)
Not quite. The Warden gained respect and status among people, thus when it comes to Grey Warden matters (i.e. stopping Darkspawn and keeping people safe), his input is given priority, hence why he was made into the Warden Commander during the events of awakening and was essentially put in charge of Vigil's keep in spite of there surely being other candidates more familiar with that area.
The same ought to apply to Hawke. Hawke gained respect and status amongst his people for protecting the city of Kirkwall. Thus, if he wanted to become Viscount of Kirkwall or be delegated to any other matter which involves protecting Kirkwall, it makes sense that he'd get the job easily. As you say, the people of Kirkwall came to him and he delivered. Thus, it's reasonable to believe that should there be a problem that needs rectifying in Kirkwall, Hawke is the go to guy.
What he didn't do was incite any rebellion. You can rewatch the epiogue. Regardless of your decision, the mages and templars decide for their own reasons that war is the solution to their problems. All Hawke does is (once again) protect Kirkwall from what he (or rather tha player) recognizes as the greater evil. This is not to say that no Templar or Mage would hold him in warm regards after the event, but I cannot in good faith believe that his accomplishments would make him the kind of person who can just tell one side to "cut it out", only for them to magically do as he says. Again, it's not about anything Hawke promoted (Hawke promoted nothing), but about legitimate hatred which has been brewing for ages, only for this event to serve as a catalyst to set everythign off.
Its obvious from Cassandra's reactions that what the general consensus of the people is concerning Hawke is that he started all of this (making it logical for her to assume he might be helpful in stopping it all) So she may now know the truth from Varric that he didn't actually do all of this stuff to intentionally start the war, but that is not how the rest of the world sees it. This making him important to the world out of his circumstance (being at the heart of it all when it happened).
Just as an aside, Flemeth obviously knows he has a larger part to play that we have yet to even see.
I didn't notice anything suggesting that the people would all magically listen to Hawke should he give his opinion on the matter. If that is the case though, I really have to question the writing in this game. There is really no reason people should be inclined change their beliefs based on Hawke's input on a matter as ancient and grandscale as this. There was already tension being built up before Hawke was even born and the reasons for this war have nothing to do with Hawke. Hawke was just damage control restricted to the city of Kirkwall as well as an excuse and nothing more. Even if people did believe that he planned the whole thing, I just don't see it.
Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 03 avril 2011 - 07:10 .
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