323 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

Byth wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

How about we start with Miriam and Old Barlin first? You know the letter which you received periodically? It's obvious they're quite closed to you, otherwise they won't be sending you their letter. Now tell me what do you know about them?

There's similar moments that happens in some of the origins actually.

City Elf: I wake up and some redheaded elf says "Hey cousin, it's your wedding. Y'know the one we've been planning all this time". Wait, who are you? What wedding? Who am I marrying?

Human Noble: My mother introduces me to people I supposedly met though I have little to no knowledge of who they are.

So yeah, origins did that too.

I'm still not sure Alistair gave me a rose,  I think he found some sort of freaky dwarven sex toy and tried to trick me!

[Taura-Tierno]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
I don't get it.

Which part you don't get it?

...  most of it?

How about we start with Miriam and Old Barlin first? You know the letter which you received periodically? It's obvious they're quite closed to you, otherwise they won't be sending you their letter. Now tell me what do you know about them? You are asked to checked your bank account in Kirkwall to receive funding from some prince of Starkhaven. What did you do? What is your bank account in Kirkwall? etc,,,

Wait... Let me help you. Don't bother to answer. Hawke knew and did all this things. You don't. 


Hawke was at the Gallows on that day. He knew what's actually happen. He knew why he's been attacked despite his support for the mages. You don't. Neither do I. Because we only hear it from Varric. How do we knows he's telling the truth? The whole story doesn't make any sense because If you're the actual Hawke you won't be trying to figure  out the truth. You know what happen to yourself. But you don't. You are the audience. You are not the actor. You just imagine what if Hawke do this and that.   
 

But Hawke is a fictional character ...? How on earth would you expect to know everything Hawke knows? It simply isn't possible. There were, as mentioned, similar events in DA:O where you had no control and no knowledge about what was going to happen/what did happen. That the human noble actually met some of those friends from the past doesn't change the fact that you don't get to know anything about them. Receiving the letters in DA2, you get to know that Hawke had friends in Lothering, and that they're still alive, and that he had history there, etc. In essence, that's no different than having friends you only talk to on the Internet, today. 

In Origins, I am the warden. There is no exaggeration. There is no third person narrator. My story is accurate. I am historical figure who people remember as long as it can be. No one argue what I did. Hawke on the other hand is merely a legend which everyone knows, had been twisted here and there. Hawke story is arguable as we are doing right now. No one knows the truth. No one takes the story seriously. It's important is as good as bedtime fairy tale. Imagine, the story of Hercules. Who's going to take it seriously compare to the story of Abraham Lincoln?

How do you know? Maybe in 500 years, the Grey Wardens are all dead and have been declared heretics by some religion, and no one believes any story about the Warden, and he/she is forgotten or ridiculed as an example of fairytales of blights and darkspawn. Or maybe some historian claims that "hey, the Warden didn't really do anything, it was this other person who did everything", falsifies some historical documents, and before you know it, the Warden was a big fat lier who took credit that was due somebody else. 

A hero is only a hero as long as history depicts him/her as such. Someone can do something wonderfully heroic and be forgotten or turned into a villain. Another person can do something evil, or something completely unimportant, or just be purely fortuitous, and be turned into a true legend. What really happened does not matter, only how the story is told. 

Since Hawke's story makes Hawke out to be a hero and a legend, that's what he is. Yes, people could argue against Hawke's story and claim it is mostly fiction. But the same can be said about the Warden's story. Sure, someone might have stopped the Blight. But a single Grey Warden who lead a handful of followers to doing it? Surely such a thing could not happen? Surely, there must have been many other Wardens present? Surely, the legend of the Hero of Ferelden must be just that - a legend, a fairytale. The story might be fact in Ferelden, but that doesn't mean it is in the Free Marches, or in Antiva, or on Par Vollen. Varric even refers to as "the legend of the hero of Ferelden". Anything with "Legend" in it is bound to contain exaggerations, sooner or later. 

Another example would be Andraste. The Chantry makes her into a true legend and a messiah and everything - but that doesn't mean that she did all of those things or was so important. It just means that that's what the Chantry says. No one really knows what happened during those times. The Chantry has an interested in maintaining that she's a legend, and everyone in the Chantry probably believes in it, but what Andraste really did or was is entirely open for debate. It's just that most people do believe in what she did, so most people don't see any reason to find faults in Andraste's story (if those faults do exist).

Modifié par Taura-Tierno, 04 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[FreyaWazHere]

Modifié par FreyaWazHere, 04 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[Eber]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

My thought about Hawke:

Hawke is an imaginary character derived from Varric story. No one knows whether he is alive or dead. Technically Hawke doesn't exist.

Hawke is a fall guy designed to take the blame in case they try to pin anything on Varric. The adventure version of businessman Elmand Tethras.

Aveline: You know the Tethras family businesses are registered in your cousin Elmand's name?
Varric: You don't say?
Aveline: But I can't find any record of you having a cousin Elmand.
Varric: I'll introduce you some time. He's a little on the shy side.
Aveline: Varric. He's imaginary.
Varric: Which makes him a much better head of the household than I am. He never misses the Merchants Guild meetings, for one.

Modifié par Eber, 04 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[Woodstock-TC]

totally loved hawke character. felt much more real and plausible than my DAO "Avatar"

[ji.Ruichi]

Maybe Bioware's building on to something for Hawke...... hopefully something that is not that lame this time. We'll see.

[xkg]

Adanu wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Dannybare wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...


What makes Hawke important enough to develop even one, let alone two games about?

After setting off the war, however it happens, Hawke really doesn't have any logical relevance to Thedas as a whole. The most important thing he does in the game is to keep Anders around in time to nuke the Chantry, at which point he's just another skilled fighter/apostate with a bit of money to his name and a reputation, either hated or respected by the Templars of Kirkwall.

Whereas the Warden is, you guessed it, a Grey Warden, and thus at least moderately essential to the safety of the people besides being the hero of Ferelden, Hawke is a shortly formulated borderline retard with nothing but a few bets placed in the coming war.

Desipte this, Bioware/EA advertises HAWKE as the ultimate hero and has decided that he's the one they want to build future games on, no justification whatsoever, seemingly because they expected the players to share their enthusiasm with him.

My biggest problem is exactly that, Hawke is treated as the Messiah of Thedas by Laidlaw, Bioware, and almost every major character in the game, while the only event in DA2 with any real importance to the overall state of the world -the start of the mage/templar war- had almost nothing to do with him, and would quite likely have unfolded whether he was there or not.

Did I miss something, or is this just weird and confusing, besides a bit unfair?

Hawke is a Catalyst, and I think the mage/templar war wouldn't have started without Hawke.
Without Hawke Betrand wouldn't have had the map of the deep roads or the money to start the expidition, so the idol Betrand sold wouldn't have made it into the hand of Meridith making her insane and seeing Blood mages around every corner. Also without Hawke would someone have killed the Arishok and ended the Quanri invasion which could result in Kirkwall being massacred/enslaved.

This isn't true. Varric was the one who knew about Anders. He could have just as easily gotten someone else to help him convince Anders to give them maps. As for the Arishok, the templars hadn't entered the battle yet, but if they had, the Quanari would've been dealt with. Anders would have blown up the Chantry regardess and mages and templars would be fighting.

Without Hawke and co, Varric wouldn't have made it out of the Deep Roads alive assuming they even *went* down there.

Remember that bit about needing 50 sovereigns to even start going down there in the first place? Yeah, Hawke was needed, not some random.

*think* people, seriously.

// spoiler //


but you know u can end act 1 with only 1 silver in your pocket and still be able to go on ???
all you have to do is borrow money from that mister nice dwarf


// spoiler//

so yessss hawke is so awesome i realy cant think of anyone else doing that yay

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Taura-Tierno wrote...
But Hawke is a fictional character ...? How on earth would you expect to know everything Hawke knows? It simply isn't possible. There were, as mentioned, similar events in DA:O where you had no control and no knowledge about what was going to happen/what did happen. That the human noble actually met some of those friends from the past doesn't change the fact that you don't get to know anything about them. Receiving the letters in DA2, you get to know that Hawke had friends in Lothering, and that they're still alive, and that he had history there, etc. In essence, that's no different than having friends you only talk to on the Internet, today.

I don't expect to know everything. But I don't appreciate doing things that I don't do. As I said, I never met the friends from Loitering. in DA O, I met Lady Leandra, her son and Iona. I was introduced to them. Elanor Cousland even remind me that I've met Lady Leandra before. There is backstory that tell me how I get to know them. 

City Elf, I don't plan the marriage, that's true. It was arranged by my father. A tradition where marriage is pre-arranged by the parents. I can understand that. I don't get to know my fiancee but I get to see her even for a brief time to know how she looks like. There're info to back up my background. 

In DA 2, I was presented letters from strangers who claim themselves my friends for no apparent reason and I left scratching my head. 

Taura-Tierno wrote...
How do you know? Maybe in 500 years, the Grey Wardens are all dead and have been declared heretics by some religion, and no one believes any story about the Warden, and he/she is forgotten or ridiculed as an example of fairytales of blights and darkspawn. Or maybe some historian claims that "hey, the Warden didn't really do anything, it was this other person who did everything", falsifies some historical documents, and before you know it, the Warden was a big fat lier who took credit that was due somebody else.

Problem is it's not 500 years later. It's period of 10 years. What you speculate is either just wild speculation or simply can't be happening in DA 2 timeline. Therefore, it's not an issue. The issue remains, Hawke is only a legend that no one know the truth. Hawke probably never exist in the first place. Or Hawke could be Meredith propaganda agent to incite revolt. And what amazed me, it doesn't take 500 years to make a legend from Hawke story considering the mage crisis just happen recently. 

Taura-Tierno wrote...
A hero is only a hero as long as history depicts him/her as such. Someone can do something wonderfully heroic and be forgotten or turned into a villain. Another person can do something evil, or something completely unimportant, or just be purely fortuitous, and be turned into a true legend. What really happened does not matter, only how the story is told. 

Since Hawke's story makes Hawke out to be a hero and a legend, that's what he is. Yes, people could argue against Hawke's story and claim it is mostly fiction. But the same can be said about the Warden's story. Sure, someone might have stopped the Blight. But a single Grey Warden who lead a handful of followers to doing it? Surely such a thing could not happen? Surely, there must have been many other Wardens present? Surely, the legend of the Hero of Ferelden must be just that - a legend, a fairytale. The story might be fact in Ferelden, but that doesn't mean it is in the Free Marches, or in Antiva, or on Par Vollen. Varric even refers to as "the legend of the hero of Ferelden". Anything with "Legend" in it is bound to contain exaggerations, sooner or later.

As human Noble Cousland, I was born by the Cousland family. I have friends I get to know and see with my own eyes before the event took place. I have my origin, past, present and destiny . . No one know any better about the story of Hero of Ferelden except I myself.  I knows what happen to both Amber cousland and Maverick Cousland. They have their own story. I know where they are now and their endings. I choose their path and destiny. I am their stories.

But Hawke?

Right from the beginning, I'm plucked out of thin air by Varric and thrust into battles after battles with little room to get to know my own character. Some of the info is in the codex, I know. I am related to Hero of Ferelden
 from Amell side. Yet even on this important issue, the story doesn't bother to tell me much considering I only know my mother and uncle Gamlen from Amell side. And while I am left wondering about my present days, I am to rely on third person narrator who have made it clear that he will make up some things as he progress? What am I suppose to think?

Heck I didn't even know my own story. This isn't role-play. This is novel bullcrap.

[CroGamer002]

My Hawke and Cousland must high five.

How is this relevant?



Hmh... *runs away*

[Lord_Kaza]

First i saw, i mawn the lawn.Then Hawke came, and I started a new game.

The game was stupid, hawke was  bad,I felt really sad.

When i thaught he will die, I met another stupid guy.

The end, the stupidest of all, i kicked it out right to the mall....


:innocent:

Modifié par Lord_Kaza, 04 avril 2011 - 10:50 .

[Wishpig]

God, I hope you don't play a Warden in DA3. They're certainly awesome and all, but the DA franchise has so much more potential than focusing on Wardens.

Wardens are incredibly restrictive... I mean they fight darkspawn... thats why they exist and thats what they do. I really hope DA2's failure doesn't push the devs back to the saftey of Warden vs Darkspawn. It's been done. Don't retred, don't do it to death. It would be such a waste of intresting lore.

There isn't much more to learn about Warden's, many of us have spent 100+ hours playing as one, and Darkspawn are are far from original opponents and will get boreing quickly if once agiant made tha main protaganists. I great deal of the darkspawn vs warden appeal is the fact we didn't know much about them, after two books, a game, an expansion, and even a DLC where you played as darkspawn, there isn't much left to uncover. This isn't The Witcher, this isn't The Warden, it's Dragon Age.

Wouldn't you much rather spend DA3 learning the ins and out of another exciting group? Imagine playing as an Antivan Crow!?

Or better yet, imagine them taking us to a completley unexplored region where everything is fresh and new and mysterious.

BUT I will say the Warden was more fun than Hawke. At least Hawke has a pimpin beard!

Modifié par Wishpig, 04 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The "Champion of Kirkwall" is the most ober-blown title ever.

A 100 qunari...against a nentire city. Laughable. Right after you kil lthe Arishok both mages and templars storm the keep.
So how exactly does it make Hawke indispensible? Had he failed, Meridith and Orsno would have cleaned up the place. The Qunari never had a real chacge at taking over the city...

[Axekix]

Wishpig wrote...

Wouldn't you much rather spend DA3 learning the ins and out of another exciting group? Imagine playing as an Antivan Crow!?

For me personally, not really.  That sounds more like sidequest/DLC material (ala Leli's Song) than something to base a full fledged game around. 

I'm much more interested in how all of this ties into whatever plan Flemeth has in motion.

One of my biggest disappointments about DA2 was the lack of answers regarding her.  We don't really know anything more about her than we did in DAO. 

DA2 kind of felt like one giant sidequest in that regard.  I really hope DA3 ties the lose ends together, whether that's playing as a warden or not.

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

This whle story with in a story has a very practical application. Bioware can now at any point retcon the whole story by saying Varric was lying/exaggerating. the same reason codex entries are "historical accounts" and not a manual to thedas.They want to be able to tell what ever story they want with out worrying about cannon.many Fans want to feel they were actually there when the important parts of history happened instead of just having heard rumors about it. the man who assassinated Arch Duke Ferdinand isnt the hero of Britain because his actions accidentally started the first world war and hawke is much the same. Even if he did pick a side at no point did he actually say he intended to start a continental civil war. Even he wasn't that dumb. At best he is completely unimportant individual who by being at the right places at the right time has won his reputation through luck lies and exaggeration, at worst hes the idiot who managed to turn the cosmopolitan frictions of kirkwall into two wars that may destroy thedas and kill millions.

[DAFerelden91]

Whoa,I can see a lot of drama queens around.
Get over it,guys.Dragon Age 2 has a great plot,which will definitely link the story to the next sequel.And Hawke is an amazing character with much more personalities than Warden will ever be.This is just a game,have fun,what's the point of taking it so serious?

[Mantaal]

Adanu wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Dannybare wrote...

ThomasBlaine wrote...


What makes Hawke important enough to develop even one, let alone two games about?

After setting off the war, however it happens, Hawke really doesn't have any logical relevance to Thedas as a whole. The most important thing he does in the game is to keep Anders around in time to nuke the Chantry, at which point he's just another skilled fighter/apostate with a bit of money to his name and a reputation, either hated or respected by the Templars of Kirkwall.

Whereas the Warden is, you guessed it, a Grey Warden, and thus at least moderately essential to the safety of the people besides being the hero of Ferelden, Hawke is a shortly formulated borderline retard with nothing but a few bets placed in the coming war.

Desipte this, Bioware/EA advertises HAWKE as the ultimate hero and has decided that he's the one they want to build future games on, no justification whatsoever, seemingly because they expected the players to share their enthusiasm with him.

My biggest problem is exactly that, Hawke is treated as the Messiah of Thedas by Laidlaw, Bioware, and almost every major character in the game, while the only event in DA2 with any real importance to the overall state of the world -the start of the mage/templar war- had almost nothing to do with him, and would quite likely have unfolded whether he was there or not.

Did I miss something, or is this just weird and confusing, besides a bit unfair?

Hawke is a Catalyst, and I think the mage/templar war wouldn't have started without Hawke.
Without Hawke Betrand wouldn't have had the map of the deep roads or the money to start the expidition, so the idol Betrand sold wouldn't have made it into the hand of Meridith making her insane and seeing Blood mages around every corner. Also without Hawke would someone have killed the Arishok and ended the Quanri invasion which could result in Kirkwall being massacred/enslaved.

This isn't true. Varric was the one who knew about Anders. He could have just as easily gotten someone else to help him convince Anders to give them maps. As for the Arishok, the templars hadn't entered the battle yet, but if they had, the Quanari would've been dealt with. Anders would have blown up the Chantry regardess and mages and templars would be fighting.

Without Hawke and co, Varric wouldn't have made it out of the Deep Roads alive assuming they even *went* down there.

Remember that bit about needing 50 sovereigns to even start going down there in the first place? Yeah, Hawke was needed, not some random.

*think* people, seriously.

My Hawke "died" 2 times in Deep roads.. i think anyone else could do that too

[Taura-Tierno]

Why is Columbus credited with discovering America? If he hadn't done, somebody else would have. Even though that has been disputed, he's still credited with it. Or take Rosa Parks. If she hadn't done what she did, somebody else certainly would have.  

Our history is full of people who have discovered things that probably would've been discovered by another person had they not been alive. Or people who have done deeds that would've been done by other people otherwise. Yet, these people became famous.

Just like Hawke. Hawke was there, and did those things. That's why he's famous.

Also, the Champion's story might not be old at all, but ... how is someone from Orlais supposed to know the details of what went down? They will just have heard stories told by traveling merchants or maybe some statement from Chantry. And the Chantry, for that matter, would probably love to lay the blame at a single person - Hawke - instead of being credited with part of that blame themselves. So, the Chantry probably contributed a lot to Hawke's story. Which means that Chantry supporters would hate Hawke, whereas Chantry opposers would love Hawke. Or the opposite, depending on what side he chose. 

And there is no way whatsoever for merchan #547 in Orlais, or farmer #1032 in Ferelden or even magister #54 in Tevinter to know precisely what happened, because they'll have heard rumours. And many facts about Hawke's earlier life are unknown. Even Cassandra believed that he and his companions arrived together in Kirkwall.

Modifié par Taura-Tierno, 04 avril 2011 - 02:04 .

[Taura-Tierno]

laecraft wrote...

Hawke has only one major flaw - he doesn't have a goal. No one and nothing can oppose a non-existent desire, so he doesn't have an opponent. Because of that, there is no main conflict. Therefore, there is no story. And as a result, there is no fun.

It doesn't have to be an epic goal, just any purpose at all. He has to want something badly enough so that all his actions are driven by that desire. The entertainment comes from getting what you want or failing to get what you want as you strive to achieve your goal while faced with formidable opposition. Each quest does have a tiny purpose, to provide a local satisfaction, but there is no one big driving purpose which would connect all those quests together. Each act has a separate agenda, and they feel like three short stories in one: personal survival, Qunari invasion, and mages-templars conflict. Yet there is no single driving force.

I still don't know what my Hawke really wanted. When I met that desire demon Caress in the Fade, I wish she'd tempted me and whispered to me, I sense your desire...So that I'd finally know my purpose! But no, she chooses to tempt my companions instead, even though I'm the only mage here and should be more susceptible. Is that because my Hawke did NOT have a desire? A frightening thought. Characters are defined by what they want.

How often do you have a single goal that permeates your entire life? Hawke's goal is to survive, and then to become something, and then to uphold his duty to Kirkwall as a Champion. Those are legitimate goals. It's only natural that your goals change as you move forward through life, and since the story spans several years, I don't consider it strange at all that he has different goals during different parts of his life. 

[Stegoceras]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

How often do you have a single goal that permeates your entire life? Hawke's goal is to survive, and then to become something, and then to uphold his duty to Kirkwall as a Champion. Those are legitimate goals. It's only natural that your goals change as you move forward through life, and since the story spans several years, I don't consider it strange at all that he has different goals during different parts of his life. 

But do act 2 and 3 even have a goal for Hawke other than helping everyone? Maybe he wants to move on in life but it's never mentioned beyond the first act. One goal spanning the entire game would have been nice, would have pulled everything together and gave the player an idea what to work towards. Instead of just peaking on the map where the quest markers are and systematically visiting them. and don't say it's unecessary or impossible, because obviously it was needed for a large group of players who felt they ran around without a clue and there are plenty of capable writers/employees at bioware that could have made/thought up a reasonable goal.

[Taura-Tierno]

I'm definitely not saying it's impossible or unnecessary. It would have been nice, but I don't think the lack of a goal spanning the entire game was a negative. In this particular game, the way they did it worked, imo. I do recognise that not everyone liked it, though, and I wouldn't have minded something game-spanning; it would have been a plus.

In act 3, Hawke was the champion, so I kind of thought of it as him doing his duty, or something like that. There were lots of trouble in the city, and people looked to him to solve them, and so, he did. That wasn't so much his personal goal with life, perhaps, but more like reality making demands of him and him being summoned by Meredith and Orsino and such.

In act 2, I saw Hawke's goal as trying to settle in, more or less. He's got his mansion and he's climbed up in the world, and so, he sort of went "yeah, this is my life now". I mean, he's basically a mercenary/bounty hunter/whatever, so I saw those missions as his work. And then there was that trouble with the Qunari, too. It felt simple and common, and I liked that perspective.

[PlumPaul93]

Cause Hawke has a set story that doesn't really have much variety, that they can shape any way that they want now. I don't know if Hawke will be in the next game but basically the reason he would be is because of this.

[Dark83]

Wishpig wrote...
Imagine playing as an Antivan Crow!?

Hitman: Antiva.

[Bowie Hawkins]

ThomasBlaine wrote...

The only -ONLY- thing he ever does for sure which has any real significance outside of the Wounded Coast, is making sure Anders stays in town long enough to decide to nuke the chantry, and that's assuming Anders can't or won't do it anyway, whether Hawke is there or not.

I must disagree. Preventing Kirkwall from falling to the Qunari is more than slightly significant.

[Sheogorath27]

I liked Hawke, Just as essential as the warden really, a catalyst that let the events unfold. Why rage about an rpg protaginost anyways, pc isnt going to be as well rounded as an npc simply because you control him and thus he varies. It was a fun game and he was just a vessel to move it along. Same as the warden and random people in elder scrolls and any other rpg out there.