Aller au contenu

Photo

Can BioWare please bring back...the Mako!!!


301 réponses à ce sujet

#176
Notanything

Notanything
  • Members
  • 211 messages

Akizora wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
If ME3 came along and without any explanation we suddenly had a companion who was a leprechaun with magical powers would you still be immersed as long as the gameplay with him was fun?

I don't equate a poorly designed vehicle mechanic to the introduction of a leprechaun with magical powers. That said, a wee little guy with strong biotic powers and a sniper rifle named Bianca might get a pass from me. I'm open to these things.


Niftu Cal? A wee little guy with biotic powers, he is a biotic God! We know not what he knows in his head, that he is powerful -- like a God! Fear him!


Oh boy, I wouldn't care how immersion breaking that is, even improbably.  Niftu Cal would be a welcome blundering biotic God to my squad any day.

#177
Terror_K

Terror_K
  • Members
  • 4 362 messages

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Because Star Wars never did anything based on rule of cool, like swords made of light that only extend to a certain length rather than going on infinitely as light would in reality, or people being able to perform telekinesis, enhance their physical strength, speed, agility, and endurance, control the minds of others, or shoot lightning from their hands with their minds. And Star Trek has never been silly at all, what with Kirk losing his shirt and bedding a space chick every other episode, or aliens who use melee weapons in a setting with readily available phasers. Mass Effect has immense potential for its expanded universe, just like Star Wars, rule of cool or not.


You miss the point entirely. It's about consistency and adhering to your own rules and boundaries that define the universe. The examples you gave don't work because these things were all established pretty much from the start. The Hammerhead is a massive brain-fart logic error given the circumstances. It's a vehicle touted as being superior, yet when you compare the two of them from a purely non-gameplay in-universe persective it's a massive step backwards in almost every way, and the universe has to design the situations and places for it in an extremely fake and gamey manner to try and convince you otherwise. Something isn't just superior because it claims to be.

#178
Nathan Redgrave

Nathan Redgrave
  • Members
  • 2 062 messages

Terror_K wrote...

You miss the point entirely. It's about consistency and adhering to your own rules and boundaries that define the universe.

 
Again, Terror, they have FLYING CARS.

The examples you gave don't work because these things were all established pretty much from the start. The Hammerhead is a massive brain-fart logic error given the circumstances. It's a vehicle touted as being superior, yet when you compare the two of them from a purely non-gameplay in-universe persective it's a massive step backwards in almost every way,

 
The military has finally reached the same level of technological advancement as the Citadel fast-transport service, and you consider this a step backwards?

#179
Terror_K

Terror_K
  • Members
  • 4 362 messages

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Yes... and most modern militaries have fighter jets and helicopters too. But *gasp* they still use tanks and other ground vehicles too!


My point is that the Hammerhead is a ground vehicle, but utilizes the same level of technology as common transport! What a novel concept! Meanwhile, the Mako limits itself strictly to wheels for no apparent reason. And it's a drop-tank.

Wouldn't a semi-flying vehicle be more practical for even that task? Would have made landing on Ilos a helluvalot more practical, for starters.


Not when the engines can't take the cold and when it has to sacrifice weaponry, shields and armour to do so, no. You're exploring the planet itself too, not what's just above it. The Hammerhead works in the make-believe worlds designed specifically for it, but wouldn't on the more realistic planets ME1 had. Anybody who thinks it could traverse the steeper, rockier mountains is fooling themselves. I actually wish somebody would either mod The Hammerhead into ME1 or mod some UNC worlds into ME2 to prove my point.

#180
Rurik_Niall

Rurik_Niall
  • Members
  • 887 messages
The Hammerhead is also a prototype, it's intended to be superior but hasn't been fully tested and implemented yet.

#181
Terror_K

Terror_K
  • Members
  • 4 362 messages

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

You miss the point entirely. It's about consistency and adhering to your own rules and boundaries that define the universe.

 
Again, Terror, they have FLYING CARS.

The examples you gave don't work because these things were all established pretty much from the start. The Hammerhead is a massive brain-fart logic error given the circumstances. It's a vehicle touted as being superior, yet when you compare the two of them from a purely non-gameplay in-universe persective it's a massive step backwards in almost every way,

 
The military has finally reached the same level of technological advancement as the Citadel fast-transport service, and you consider this a step backwards?


What is it with you and the "flying" aspect of The Hammerhead? There's more to it being a practical vehicle than "ZOMG! It can flyz!" you know. The X3M skycars are for personal transport, not for exploring dangerous worlds. Just because they can fly doesn't mean they're capable of taking on the hazards of exploring dangerous worlds, and the same goes for The Hammerhead.

#182
Nathan Redgrave

Nathan Redgrave
  • Members
  • 2 062 messages

Terror_K wrote...

Not when the engines can't take the cold and when it has to sacrifice weaponry, shields and armour to do so, no.

 
The weaponry is actually arguably better. The shields and armor is partly a gameplay issue. From a practical standpoint, sacrificing heavy armor for speed and manuverability is a very basic tactical decision.


You're exploring the planet itself too, not what's just above it. The Hammerhead works in the make-believe worlds designed specifically for it, but wouldn't on the more realistic planets ME1 had.


DON'T YOU TRY TO TELL ME THOSE PLANETS DIDN'T SUCK, BECAUSE THEY DID.

THANK YOU.

*deep breaths, Nathan, deep breaths... don't give in to the madness... Mass Effect 1's craptacular sidequests WILL NOT DEFEAT YOU, so deep breaths... count to ten... one... two... three... four... five... six... seven... eight... nine... ten... okay, I think I'm calm... sort of... maybe...* 

Anybody who thinks it could traverse the steeper, rockier mountains is fooling themselves. I actually wish somebody would either mod The Hammerhead into ME1 or mod some UNC worlds into ME2 to prove my point.


Frankly, I'm amazed the Mako could traverse as steep terrain as it could, but when every planet has the same gravity as the goddamn moon, I guess it's to be expected.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 avril 2011 - 06:23 .


#183
Nathan Redgrave

Nathan Redgrave
  • Members
  • 2 062 messages

Terror_K wrote...

What is it with you and the "flying" aspect of The Hammerhead?

 
They have FLYING CARS. That the military would utilize HOVERING TANKS instead of WHEELED TANKS shouldn't be such a goddamn stretch as you're making it out to be. The upshot is that you're trying to put the Mako on this "OH MY GOD SO MATURE AND LOGICAL" pedestal when they already have flying cars. You're projecting your cynicism on the Hammerhead, but the fault is yours for trying to dictate what the rules of the Mass Effect universe are, not Mass Effect's for going against your percieved ideas of how the world worked.

But hey, maybe the Mako is the Warrior class and the Hammerhead is the Rogue class, and we're both wrong. Either way, arguing the logic of a flying tank in a game that has flying cars is like arguing the existence of a really deep lake while swimming in the ocean.

#184
Terror_K

Terror_K
  • Members
  • 4 362 messages

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

They have FLYING CARS. That the military would utilize HOVERING TANKS instead of WHEELED TANKS shouldn't be such a goddamn stretch as you're making it out to be. The upshot is that you're trying to put the Mako on this "OH MY GOD SO MATURE AND LOGICAL" pedestal when they already have flying cars. You're projecting your cynicism on the Hammerhead, but the fault is yours for trying to dictate what the rules of the Mass Effect universe are, not Mass Effect's for going against your percieved ideas of how the world worked.

But hey, maybe the Mako is the Warrior class and the Hammerhead is the Rogue class, and we're both wrong. Either way, arguing the logic of a flying tank in a game that has flying cars is like arguing the existence of a really deep lake while swimming in the ocean.


Have you even read a word of what I've typed at all? Talk about missing the entire point! Seriously...

The fact that it flies isn't an issue. The fact that it is weaker both offensively and defensively, has engines that freeze up at temperatures that aren't even that low, that it can't rotate its turrent or climb steep angles and that it has impractical, backwards, inefficient armaments (slow missiles vs. insta-hit mass effect weapons) is. The Mako is basically a cross between an actual exploration rover and a military all-terrain vehicle, so it really is "space exploration meets military hardware" in every sense. The Hammerhead is just a gamey little arcade thing that's clearly designed for the game and not for the world its set in.

The problem isn't so much that it is, but what it is. If it were supposed to perform a different function than what it is, then fine... but it's not. It's the replacement vehicle that doesn't meet the standards. It's sending a formula one car to do the job of a tank. It's sending a cruise ship to be an aircraft carrier. It's sending a 747 to do the job of a stealth bomber. That's the problem. Not that it flies.

#185
Rurik_Niall

Rurik_Niall
  • Members
  • 887 messages
All of those problems you list are easily explained by the fact it's a prototype, not a production model. Despite the Super Prototype trope, prototypes are not always better than their mass produced counterparts. The finished product of the Hammerhead might well have improved shielding, armour, weapons, and engines, but the one we received was only being taken out for its first field test, it wasn't intended for combat, nor for exploring particularly dangerous planets.

#186
KotOREffecT

KotOREffecT
  • Members
  • 946 messages
Look at this..... A classic Mako Vs Hammerhead battle, without........ Mwa...... The biggest Mako Pwner of all teh timez?... You sure you want to do this?... Oh its on... Image IPB

Honestly, how many times do we have to go down this same barren planet road?.. The Mako? Come on now.. Everyone knows the only damn mission that tank daddy debo was good for was the awesome Ilos Run. What else really? Really most of the time your trying to drive/turn and aim at the same time, try to get the turret situated while having a Geth Colossus ramming it up Shepards blackhole. Really now, it was not that smooth, don't blame it on the terrain either...........DONT DO IT!...........Image IPB No really, sure the vehicle wasn't broken, but it def felt akward and clumsy at times, like you would just stop in slow motion while doing the flux chicken dance.

The Hammerhead on the other hand, all it really needs which has been stated many times is a better sheild system and more weapons and thats it, spot on vechile, a combo of the two. Mako's durability and Hammerheads smoothness. Not to mention fun, did I mention fun, isn't that what this is all about? How do you call roaming an empty wasteland that resembles the inside of sovreigns left nut fun?

Ok maybe hopping a few mountain hills here and there can be cool, but mostly its really a boring veichle. Where as atleast the HH is pure arcadish fun and exhilirating. Esp when you blast off a ledge into the air while shooting at enemies all in one swift motion. Lets face it, the Mako is old boring news and isn't coming back, it had its time and place, but thats it. Expect a completely new veichle or a revamped Hammerhead in ME 3.

#187
Terror_K

Terror_K
  • Members
  • 4 362 messages

Rurik_Niall wrote...

All of those problems you list are easily explained by the fact it's a prototype, not a production model. Despite the Super Prototype trope, prototypes are not always better than their mass produced counterparts. The finished product of the Hammerhead might well have improved shielding, armour, weapons, and engines, but the one we received was only being taken out for its first field test, it wasn't intended for combat, nor for exploring particularly dangerous planets.


Well, it's finally good to see a defense I can at least take seriously. What you say does make a certain amount of sense, but then I would have to wonder what The Hammerhead's intention as a vehicle actually was. If it's a prototype for another purpose then fine, but if it's a prototype for exploration meant as a replacement for The Mako then even the prototype excuse doesn't quite hold up. The missles vs. mass effect technology is the main one for me.

In either case, if we do see it again in ME3 (I'd prefer not, but...) then it better at least improve on all those areas. Give me some shielding, some decent armour and The Mako's weapons at the very least. Gameplay wise, I want a proper HUD and the ability to save in it and exit it when I want. And most of all, don't give me any more of these fake, gamey worlds that may as well have "Designed for The Hammerhead!" plastered all over them in big banners.

#188
Nathan Redgrave

Nathan Redgrave
  • Members
  • 2 062 messages

Terror_K wrote...

The fact that it flies isn't an issue.

 
Then shut up about the "rule of cool," because you make it sound like that's exactly why you hate it so much.

The fact that it is weaker both offensively and defensively, has engines that freeze up at temperatures that aren't even that low, that it can't rotate its turrent or climb steep angles and that it has impractical, backwards, inefficient armaments (slow missiles vs. insta-hit mass effect weapons) is. The Mako is basically a cross between an actual exploration rover and a military all-terrain vehicle, so it really is "space exploration meets military hardware" in every sense. The Hammerhead is just a gamey little arcade thing that's clearly designed for the game and not for the world its set in.


Weaker defensively? Debatable. It's less durable, but unquestionably better at not actually taking hits, assuming you know how to drive the damn thing. Rotating the turret is also a slightly moot point when the vehicle is capable of omni-directional movement anyway. At least the Hammerhead is capable of firing DOWNWARDS, which the Mako was not--and yes, that actually did present a disadvantage at times, given that it impaired your ability to fight from any position that was not either completely flat or inclined downward towards an enemy--a slight uphill incline renders you impotent.

The "insta-hit mass effect weapon" was good, yes, but trying to argue that a manually-aimed cannon is unquestionably superior to a homing missile is a bit silly. There's a strength, and there's a weakness. Most of the weakness in the homing missile was, again, more of a gameplay issue than a practical one (the idea works just fine; it's the goddamn gameplay design that screws it up, as with the armor). From an objective standpoint, a homing missile makes up for its lack of speed, and considering that the Hammerhead is built for moving swiftly and weaving around attacks rather than sitting in one place enduring attacks long enough to line up a shot, it's a weapon fitting the design of the vehicle.

The problem isn't so much that it is, but what it is. If it were supposed to perform a different function than what it is, then fine... but it's not. It's the replacement vehicle that doesn't meet the standards. It's sending a formula one car to do the job of a tank. It's sending a cruise ship to be an aircraft carrier. It's sending a 747 to do the job of a stealth bomber. That's the problem. Not that it flies.


Assuming that the Hammerhead was designed (from the standpoint of the Cerberus folks who designed it) to perform all of the same tasks as the Mako, you would be right. This is not a logical assumption, therefore your point fails.

#189
KotOREffecT

KotOREffecT
  • Members
  • 946 messages
TerrorK dont make me call in the calvarly! Skilled_Seeker/DarthCaine/etc... Dont make me do it!.... I'll do this thread up like its March of 2010 all over again! Image IPB

Burn Mako, Burn!

#190
Rurik_Niall

Rurik_Niall
  • Members
  • 887 messages
The missiles could well have been intended as a placeholder, if you're just taking it out for field tests to see how it handles you don't need a full armament, the message from Cerberus refers to it as "the Hammerhead planet-side exploration rover" the Mako on the other hand is referred to as an anti-infantry vehicle, in practice the two would fill roles as different as the Normandy and the Ascension. The Hammerhead is designed specifically for exploration and reconnaissance, it needs to be fast, maneuverable, and easy to pilot. The Mako is designed specifically for combat, it needs to be bulky and heavily armed.

#191
Brenon Holmes

Brenon Holmes
  • BioWare Employees
  • 483 messages
Keep the discussion civil, folks.

#192
Rekkampum

Rekkampum
  • Members
  • 2 048 messages

sympathy4saren wrote...

I loved exploring with it. Honestly, and this isn't a jab at anybody, but I never understood why some people had trouble using it. It was versatile and fun. Please bring it back, BioWare.


Low accuracy and low shielding are the Hammerhead's primary flaws. However, the Mako is far worse overall, if one considers how terribly it controls in comparison to the Hammerhead when you are traveling. Not to mention that it was also incredibly slow. I'm glad that contraption is gone.

#193
Fraevar

Fraevar
  • Members
  • 1 439 messages

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Keep the discussion civil, folks.


Oh, Brenon if you're reading this could you answer a question? Are you guys integrating vehicle sections into the story like in ME1 or will it be more of a side thing like the FireWalker pack or Overlord? (Don't know if you're allowed to answer this, but it's worth a shot :) ). I personally hope for the more cohesive approach - it doesn't really make sense for everything to be in walking distance, it keeps reminding me of the barriers of the level I'm currently in. The expansiveness you managed in ME1 really helped immersion.

#194
CannotCompute

CannotCompute
  • Members
  • 1 512 messages
^ Would be awesome if he answered that :)

#195
KotOREffecT

KotOREffecT
  • Members
  • 946 messages

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Keep the discussion civil, folks.


Oh, Brenon if you're reading this could you answer a question? Are you guys integrating vehicle sections into the story like in ME1 or will it be more of a side thing like the FireWalker pack or Overlord? (Don't know if you're allowed to answer this, but it's worth a shot :) ). I personally hope for the more cohesive approach - it doesn't really make sense for everything to be in walking distance, it keeps reminding me of the barriers of the level I'm currently in. The expansiveness you managed in ME1 really helped immersion.


Agreed, we need more Ilos.

#196
shotgun-shepard

shotgun-shepard
  • Members
  • 533 messages
This whole argument can be applied to the trilogy as a whole; a combination of ME1's immersion and narrative with ME2's combat: recipe for the perfect ME3.

So a combination of the Mako's durability with the Hammerhead's maneuverability and I'd be a happy bunny. They could do this by upgrading the Hammerhead with actual proper shields I guess.

Though I do like the idea of getting a choice between the 2 because personal preference is for the Mako- trying to get up a mountain felt so much more challenging than hopping up conveniently placed platforms and the weapons and sniping abilities were perfect for my 'easy-peasy' style of gameplay...

And I strongly agree that the real issue in 1 was the monotony of the Uncharted Worlds; we need to make them MORE varied; volcanic planets that actually spew lava on you, having to dodge geysers or trying to slide across ice patches on cold worlds. And maybe tone down the scale a little just so it doesn't take quite as long to explore, that is one of the best points about ME2's N7 missions; they felt like quick money when you were desperate to get an upgrade.

Image IPB

Image IPB
Long live the Mako; I wished I could take it with me when I found it as good as in tact!

#197
Guanxii

Guanxii
  • Members
  • 1 646 messages
Perhaps you might get to choose which type you like best between an upgraded Mako and an upgraded Hammerhead depending on who you are affiliated with.

#198
evmiller

evmiller
  • Members
  • 184 messages

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

What is it with you and the "flying" aspect of The Hammerhead?

 
They have FLYING CARS. That the military would utilize HOVERING TANKS instead of WHEELED TANKS shouldn't be such a goddamn stretch as you're making it out to be. The upshot is that you're trying to put the Mako on this "OH MY GOD SO MATURE AND LOGICAL" pedestal when they already have flying cars. You're projecting your cynicism on the Hammerhead, but the fault is yours for trying to dictate what the rules of the Mass Effect universe are, not Mass Effect's for going against your percieved ideas of how the world worked.

But hey, maybe the Mako is the Warrior class and the Hammerhead is the Rogue class, and we're both wrong. Either way, arguing the logic of a flying tank in a game that has flying cars is like arguing the existence of a really deep lake while swimming in the ocean.


You assume because the ME universe has the the tech for flying vehicles it should always be used no matter what. The Mako is what it is becasue the vehicle can be made cheaper, quieter, and more durable for what it does than a hovertank could. Think of the things we have the tech to do today, but don't see widley available becasue of cost and practicality. Even in the future, simpler is sometimes better.

Modifié par evmiller, 06 avril 2011 - 09:42 .


#199
Nathan Redgrave

Nathan Redgrave
  • Members
  • 2 062 messages

evmiller wrote...

Actually it's your logic that is faulty. You assume because the ME universe has the the tech for flying vehicles it should always be used no matter what. The Mako is what it is becasue the vehicle can be made cheaper, quieter, and more durable for what it does than a hovertank could. Think of the thinks we have the tech to do today, but don't see widley available becasue of cost and practicality.


My point was never that the Mako shouldn't exist, but that there's no reason to say that the Hammerhead should not exist. In the context of the universe, the Hammerhead makes more sense than the Mako because the concept for one is obviously more on-par with current technology than the other.

If this missed the point of that "rule of cool" argument, then the "rule of cool" argument is more about gameplay design than the actual vehicle, and thus should not be mixed with "what fits in with the universe" logic--kind of confuses the point. Gameplay and level design are a matter of how well-implemented an idea is, not how well the idea fits into the universe.

#200
Irrepressible

Irrepressible
  • Members
  • 135 messages

evmiller wrote...
You assume because the ME universe has the the tech for flying vehicles it should always be used no matter what. The Mako is what it is becasue the vehicle can be made cheaper, quieter, and more durable for what it does than a hovertank could. Think of the things we have the tech to do today, but don't see widley available becasue of cost and practicality. Even in the future, simpler is sometimes better.

The issue with that argument would be whom actually designed and built each vehicle. Yes, it would not make sense for the Alliance to use a hover vehicle, as a vehicle like the Mako could indeed be built cheaper and mass produced easier, something that would be vital to a military organisation.

The Hammerhead was built by Cerberus though, a well-funded private organisation, an organisation that you see throughout ME2 that are more than willing to throw credits at the most advanced, high-tech and ambitious projects. Is it really a far-cry for an organisation of that nature to come up with something akin to the Hammerhead? I'd say it's not, not at all.

Modifié par Irrepressible, 06 avril 2011 - 10:22 .