200 réponses à ce sujet

[Corwyn]

jamesp81 wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...

I think my big problem is the time frame. It's seems like we've spread out everywhere with relatively large colonies in a very short period of time. I thought it would have been more realistic if ME had been set at least a century or so after the 1st Contact War.

Our colonies are pretty tiny. Compare something like Eden Prime to Illium.

I understand that but I still think they're bigger than they should be given the time that has past, not only the size but number of them and how established some them seem.  Like Bekenstein it was colonized in 2158 ME2 takes place in 2183 this is 25 years and Bekenstein is considered a first wave planet according to it's entry.  It has about 5 million people not just that but it's apparently a well established human trade and manufacturing world.

It's not just the colonies it's all sorts of little things that to me made it seem like too much had happened in too short a period of time.  Other people may have different opinions that's fine I simply feel the game would have been more realistic set further after first contact it's not game breaking or anything just a little thing that always kind of bugged me.

One generation is plenty of time to build a large manufacturing base.  The population is in line for a 25 to 30 year old colony, IMO.  Most of the residents probably immigrated from Earth anyway.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.  In my opinion 25 years is enough to start founding some cities, take advantage of natural resources, take care of necessities like power plants and infrastructure and maybe get some industry going.  It isn't enough time to become an industrial powerhouse that makes high end goods better than places that have been doing it for centuries.

Like I said earlier this isn't a game breaking flaw to me I'm not compaining that Bioware is the worst company ever it's just a minor annoyance that I felt would have been better with some time added to the timeline of events.

[jamesp81]

Macgarnickle wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...

I think my big problem is the time frame. It's seems like we've spread out everywhere with relatively large colonies in a very short period of time. I thought it would have been more realistic if ME had been set at least a century or so after the 1st Contact War.

Our colonies are pretty tiny. Compare something like Eden Prime to Illium.

I understand that but I still think they're bigger than they should be given the time that has past, not only the size but number of them and how established some them seem.  Like Bekenstein it was colonized in 2158 ME2 takes place in 2183 this is 25 years and Bekenstein is considered a first wave planet according to it's entry.  It has about 5 million people not just that but it's apparently a well established human trade and manufacturing world.

It's not just the colonies it's all sorts of little things that to me made it seem like too much had happened in too short a period of time.  Other people may have different opinions that's fine I simply feel the game would have been more realistic set further after first contact it's not game breaking or anything just a little thing that always kind of bugged me.

One generation is plenty of time to build a large manufacturing base.  The population is in line for a 25 to 30 year old colony, IMO.  Most of the residents probably immigrated from Earth anyway.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.  In my opinion 25 years is enough to start founding some cities, take advantage of natural resources, take care of necessities like power plants and infrastructure and maybe get some industry going.  It isn't enough time to become an industrial powerhouse that makes high end goods better than places that have been doing it for centuries.

Like I said earlier this isn't a game breaking flaw to me I'm not compaining that Bioware is the worst company ever it's just a minor annoyance that I felt would have been better with some time added to the timeline of events.

If Bekenstein were industrializing out of its own resources and population, you'd be right.

It wasn't, I'm certain.  I imagine the backers of the colony on earth poured huged sums of venture capital into the colony.  Building an industrial base from scratch takes time.  It takes a lot less time if you have another well developed industrial base (Earth) investing heavily in the project.

[Corwyn]

jamesp81 wrote...

If Bekenstein were industrializing out of its own resources and population, you'd be right.

It wasn't, I'm certain.  I imagine the backers of the colony on earth poured huged sums of venture capital into the colony.  Building an industrial base from scratch takes time.  It takes a lot less time if you have another well developed industrial base (Earth) investing heavily in the project.

I still feel it's too short a time especially considering that this wasn't the only colonial venture going on, we've literally spread all over.  Massive amounts of money are being spent I just don't think most companies would invest so heavily on building from scratch like that.  That's just my opinion on it, really neither of us can real be proved right or wrong and at the end of the day it's just a game.

[jamesp81]

Macgarnickle wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

If Bekenstein were industrializing out of its own resources and population, you'd be right.

It wasn't, I'm certain.  I imagine the backers of the colony on earth poured huged sums of venture capital into the colony.  Building an industrial base from scratch takes time.  It takes a lot less time if you have another well developed industrial base (Earth) investing heavily in the project.

I still feel it's too short a time especially considering that this wasn't the only colonial venture going on, we've literally spread all over.  Massive amounts of money are being spent I just don't think most companies would invest so heavily on building from scratch like that.  That's just my opinion on it, really neither of us can real be proved right or wrong and at the end of the day it's just a game.

I guess the investment in a colony world would be something like the "emerging market" investments you can do with some mutual funds, just on a grand scale.  Slightly OT, but given how current corporate thought process is to maximizing the short term bottom line, today's corporations probably wouldn't touch such a venture.

[Ashira Shepard]

Nyoka wrote...
A very human attitude. That's what I'd expect to hear from a human.

But I agree, the asari attitude is definitely strange...it just seems so alien to me. *wink wink*

See, that's what I mean. They need more things that seem patently strange to us. I never meant they shouldn't have that trait, no matter how strange I find it - it makes them different. 

[kaotician]

Clonedzero wrote...

humans are allowed into the citadel council because they save the citadel and galaxy.

i mean the mere fact that humans are making such a large impact on the galaxy in their fairly short time in the galactic scene is part of the reason why they're on the council now. i mean what species are you suggesting be the 4th council race if not human?

batarian? well they're slavers and hostile.
volus? they dont seem much more than merchants
elcor? they dont seem overly significant on the galactic scale.
hanar? big stupid jellyfish.

the 4 most influential races in the galaxy are humans, asari, taurian, and salarian. its pretty logical that the humans become the 4th council race. plus humans are pushy.

You're missing the OP's point. It's the very fact of the one-dimensional nature of these aliens, as you allude to in your descriptions, that's the problem. It verges on racist, really, although in-game we've had good and bad Asari etc. It reminds me a little of 80's Trek, where Klingons are always aggressive, those fellows with the big ears are always  avaricious - (not big noses, you understand, as that'd verge on anti-semitic, wouldn't it?) Or those really tall Trade Federation guys who talk like Japanese people in Star Wars - though, of course, they're not Japnese stereotypes really, as everyone knows Japs are really short guys instead etc.

[kaotician]

raist747 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I'm right there with you, OP, it's been driving me crazy. I'm still trying to figure out how the humans managed to take the turians by surprise in the FCW and were basically winning before the Council stepped in. Their first encounter with a sentient race that had far superior techonology to their own and they somehow are able to overpower them? What is this, I don't even..

I'm tired of humans being special, it's an urealistically optimistic way to view things.

History is riddled with cases of a overconfident, advanced army getting its ass kicked by a less advanced force. Look at the Zulus tearing the British Empire a new one in the late 19th century, with bow and arrows. Numerous battles in the American Revolution until the French stepped in.

Its also mentioned that the Taurians were about to wind up their war machine, seeing how well we delt with their  lone expedition force, and would have curb-stomped us with shear numbers and firepower if the Council did not step in.

Other than that, I agree with the OP on the other points.

Or Custer at thhe Little Big Horn, Vietnam etc......

[kaotician]

I think those Prothean relics on Mars are especially significant, myself, along with that 'Caveman' vision we get at the abandoned Prothean site in ME1. In my view, 50, 000 years ago and facing extinction, it wasn't just the Relay tech that the Protheans improved on in their battle with the Reapers - I think they 'improved' the human genome, and that's why we've accelerated so far, so fast relative to other species' development in the ME universe, as many others have alluded to in this thread. We're a Special Weapons project of the Protheans, a bullet fired 50,000 years ago and aimed squarely at the heart of the Reapers.......

Modifié par kaotician, 04 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Knightsire wrote...

It is an optimistic view of humanity within a futuristic sci-fi fantasy universe.  Our lives are short and we want to think that what we did before we die had some meaning and so maybe we are in more of a rush to advance.

That's more or less the long and short of it. It's not like humanity hasn't contributed meaningful things to the galaxy--for one, they invented medi-gel, a goddamn miracle salve, which by itself would put humans on the map. Given how quickly humans made their way into colonial and trading significance, getting an embassy isn't that farfetched. The emphasis on "individualism" in humanity's culture also has the peculiar side-effect of channeling itself into a species-wide focus, which is why humans have had a tendency to be forceful and human-centric in their galactic dealings. They're essentially the new minor mob-boss in town who pulled off a daring crime and suddenly earned the fear and respect of the mafia dudes who were already there. Figuratively speaking.

That said, they probably wouldn't have made it into the Council for quite some time if it weren't for Shepard and Saren. Either the Council becomes convinced they can pull their own weight, or the Council gets blow'd up and the Alliance takes advantage of the momentary power-vaccuum. This part is the most realistic of all--it took extremely extraordinary circumstances, kind of like how the Turians got their seat (they proved invaluable during a major war).

Having an embassy so soon is an achievement, but having an embassy just means you're important enough to be recognized as a sizable force in the galaxy, which just means they happen to be at least on-par with the Hanar. Not much of an accomplishment, that.

The diversity thing is a shallow excuse for ME humans falling into the usual fantasy trope that casts humans as the most varied race while all of the other races tend to mostly fall into personality stereotypes. This annoys me, but as it's really no different than a billion other RPGs and fantasy worlds, I don't really see the point in singling Mass Effect out. Frankly, the existence of a race of sexy blue-skinned women that routinely mate with either other blue-skinned women or with actual women strikes me as less realistic and more contrived than anything this thread complains about.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 04 avril 2011 - 06:44 .

[Katamariguy]

IMHO all the alien diversity is implied rather than explicit.

[armass]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

The diversity thing is a shallow excuse for ME humans falling into the usual fantasy trope that casts humans as the most varied race while all of the other races tend to mostly fall into personality stereotypes. This annoys me, but as it's really no different than a billion other RPGs and fantasy worlds, I don't really see the point in singling Mass Effect out. Frankly, the existence of a race of sexy blue-skinned women that routinely mate with either other blue-skinned women or with actual women strikes me as less realistic and more contrived than anything this thread complains about.

I think the asari were created pretty much as blue alien space babes. As a race i think they are borderline sexist creation and pretty much add in the universe only as strippers in alien clubs or love intrests for anyone, since the creators dont seem to want add other alien women there. Face it, this race was handwoven for the 18-30 year old human males.

They are a pretty common tv trope also.

http://tvtropes.org/...kinnedSpaceBabe

Modifié par armass, 04 avril 2011 - 11:42 .

[Valikdu]

AshiraShepard wrote...

You probably have just infected several people with the TVTropes disease.
What are you thinking?

[Ashira Shepard]

Valikdu wrote...

You probably have just infected several people with the TVTropes disease.
What are you thinking?

Honestly not my intention...


Oh my god I just thought of a terrible game...

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 04 avril 2011 - 12:04 .

[aimlessgun]

kaotician wrote...
You're missing the OP's point. It's the very fact of the one-dimensional nature of these aliens, as you allude to in your descriptions, that's the problem. It verges on racist, really, although in-game we've had good and bad Asari etc. It reminds me a little of 80's Trek, where Klingons are always aggressive, those fellows with the big ears are always  avaricious - (not big noses, you understand, as that'd verge on anti-semitic, wouldn't it?) Or those really tall Trade Federation guys who talk like Japanese people in Star Wars - though, of course, they're not Japnese stereotypes really, as everyone knows Japs are really short guys instead etc.

And like I said earlier, that's not actually true in ME, at all. The aliens are very individuated. The OP is trying to force a criticism that isn't there.

[Soahfreako]

Ahh.. Applying realism to fictional universes. Always has the same effect on me: Laughter.

[Ashira Shepard]

I'm not trying to force anything. I'm not getting angry that people are disagreeing or debating, I'm interested in how other people see it.

I'm noting Bioware's use of "humans are special." I just wish they showed the alien's collective differences next to humans more.

Soahfreako wrote...

Ahh.. Applying realism to fictional universes. Always has the same effect on me: Laughter.

Ha-ha-ha. <_<

It's little things that add up to break someone's "Willing Suspension of Disbelief." I'm not asking about the realism behind the technology or the governments or anything, I'm asking why the hell humans are so damn special in a universe full of other intelligent species.

We're not that interesting.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 04 avril 2011 - 01:04 .

[Soldier989]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Mass Effect universe is fundamentally an extremely improbable one. There is no evidence that interstellar civilizations even exist, or can exist. Much less FTL travel or any kind of meaningful interaction between different species. In reality the tech disparities would be too great.

Angels and Cave Men.

Saying FTL travel isn't possible is stupid, we have no way of testing out if it's possible or not, and our entire understanding of physics (which is kinda limited) could be shattered by a machine in Europe (the Large Hadron Collider), so we basically have no right at all to say things like that would never be possible because we barely understand our own planet and how things on it work.

[aimlessgun]

AshiraShepard wrote...

I'm not trying to force anything. I'm not getting angry that people are disagreeing or debating, I'm interested in how other people see it.

I'm noting Bioware's use of "humans are special." I just wish they showed the alien's collective differences next to humans more.

Yeah it would definitely be interesting to see more really alien stuff. And setting humans above everyone else is quite annoying: maybe because they're mostly not showing us believable examples, but just telling us humans are special.

AshiraShepard wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

Ahh.. Applying realism to fictional universes. Always has the same effect on me: Laughter.

Ha-ha-ha. <_<

It's little things that add up to break someone's "Willing Suspension of Disbelief." I'm not asking about the realism behind the technology or the governments or anything, I'm asking why the hell humans are so damn special in a universe full of other intelligent species.

We're not that interesting.

The whole "well some stuff is unrealistic so nothing has to make sense!" argument is laughable. Like you say, it's little things adding up. Realism is not an all or nothing proposal, it is a continuum.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 04 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes, the Mass Effect timeline is rather non-believable. As is the Mass Effect depiction of demographics (incredibly irrelevant in comparison to shipbuilding capacity), warfare (why do we care about ground armies when it's space that decides?), logistics (decades-long-adaptations taking place in years), and even character histories.

These are all things that have been obvious since ME1 came out.

It certainly would have been nicer for them to put two specific factors to justify Humanity's presence: first, a lot more build-up post-Mars: a hundred-years, or a similar multi-generational timespan. Get the infrastructure up.

A second would have been to let humans be one of (a few) 'fast-grower' species. Whereas most fast-breeders in the galaxy would have long since practiced voluntary enforced birth control (Salarians), had involuntary birth control forced upon them (Krogans), or been too stupid/unorganized to make their numbers work for them (Vorcha). Humanity's 100-odd years of uninterrupted exponential expansion growth would have been a basis for getting to size of galactic relevance, and the appearance of Humanity would have been akin to stepping out of the front door and finding a 800-pound bear in the driveway.

The population concern would have also been a good factor in pre-ME1 stresses between Humanity and the Council, with one of the things the Council wants to do is to try and put humans into the existing galactic 'stable growth' system they have in all their members (like the Turians) to more or less keep them all at the Asari growth rate, on the basis that if everyone grows at similar (slow) rates, no one will be the next Krogan. Naturally, Humanity isn't too inclined to halve their birth rate... and, as Humanity isn't innately hostile or unreasonable, the Council doesn't want to start a war over it.

[Pwener2313]

The OP is obviously not human since less the 30 years ago, something as a "touch screen wasn't even myth, let alone being planned. We Humans *are* special. Less then 1000 (one Asari lifespan) years and we advance from cave man to the point of planning how to build FTL engines. How many lifetimes did it take the Asari to advance to the point of our modern society? Too many.....

Modifié par Pwener2313, 04 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[esideras]

The whole we are cave men and they are angels is just a theory.
The whole thing that if and alien race would check out earth it would probably ignore the humans as primitve creatures, all that is just BS.
We aren't stupid, it's like when people believe that aliens helped us build the pyramids etc because we aren't 100% sure how they pulled it off.

[Pwener2313]

Where did that come from? I was just expressing a point through a metaphor.

[Kelgair]

I haven't read most of the thread so I'm mostly replying to Ashira's OP.

Can I just point out that the human race is awesome? It's a "trope" sure, but how long did it take from finding practical uses for electricity for us to split the atom? To break orbit? To reach the moon? If we had a serious concerted effort how long would it take to reach mars (and return) do you think? Especially after about 120 years from our current tech advances. And if you handed to us on a silver platter what is possibly thousands of years of research via an alien research station that just requires a good linguist to get into.... Compare, minus the theoretical, all that to living in what amounts in modern times to living in squalor for thousands of years.

"How could any Humans have possibly learned all there is to know about the galaxy to the point were they can join the over-arching government power?" Two things. The past 300 years in poli-sci has given us a BROAD range of political theory. Also, something called the extranet.

And the diversity of species argument. Well, shall I just point out that the species of your favorite character (yes Samara is one of my fav chars too . And ignoring the curious notion that an alien species can be "just like us". If Asari suffered the planet of hats trope. Could you honestly have a sect of Asari called Justicars who devoted their live to following a code and killing their code version of evil, when one part of that evil could be a genetic defect called Ardat-Yakshi. They don't just hunt that they hunt all "evil". Why would a purely Asari village worship an AY if they weren't a slight throwback to an earlier Asari culture that worshiped the genetic defects of purebloods. Can you compare those Asari to Liara, Aria, Benezia, or even the Asari councilor? And what other Asari cultures are held within the space of quite possible hundreds of billions of Asari?

[kaotician]

aimlessgun wrote...

kaotician wrote...
You're missing the OP's point. It's the very fact of the one-dimensional nature of these aliens, as you allude to in your descriptions, that's the problem. It verges on racist, really, although in-game we've had good and bad Asari etc. It reminds me a little of 80's Trek, where Klingons are always aggressive, those fellows with the big ears are always  avaricious - (not big noses, you understand, as that'd verge on anti-semitic, wouldn't it?) Or those really tall Trade Federation guys who talk like Japanese people in Star Wars - though, of course, they're not Japnese stereotypes really, as everyone knows Japs are really short guys instead etc.

And like I said earlier, that's not actually true in ME, at all. The aliens are very individuated. The OP is trying to force a criticism that isn't there.

Nah, not it, at all. Take a look again at who I was quoting from, and you can see the same easy descriptions 4 times over. Sorry you don't see it, but there we are.