111 réponses à ce sujet

[JamieCOTC]

It was never cut out as it was never meant to be included. The voice actors record all dialogue whether it is used or not. It's easier to do it that way. Can't find the link, but it was confirmed that Ash & Kaidan were never meant to be romance for same gender. It was considered, but not implemented. The reason Tali seems to "come on" to femShep is because BW has Tali using the same "shy girl" dialogue as she does w/ manShep. Just BW being lazy w/ femShep, nothing really new about that.

[Influ]

@jamesp81
Your post is entirely based on your opinions. I understand your reasoning, but the same logic doesn't apply to everyone. There's already interspecies relationships in the game. A small statistical impropabilty wouldn't break my immersion any more than that. And statistics based on human society won't necessarily apply to other races anyway.

[jamesp81]

Nodscouter wrote...

''If Bioware wanted Tali to be bisexual, this should've been established in ME1''
If Bioware wanted Tali to be straight, this should've been established in ME1.
See how that works? You don't get clues either way, so don't say because there's no evidence that she's bisexual that it suddenly means she MUST, by all means, be straight. It's simply idiocy.

No, it's not idiocy, it's reality.  People are generally assumed to be heterosexual for a reason: almost all of them are.  Storytelling requires characters to be believable.  In absence of any other input, assuming Tali is heterosexual is reasonable.  If Bioware didn't want that, they should've made it clear earlier.  From a writing standpoint, it's much more difficult to make her bisexual in ME2 without there being some WTF head scratching.

Now, is there anything else I've said lately you'd like to use to paint me as a practitioner of idiocy?

[Nodscouter]

The fact that you ignore my arguments is a good one in my mind.
Once again, statistics does not prove anything. You can guess that she's heterosexual because of statistics, but it is, once again, not proof of anything, at all, no matter how much you try to make it so. It's reasonable to a point. You can't just assume everyone you meet is straight because most people are. Every now and then you're going to be wrong.
And once again, she never mentions her sexuality. Why would I be confused if she was bisexual? Because, once again, most people are straight?
And you're trying to say Tali wouldn't be a believeable character if she was bi, simply because, once more, most people are straight?

I find it rather easy to paint someone a practitioner of idiocy, when they are.

[jamesp81]

Nodscouter wrote...

The fact that you ignore my arguments is a good one in my mind.
Once again, statistics does not prove anything. You can guess that she's heterosexual because of statistics, but it is, once again, not proof of anything, at all, no matter how much you try to make it so. It's reasonable to a point. You can't just assume everyone you meet is straight because most people are. Every now and then you're going to be wrong.
And once again, she never mentions her sexuality. Why would I be confused if she was bisexual? Because, once again, most people are straight?
And you're trying to say Tali wouldn't be a believeable character if she was bi, simply because, once more, most people are straight?

I find it rather easy to paint someone a practitioner of idiocy, when they are.

Tali would be believable as a bisexual character if it was established early.  Not at this late time.

As for being a practitioner of idiocy, feel free to prove it with hard evidence.  If you can't, then feel free to keep it to yourself.

Modifié par jamesp81, 04 avril 2011 - 05:14 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Tali would be believable as a bisexual character if it was established early.

But attraction to members of a different species is fine?

[jamesp81]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Tali would be believable as a bisexual character if it was established early.

But attraction to members of a different species is fine?

From the standpoint of a writer, yes.  Remember, the audience is 100% human and thinks in 100% human terms.  Of course she's attracted to the player character.  That would be true no matter what race the player character was.

[CyanideFunk]

Nodscouter wrote...

The fact that you ignore my arguments is a good one in my mind.
Once again, statistics does not prove anything. You can guess that she's heterosexual because of statistics, but it is, once again, not proof of anything, at all, no matter how much you try to make it so. It's reasonable to a point. You can't just assume everyone you meet is straight because most people are. Every now and then you're going to be wrong.
And once again, she never mentions her sexuality. Why would I be confused if she was bisexual? Because, once again, most people are straight?
And you're trying to say Tali wouldn't be a believeable character if she was bi, simply because, once more, most people are straight?

I find it rather easy to paint someone a practitioner of idiocy, when they are.

What Jamesp81 is getting at, mate, is that in the ME universe, Tali has never hinted at being attracted to FemShep. Yes, she didn't mention anything about being attracted to anyone in ME1, but in ME2, she only goes for ManShep. If BioWare were intending for her to be a bisexual character, they would have already done so.

What we DON'T want to see is Tali SUDDENLY turning bisexual in ME3 when she's previously made absolutely no hint at it in game. The same goes for all the romance options from ME2 and ME1.

Now that is not to say I am not game for new romance options in ME3. By all means, introduce new bisexual or only homosexual characters. Just do NOT change around the formula of already existing characters.

Modifié par CyanideFunk, 04 avril 2011 - 05:59 .

[Influ]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Tali would be believable as a bisexual character if it was established early.

But attraction to members of a different species is fine?

From the standpoint of a writer, yes. Remember, the audience is 100% human and thinks in 100% human terms. Of course she's attracted to the player character. That would be true no matter what race the player character was.

First of all, 100% of that human audience doesn't share your views of what would be a believable character. Second, writers should never underestimate their audience. With that mentality they clearly would.

@CyanideFunk
Actually this discussion has nothing to do with ME3. Only if it would have been appropriate for Tali to be non-heterosexual in ME2 considering her character in ME1.

Modifié par Influ, 04 avril 2011 - 06:33 .

[Nodscouter]

Yes, Cyanide, believe it or not, but I'm not one saying that every romance should be bi or even that the old romances should be converted into bisexuals. Right now, we're assuming we've only played ME1.

jamesp81 wrote...

Nodscouter wrote...

The fact that you ignore my arguments is a good one in my mind.
Once again, statistics does not prove anything. You can guess that she's heterosexual because of statistics, but it is, once again, not proof of anything, at all, no matter how much you try to make it so. It's reasonable to a point. You can't just assume everyone you meet is straight because most people are. Every now and then you're going to be wrong.
And once again, she never mentions her sexuality. Why would I be confused if she was bisexual? Because, once again, most people are straight?
And you're trying to say Tali wouldn't be a believeable character if she was bi, simply because, once more, most people are straight?

I find it rather easy to paint someone a practitioner of idiocy, when they are.

Tali would be believable as a bisexual character if it was established early.  Not at this late time.

As for being a practitioner of idiocy, feel free to prove it with hard evidence.  If you can't, then feel free to keep it to yourself.

This whole argument is damn hard evidence. And now, you've finally decided to stop debating some of my points, and stick to one that's irrelevant to the argument. Yes, Tali is not bisexual, that was proven in ME2 and is besides the point.
And what do you consider ''believable'' as a bisexual character? Do they have to act stereotypically bisexual? Do they have to run around the place screaming that they are bi? What the hell do you mean?

[Ryzaki]

God I wish Tali wasn't a romance period.
"Oh sex could kill me but I wanna do it anyways!!!!" 

Bleh. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

God I wish Tali wasn't a romance period.
"Oh sex could kill me but I wanna do it anyways!!!!" 

Bleh. 

If you have nothing to add to the discussion then leave the thread.

[jeweledleah]

any one of the characters could have been made bisexual. sexuality has very little to do with personality, appearance, or behavior unless a specific person chooses to wear their specific sexuality on their sleeve.

however.

At this point sexualities have been established and in order to make a believable transition to bisexuality, writers would have to do some serious tap dancing in a manner of speaking. especially when it comes to ME1 LI's, who exhibited attraction to opposite gender Shepard outside of one on one conversations, and did no such thing to same gender Shepard, sue to polarizing way the romances were written (starting with Eden prime). a lot extra dialogue would have to be written, a lot of variables have to be taken into account. and then of course there's a matter of all characters, but Liara being possibly dead. it can be done, yes, but it may just be more trouble then its worth to write well.

what's done is done. If I can accept the terrible writing that was Horizon, if I can manage to live with all the hatred it inspired for my favorite characters, you can manage to live with established characters not being bisexual.

P.S.  Ryzaki has a good point.  you are having a dangerous encounter, geopardzing the performance of your team member 2 hours away from the point of no return mission.  I have the same issue with Garrus and Thane romance, as much as I adore Garrus.  if they had done it a week prior or something of that nature, you know to give each other time to get back into top shape, in case side effects happen - yeah, sure. 

Modifié par jeweledleah, 04 avril 2011 - 08:05 .

[Nodscouter]

Yes, at this point they have been established and should not be changed. That is completely irrelevant to our discussion.

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

God I wish Tali wasn't a romance period.
"Oh sex could kill me but I wanna do it anyways!!!!" 

Bleh. 

If you have nothing to add to the discussion then leave the thread.

And that is adding to the discussion?  

Ontopic: It shouldn't have been cut out. If Tali can fallfor a male Shepard a female Shepard isn't out of the conversation. Shepard and she aren't even the same species. It boggles the mind that she can get past a species barrier but not a gender one. 

Either way having sex with Shepard is hazardous to her health. So unless Tali's revealed to have a male human fetish it was about her falling in love with Shepard. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[Quole]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quole wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

God I wish Tali wasn't a romance period.
"Oh sex could kill me but I wanna do it anyways!!!!" 

Bleh. 

If you have nothing to add to the discussion then leave the thread.

And that is adding to the discussion?  

Ontopic: It shouldn't have been cut out. If Tali can fallfor a male Shepard a female Shepard isn't out of the conversation. Shepard and she aren't even the same species. It boggles the mind that she can get past a species barrier but not a gender one. 

Either way having sex with Shepard is hazardous to her health. So unless Tali's revealed to have a male human fetish it was about her falling in love with Shepard. 

If it means getting rid of a potential troll then yes.

Modifié par Quole, 04 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[Ryzaki]

Quole wrote...
If it means getting rid of a potential troll then yes.

So...instead of letting me post thecomment and leave. You instead respond. 

Wouldn't that be the very definition of "feeding" a troll? 

You didn't exactly think that through did you? 

[Nodscouter]

No, no he really didn't.
And to answer your post, we don't know how similar Quarians and Humans are, so it doesn't have to be that odd.

[rudenotginger]

Kaltrec wrote...

You're thinking too hard about it, it's not like FemShep and MaleShep are not part of the same universe anyway. The LI would be interested in the gender your character is at the moment you play. With the exception of Jack, there is no mention of any preferences from the other characters.

I agree with this. If you play FemShep and decide to romance Tali for example, for all we know Shepard and Tali could be lesbian, not bi. In any case, I really couldn't care less about the characters' sexual orientation. Only Jack states hers, and FemShep in ME if you choose the "I like men" dialogue option. So no, I don't think allowing same-sex romances in ME2 would have been "retconing", neither would it be in ME3. I personally have no interest in same-sex romances, but I think that if some people want them, they should be able to have them. Why do some people get upset about what other people do with their own Shepards, I wonder? If someone wants their Shepard to be gay/lesbian/bisexual, what's it to you?

[theradicalpunk]

I have to agree with Ryzaki on this one. If Tali had 'relations,' with Shepard on any level I'd think she'd be risking life.

Being exposed to any atmosphere makes a Quarian sick for weeks even when their swimming in anti-biotics.

Now expose Tali to a human who's contracted and adapted to every known disease to man and whose immune system is pumping a mile minute to a Quarian's and that equals one life threatening romp... or snog even.

I think the player base who even wanted Tali as a "bisexual,' or even "lesbian," love interest wants to fulfill some fanship fantasy.

The creators are coping out to the player base because as Ryzaki said, how can she get past a gender barrier let alone a race barrier is mind boggling. If you did Tali's loyalty mission it even stated it would take them roughly (give or take) 60 years to acclimate to their homeworld's environment.

Wth does anyone find it feasible for her to be a muffin diver, pole smoker, or flap jacker to begin with? The act of letting someone stick their tongue down her throat is cause enough to believe she has suicidal tendencies.

She took antibiotics to up her immune system? Cop-out. Sorry the most you get out of this LI is a hand holding. You really want to get affectionate link suits.

Until they fix this aggrieves error all you're fantasies of any sexuality belong in the garbage.

Modifié par theradicalpunk, 05 avril 2011 - 01:14 .

[emmanuelsieyes]

FWIW, the in-game explanation she gives is that her body is actually having an allergic reaction to foreign amino acids. Why they would use antibiotics rather than antihistimines is beyond me. The foreign bacteria cause problems because they are made from incompatible amino acids. So by this logic, using immunosuppressants and antihistimines should protect against 'problems'.

Also, I'm familiar with the terms muffin diver and pole smoker, but what exactly is a flap jacker?

[GuardianAngel470]

xzxzxz701 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Because not everyone MUST be bisexual.

And not everyone must be straight.

And not everyone must be gay at all.

There, I've taken this to its logical conclusion.

[GuardianAngel470]

theradicalpunk wrote...

I have to agree with Ryzaki on this one. If Tali had 'relations,' with Shepard on any level I'd think she'd be risking life.

Being exposed to any atmosphere makes a Quarian sick for weeks even when their swimming in anti-biotics.

Now expose Tali to a human who's contracted and adapted to every known disease to man and whose immune system is pumping a mile minute to a Quarian's and that equals one life threatening romp... or snog even.

I think the player base who even wanted Tali as a "bisexual,' or even "lesbian," love interest wants to fulfill some fanship fantasy.

The creators are coping out to the player base because as Ryzaki said, how can she get past a gender barrier let alone a race barrier is mind boggling. If you did Tali's loyalty mission it even stated it would take them roughly (give or take) 60 years to acclimate to their homeworld's environment.

Wth does anyone find it feasible for her to be a muffin diver, pole smoker, or flap jacker to begin with? The act of letting someone stick their tongue down her throat is cause enough to believe she has suicidal tendencies.

She took antibiotics to up her immune system? Cop-out. Sorry the most you get out of this LI is a hand holding. You really want to get affectionate link suits.

Until they fix this aggrieves error all you're fantasies of any sexuality belong in the garbage.

Medi-gel. Omni-gel. Mass Effect technology.

Obviously all cop outs.

[Inspectre]

Kronner wrote...

Because not everyone MUST be bisexual.

You sir, are as badass as your avatar suggests.

xzxzxz701 wrote...

And not everyone must be straight.

It is the significantly more common of the two.

Modifié par Dragon XIX, 05 avril 2011 - 10:18 .

[expanding panic]

Make a male shep. Problem solved.