301 réponses à ce sujet

[Rurik_Niall]

Terror_K wrote...


Right. And we already have a perfectly capable shuttle for that, making the vehicle even more redundant in that sense.

I also can't help but notice that defenders of The Hammerhead always tend to speak about it from a purely gameplay perspective while ignoring the completely impracticality of the thing from a real-world perspective. And to be honest, it's the jarring, illogical nature of it all that's the biggest problem. The fact that it's more zippy and arcadey, etc. is for the most part its curse more than its blessing, even if these factors can make it a more "fun" experience gameplay wise. I'm sure somebody will say, "if it's so unrealistic and practical, how come it actually functions then?!" but that would be ignoring the fact that the nature of the Mass Effect universe has to shift and warp to accomodate it and make it work.

Gee, imagine that, being concerned about having fun while playing a game, why it's almost as if some people think the sole purpose of a game is to have fun! (Oozing sarcasm mode deactivated.)

[lazuli]

Terror_K wrote...
The problem with The Hammerhead overall is that while it fixes The Mako's two main issues (i.e. speed and handling) pretty much every other single factor about the thing is worse than The Mako, and not by a small amount. And those two better factors do not in any way make up for how horrendously bad The Hammerhead is otherwise, both from a gameplay perspective and a real-world/practicality standpoint.

I don't think we'll ever agree about the importance of realism in games, but it seems we can agree that the MAKO was imperfect and that the Hammerhead was a flawed solution, if it can even be called that.  I am thankful the Hammerhead is largely optional, but that is no excuse for its most glaring issues.

Honestly I think the targeting is my least favorite part about the Hammerhead.  It's as if it were trying to be counter-intuitive.

[Terror_K]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Gee, imagine that, being concerned about having fun while playing a game, why it's almost as if some people think the sole purpose of a game is to have fun! (Oozing sarcasm mode deactivated.)

Just the kind of response I expected given your previous posts actually. Which proves my point: that you think those who prefer immersion and want to actually take the Mass Effect universe seriously and see it more than just a couple of games have to take one for the team just so a bunch of people who don't really care about it beyond it being another few games can have fun.

Sorry, but as much as I like a game to be fun as well, when you're dealing with a type of game that's supposed to be about being an immersive experience that transcends the gameplay and becomes something more, pissing all over the universe with bad design decisions isn't the way to go about it. And that's exactly what The Hammerhead does: it turns Mass Effect into a silly little childish game rather than an immersive experience.

And on top of it all, I don't really find it particularly fun either personally. I can see why people may find it moreso than The Mako from a purely gameplay perspective in a sense that it's less slow and tedious, but that's about where my understanding ends. And it's not enough to me, and not worth creating more gaping cracks and holes in the Mass Effect universe to do it.

[Rurik_Niall]

It's a game, its purpose is to be fun and enjoyable, this must always come first and foremost. You can't sacrifice gameplay for the sake of immersion, if you do that you end up with a sucky game which defeats the entire purpose. You could create the most immersive game ever, it won't matter if the gameplay sucks though because hardly anyone will actually want to play it.

[wizardryforever]

Terror_K wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Notanything wrote...

I felt the Hammerhead's light armor was warranted, a kinetic barrier would be a nice addition though. The fragility of it though seemed reasonable though, the hover jets were relatively exposed, and overall, since it was meant to hover as a means for travel, I would assume it would mean that it would have to be light in weight, and armor.

The thing is though, if something's that light in armour then you wouldn't take it into combat.  You'd just use it to get you to and from combat zones quickly.

Right. And we already have a perfectly capable shuttle for that, making the vehicle even more redundant in that sense.

I also can't help but notice that defenders of The Hammerhead always tend to speak about it from a purely gameplay perspective while ignoring the completely impracticality of the thing from a real-world perspective. And to be honest, it's the jarring, illogical nature of it all that's the biggest problem. The fact that it's more zippy and arcadey, etc. is for the most part its curse more than its blessing, even if these factors can make it a more "fun" experience gameplay wise. I'm sure somebody will say, "if it's so unrealistic and practical, how come it actually functions then?!" but that would be ignoring the fact that the nature of the Mass Effect universe has to shift and warp to accomodate it and make it work.

Well the Hammerhead does make sense within the lore, and works well as an explorative IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle).  This nonsense about it not being able to function on ME1 world is exactly that, nonsense.  Not only would it be much faster, and easily avoid some of the trouble spots of the Mako, it would have fewer issues with terrain.  The whole "environmental hazards" thing is out of context.  I don't have the stats for the individual planets, but do we know for a fact that any of the Mako planets were colder than the one Hammerhead mission?  From what we can see, the Hammerhead suffers no problems on very hot planets, given how close the thing can get to lava, making it on par with the Mako.  It's just as sealed, just as droppable (more so, even), just as suited to exploration as the Mako.  I fail to see how it doesn't work as advertised.

The Hammerhead's speed is its strong point, and should be utilized in lieu of armor and in some cases firepower.  It makes much more sense for a recon vehicle to be fast and agile than slow and clunky.  Besides, what if there's anti-air defenses around and you need a fast way to get there?  Can't use the shuttle.  The Hammerhead is ideal for that as well, unlike the Mako.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 06 avril 2011 - 05:11 .

[Notanything]

Terror_K wrote...

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Gee, imagine that, being concerned about having fun while playing a game, why it's almost as if some people think the sole purpose of a game is to have fun! (Oozing sarcasm mode deactivated.)

Just the kind of response I expected given your previous posts actually. Which proves my point: that you think those who prefer immersion and want to actually take the Mass Effect universe seriously and see it more than just a couple of games have to take one for the team just so a bunch of people who don't really care about it beyond it being another few games can have fun.

Sorry, but as much as I like a game to be fun as well, when you're dealing with a type of game that's supposed to be about being an immersive experience that transcends the gameplay and becomes something more, pissing all over the universe with bad design decisions isn't the way to go about it. And that's exactly what The Hammerhead does: it turns Mass Effect into a silly little childish game rather than an immersive experience.

And on top of it all, I don't really find it particularly fun either personally. I can see why people may find it moreso than The Mako from a purely gameplay perspective in a sense that it's less slow and tedious, but that's about where my understanding ends. And it's not enough to me, and not worth creating more gaping cracks and holes in the Mass Effect universe to do it.

So what do you propose as the placeholder for these potentially immersion breaking game devices then?  I never even considered the potential immersive breakers in the Mass Effect series, mostly because everything about it from the codex, to the backstories of various planets kept me immersed pretty well.

[Pacifien]

Immersion isn't an entirely helpful word in making one's argument because what it takes for someone to feel immersed, or somehow personally invested, in one's gaming environment is different for everyone. For instance, the guy who insisted that 3D enhanced immersion and that games were lesser for not having it. Just how realistic does a game have to be in order to be adequately immersive? Are highly stylistic games like, say, Psychonauts completely incapable of immersion?

It's just a really subjective word to be using, I think.

[Akizora]

Pacifien wrote...

Immersion isn't an entirely helpful word in making one's argument because what it takes for someone to feel immersed, or somehow personally invested, in one's gaming environment is different for everyone. For instance, the guy who insisted that 3D enhanced immersion and that games were lesser for not having it. Just how realistic does a game have to be in order to be adequately immersive? Are highly stylistic games like, say, Psychonauts completely incapable of immersion?

It's just a really subjective word to be using, I think.

Indeed, the hammerhead worked pretty well in Overlord though since the map was fairly large and consistent and designed to work well with the hammerhead. The MAKO however was not designed to work well with the random worlds since it would jump around like a toycar and handle like a toaster on wheels.

The biggest problem wasn't the MAKO itself, it was that the leveldesign was lazy and not done to accomodate its handling and functionality. I hated the worlds where there was almost no terrain that I could travel across without driving over spikes of non-aliased terrain.

[Notanything]

Pacifien wrote...

Immersion isn't an entirely helpful word in making one's argument because what it takes for someone to feel immersed, or somehow personally invested, in one's gaming environment is different for everyone. For instance, the guy who insisted that 3D enhanced immersion and that games were lesser for not having it. Just how realistic does a game have to be in order to be adequately immersive? Are highly stylistic games like, say, Psychonauts completely incapable of immersion?

It's just a really subjective word to be using, I think.

Frankly, the more games start looking like true "life", and even acting in the same way, the more I'd rather just go outside and do my own things.  Realism in games should be considered only to a certain degree.  But you're right, the definition of immersion suits difference tastes, just like what perhaps makes a game good.

[Pacifien]

Akizora wrote...
The biggest problem wasn't the MAKO itself, it was that the leveldesign was lazy and not done to accomodate its handling and functionality. I hated the worlds where there was almost no terrain that I could travel across without driving over spikes of non-aliased terrain.

I very much agree with this. I never had a problem with the Mako. I did have a problem getting stuck on 70 degree inclines. I mean, some of those planets had fierce winds, didn't they? Smooth dunes and plains at least?

That said, I like controlling the Hammerhead because I not-so-secretly want a hovercraft. In real life.

[Akizora]

Pacifien wrote...

Akizora wrote...
The biggest problem wasn't the MAKO itself, it was that the leveldesign was lazy and not done to accomodate its handling and functionality. I hated the worlds where there was almost no terrain that I could travel across without driving over spikes of non-aliased terrain.

I very much agree with this. I never had a problem with the Mako. I did have a problem getting stuck on 70 degree inclines. I mean, some of those planets had fierce winds, didn't they? Smooth dunes and plains at least?

That said, I like controlling the Hammerhead because I not-so-secretly want a hovercraft. In real life.

Fierce winds indeed, I mean it would have been very cool to drive across a huge desert with remains of temples scattered across fields and random entrances to underground pathways containing hidden items/upgrades, secrets and story elements.

[Rurik_Niall]

Notanything wrote...

Frankly, the more games start looking like true "life", and even acting in the same way, the more I'd rather just go outside and do my own things.  Realism in games should be considered only to a certain degree.  But you're right, the definition of immersion suits difference tastes, just like what perhaps makes a game good.

Agreed, I play games for the same reason I watch TV and movies, read comics and books, to escape from reality, I don't want my escapist mediums reminding me how much reality sucks.

[Terror_K]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well the Hammerhead does make sense within the lore, and works well as an explorative IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle).  This nonsense about it not being able to function on ME1 world is exactly that, nonsense.  Not only would it be much faster, and easily avoid some of the trouble spots of the Mako, it would have fewer issues with terrain.

No it wouldn't. The Hammerhead can't go up a slope that's any more than about 40 to 45 degrees, and even then it has to be fairly smooth beneath it. The Mako can climb up rocky terrain at angles of about 80 degrees or so. The only place The Hammerhead would thrive is mostly smooth, flat places and places like the overly-designed ones in its specific missions that are extremely smooth and gradual with lots of near on flat rocky tors to jump up onto like steppy stones, etc.

The whole "environmental hazards" thing is out of context.  I don't have the stats for the individual planets, but do we know for a fact that any of the Mako planets were colder than the one Hammerhead mission?

Yes, we do. The planet where The Hammerhead freezes up if there for more than a couple of minutes is Lattesh, and the temperature there is -53°C. There are places colder here on Earth than that that modern day vehicles can traverse on for longer, and yet this is supposed to be a futuristic exploration vehicle for deep space that's going to planets far further away from their suns than Earth is and thus far colder. The Mako on the other hand goes to a planet called Mavigon that drops to -124°C and has no issues at all.

From what we can see, the Hammerhead suffers no problems on very hot planets, given how close the thing can get to lava, making it on par with the Mako.

It's stated that its engines can be prone to overheating, especially if using them a lot (the whole limitation to boosting and jumping is based on heat in fact). If it was on an extremely hot world this would just make things worse, that's just science right there. There's nothing to protect them from the heat after all.

It's just as sealed, just as droppable (more so, even), just as suited to exploration as the Mako.  I fail to see how it doesn't work as advertised.

Despite the fact that it can't take a hit, can't take extreme temperatures, can't climb anything too step or traverse anything too rocky and has inferior weaponry.

The Hammerhead's speed is its strong point, and should be utilized in lieu of armor and in some cases firepower.  It makes much more sense for a recon vehicle to be fast and agile than slow and clunky.  Besides, what if there's anti-air defenses around and you need a fast way to get there?  Can't use the shuttle.  The Hammerhead is ideal for that as well, unlike the Mako.

But The Hammerhead isn't a recon vehicle, it's supposedly an exploration one. Exploration isn't about speed, it's about taking your time and examining the environment, and you have to be capable of dealing with the unknown out there. The Hammerhead's speed would also be considered reckless on most planets I would think. Its armaments are inferior in every sense, with slow-moving missiles that often miss and would take up more room than the mass cannon The Mako has that hits almost instantly, would have far more rounds that take up less room and does far more damage. Plus the mako has a machine gun as well.

Sure, once again one can point to speed and handling, but again this is an exploration vehicle. This isn't a race car. And that's basically what the comparison is like: The Hammerhead is like sending a formula one racing car to do the job of an armoured, all-terrain combat vehicle. It's not that The Hammerhead is a complete failure of a vehicle overall, it's that it's a complete failure of a vehicle for its purpose.

[Terror_K]

When I say "realism" and "immersion" though I don't mean so much with regards to real life for us, but in consistency and logic with regards to the Mass Effect universe. As Delirious Jedi put it earlier, it "decreases the world integrity of the Mass Effect setting" to have things like this.

The Hammerhead just defies all logic and common sense. For a universe to feel real and thus immersive overall it needs logical boundaries and rules and it needs to remain consistent to them. BioWare originally did such a great job of crafting a deep and believable universe, but then things like The Hammerhead having so many logical flaws and being a massive step backwards from an in-universe and logical perspective to the point of making it a joke just ruin this and spit all over it, much like the whole thermal clips nonsense and squaddies running around without proper protection do as well.

If you can't take the universe seriously because it constantly keeps poking holes in itself and making itself look farcical and illogical, then how can you be immersed? If ME3 came along and without any explanation we suddenly had a companion who was a leprechaun with magical powers would you still be immersed as long as the gameplay with him was fun?

Modifié par Terror_K, 06 avril 2011 - 05:44 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Bring back the Hammerhead. Fix the combat problems. There. Everyone @$%^ing wins.

Except people who like finicky moon-buggy physics and bland environments, I suppose.

EDIT: Also, arguing the logic of the Hammerhead in a universe that had flying cars from the start seems, to me, most illogical.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[Rurik_Niall]

By just rolling with it. This isn't reality, I can accept just about anything in this setting without even a slight loss of immersion, I find clipping far more immersion breaking than any vehicle or cleavage ever could achieve, and even then it's a momentary annoyance and I'm back to enjoying myself. Want to give me a leprechaun? Sure, why not, I can believe there's a race of space leprechauns in the galaxy somewhere, there's a race of psychic blue space chicks that can potentially be space succubi, what's one more space analogue to a mythical creature?

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 06 avril 2011 - 05:50 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

I find clipping far more immersion breaking than any vehicle or cleavage ever could achieve, and even then it's a momentary annoyance and I'm back to enjoying myself.

This, this, THIS.

Something both Dragon Age and Mass Effect REALLY need to fix.

Mutant eyelids were also annoying, but I like to have mercy on dead horses.

[wizardryforever]

Terror_K wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well the Hammerhead does make sense within the lore, and works well as an explorative IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle).  This nonsense about it not being able to function on ME1 world is exactly that, nonsense.  Not only would it be much faster, and easily avoid some of the trouble spots of the Mako, it would have fewer issues with terrain.

No it wouldn't. The Hammerhead can't go up a slope that's any more than about 40 to 45 degrees, and even then it has to be fairly smooth beneath it. The Mako can climb up rocky terrain at angles of about 80 degrees or so. The only place The Hammerhead would thrive is mostly smooth, flat places and places like the overly-designed ones in its specific missions that are extremely smooth and gradual with lots of near on flat rocky tors to jump up onto like steppy stones, etc.

Sure it can, the boost function can be used like a rocket engine, shooting the vehicle up the slope.  Besides, it's not like the Mako was especially good at climbing mountains either you know.

The whole "environmental hazards" thing is out of context.  I don't have the stats for the individual planets, but do we know for a fact that any of the Mako planets were colder than the one Hammerhead mission?

Yes, we do. The planet where The Hammerhead freezes up if there for more than a couple of minutes is Lattesh, and the temperature there is -53°C. There are places colder here on Earth than that that modern day vehicles can traverse on for longer, and yet this is supposed to be a futuristic exploration vehicle for deep space that's going to planets far further away from their suns than Earth is and thus far colder. The Mako on the other hand goes to a planet called Mavigon that drops to -124°C and has no issues at all.

From what we can see, the Hammerhead suffers no problems on very hot planets, given how close the thing can get to lava, making it on par with the Mako.

It's stated that its engines can be prone to overheating, especially if using them a lot (the whole limitation to boosting and jumping is based on heat in fact). If it was on an extremely hot world this would just make things worse, that's just science right there. There's nothing to protect them from the heat after all.

So that is one planet that we have for evidence on cold tolerance.  Hardly the best sample size.  Besides, do we know that it wasn't the atmosphere causing the engine freeze, instead of the temperature?  Wind chill is a b*tch.  As for the heat thing, it obviously does have protection, since it can not only land on those planets without incident (and remain indefinitely), it can operate with impunity around sources of extreme heat.

It's just as sealed, just as droppable (more so, even), just as suited to exploration as the Mako.  I fail to see how it doesn't work as advertised.

Despite the fact that it can't take a hit, can't take extreme temperatures, can't climb anything too step or traverse anything too rocky and has inferior weaponry.

It can outmaneuver pretty much any threat, can take extreme temperatures, hover and boost over or simply around steep or rocky terrain, and has appropriate weaponry for exploring and troop transport.  Since it is an exploratory IFV, this is to be expected.

The Hammerhead's speed is its strong point, and should be utilized in lieu of armor and in some cases firepower.  It makes much more sense for a recon vehicle to be fast and agile than slow and clunky.  Besides, what if there's anti-air defenses around and you need a fast way to get there?  Can't use the shuttle.  The Hammerhead is ideal for that as well, unlike the Mako.

But The Hammerhead isn't a recon vehicle, it's supposedly an exploration one. Exploration isn't about speed, it's about taking your time and examining the environment, and you have to be capable of dealing with the unknown out there. The Hammerhead's speed would also be considered reckless on most planets I would think. Its armaments are inferior in every sense, with slow-moving missiles that often miss and would take up more room than the mass cannon The Mako has that hits almost instantly, would have far more rounds that take up less room and does far more damage. Plus the mako has a machine gun as well.

Sure, once again one can point to speed and handling, but again this is an exploration vehicle. This isn't a race car. And that's basically what the comparison is like: The Hammerhead is like sending a formula one racing car to do the job of an armoured, all-terrain combat vehicle. It's not that The Hammerhead is a complete failure of a vehicle overall, it's that it's a complete failure of a vehicle for its purpose.

Recon is just exploration with a military theme.  The difference between the two is semantics.  Exploring at a faster pace is far preferable than a slower one, especially in a military setting, when you need information as fast as possible.  Even in a peaceful setting, it's not like the Hammerhead has only one speed.  It can slow down and take its time if the driver chooses to do so, while maintaining an impressive top speed for when there is nothing to see or to make a speedy getaway or blitz.  And at least the missiles try to home in on the enemy.  The Mako cannon, while impressive, still requires manual aiming.  Rarely will the Hammerhead missiles miss the enemy entirely.  They may not hit the enemy you aimed at, but more often than not, it will hit an enemy (unless you shot into the middle of nowhere).

Do note that the comparison is more like sending a fast scout vehicle to explore unknown, potentially enemy territory instead of a slow, heavily armored tank.  The scout vehicle is simply better suited to the task at hand.  Also note that the Hammerhead can scan for minerals without forcing the driver to get out and expose themselves to a poetenially hostile environment.  Something the Mako can't do.  Seems to me like the Hammerhead can do most things that the Mako can do, along with much that it cannot.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 06 avril 2011 - 05:58 .

[Terror_K]

Sorry, but if I want to invest my time and money into an IP seriously, I want it to at least remain consistent. Any IP is defined by what it is, and what it is is defined by the rules, limitations and boundaries it sets itself and how well it adheres to them more than anything else. It needs them to function properly and be taken seriously as a setting and universe, and if you're just going to mess with them constantly for the hell of it and make stupid, illogical decisions with the property then you may as well just kick everything aside and turn it into an episode of Family Guy on acid or something. Why doesn't Shepard just turn into Neo, teleport to all The Reapers and use something akin to Balefire to wipe them out of existence if we're just going to throw rules aside.

You may not give a rats ass as to what Mass Effect is beyond it being a fun game or two or three to play amongst many, but some of us got into this IP because we saw it as something more than that, and I don't want to see it getting dragged further through the mud for the sake of "the rule of cool" any more than it already has with ME2. Mass Effect could have been this generation's Star Trek or Star Wars, but the devs too recently have been willingly to throw away a lot of good work and a well-planned universe to the wayside with things like The Hammerhead.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Terror_K wrote...

You may not give a rats ass as to what Mass Effect is beyond it being a fun game or two or three to play amongst many, but some of us got into this IP because we saw it as something more than that,

Not to belabor the point, but you would have had to. Mass Effect 1 is bogged down in far too much annoyance to survive on gameplay alone.

and I don't want to see it getting dragged further through the mud for the sake of "the rule of cool" any more than it already has with ME2. Mass Effect could have been this generation's Star Trek or Star Wars, but the devs too recently have been willingly to throw away a lot of good work and a well-planned universe to the wayside with things like The Hammerhead.

I think the Hammerhead fits into the universe more readily than a goddamn moonbuggy, anyway. They have FLYING CARS. Why would you revert to using WHEELS for military operations when you have FLYING CARS?!

[Rurik_Niall]

Because Star Wars never did anything based on rule of cool, like swords made of light that only extend to a certain length rather than going on infinitely as light would in reality, or people being able to perform telekinesis, enhance their physical strength, speed, agility, and endurance, control the minds of others, or shoot lightning from their hands with their minds. And Star Trek has never been silly at all, what with Kirk losing his shirt and bedding a space chick every other episode, or aliens who use melee weapons in a setting with readily available phasers. Mass Effect has immense potential for its expanded universe, just like Star Wars, rule of cool or not.

[Pacifien]

Terror_K wrote...
If ME3 came along and without any explanation we suddenly had a companion who was a leprechaun with magical powers would you still be immersed as long as the gameplay with him was fun?

I don't equate a poorly designed vehicle mechanic to the introduction of a leprechaun with magical powers. That said, a wee little guy with strong biotic powers and a sniper rifle named Bianca might get a pass from me. I'm open to these things.

However, I am more likely to respect a particular setting if it develops and maintains a consistent canon within itself. It's just not the only thing that I require, else I'd be quite disappointed with several science fiction and fantasy settings I have read, seen, and played in.

[Terror_K]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I think the Hammerhead fits into the universe more readily than a goddamn moonbuggy, anyway. They have FLYING CARS. Why would you revert to using WHEELS for military operations when you have FLYING CARS?!

Yes... and most modern militaries have fighter jets and helicopters too. But *gasp* they still use tanks and other ground vehicles too!

[Akizora]

Pacifien wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
If ME3 came along and without any explanation we suddenly had a companion who was a leprechaun with magical powers would you still be immersed as long as the gameplay with him was fun?

I don't equate a poorly designed vehicle mechanic to the introduction of a leprechaun with magical powers. That said, a wee little guy with strong biotic powers and a sniper rifle named Bianca might get a pass from me. I'm open to these things.

Niftu Cal? A wee little guy with biotic powers, he is a biotic God! We know not what he knows in his head, that he is powerful -- like a God! Fear him!

[Nathan Redgrave]

Terror_K wrote...

Yes... and most modern militaries have fighter jets and helicopters too. But *gasp* they still use tanks and other ground vehicles too!

My point is that the Hammerhead is a ground vehicle, but utilizes the same level of technology as common transport! What a novel concept! Meanwhile, the Mako limits itself strictly to wheels for no apparent reason. And it's a drop-tank.

Wouldn't a semi-flying vehicle be more practical for even that task? Would have made landing on Ilos a helluvalot more practical, for starters.