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Tali + Female Shepard Romance: Thanks for Cutting it out Bioware!!!!! >:-(


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#101
jamesp81

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

lolfanboi wrote...

If it isn't implied that they are gay, then it is assumed that they are straight. Life works that way.


Problem with that is Tali wasn't "implied" to be straight either. Nothing about Tali's sexuality is mentioned in the first game. So playing that card doesn't fly. :huh:


You didn't read his post well.

If it isn't implied that they are gay, then it is assumed they are straight.

Those bolded words have important meanings.  In other words, if no implication to Tali's sexual preferences are made at all, the assumption is going to be that she's straight.

#102
jamesp81

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android654 wrote...

@Seboist, I'm pretty sure its only implied from her personal dialogue. I haven't seen any stripped content with Jack in it at all.

jeweledleah wrote...

maybe they stripped it because they couldn't figure out how to implement thane/maleshep well given Thane's backstory and the trigger for starting romance (you can initiate it after he tells you about his wife...which barely works for me when it comes to femshep hitting on him, its definitely not a good opening for a guy to hit on him, I would think) and decided that another bi LI that's for female characters only, while there's STILL no male/male relationship would be unfair, so they stripped both?  edited to add - it would be just as challenging to write Garrus and Jacob as they both tell you about experiences with women, so you'd have to figure out how to create an opening for romantic beginning that doesn't seem out of place

just a thought. sometimes content gets removed not because people are homophobic, or hypocritical, sometimes it gets removed due to time and budget constraints. there are 6 romances and 11 squadmates on release. have you noticed how much ambient dialog they have everywhere?


When Bioware was pressed about no M/M relationships they simply said that "Sheppard's not gay." Why not simply say, "We couldn't find a good way to tie in Thane and Malesheppard due to the back story we had for Thane. We tried to work around it by adding elements to his personal story, and omitting a few things that weren't essential to the character. Unfortunately we didn't meet the deadline by the time we began recording. So with that in mind, we decided to strip it, for the betterment of the character and the overall interaction between him and the player."

If it was omitted because it compromised the integrity of the project, why not say something like that, instead of Just saying Sheppard isn't gay?


I'm gonna say something here that's going to ****** off a LOT of people, but is also the absolute truth.

People in general are more accepting of female homosexuality and bisexuality than of male homosexuality and bisexuality.  I'm sure a psychologist could give us some lengthy psycho-babble explanation as to why that is the case, but you all know it to be true.

#103
expanding panic

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Bamboozalist wrote...

expanding panic wrote...
That doesn't necessarily mean that it was for Fem Shep. Maybe she likes Jacob or Zaeed or joker. Doesn't mean she likes Fem Shep. Just stating the obvious. Not saying your wrong Just saying its not definitive proof that she is Bi or whatever.


That's really, really unlikely though since all her dialouge towards Shepard even as a femshep is about her doing what she does for Shepard and what not, also her and Jacob aren't exactly, well yeah...Cerberus and all that.

Ill be honest with you I haven't created a Female Shep yet, and Tali is probably one of my least favorite characters or bottom middle. But if Bioware decided to make her straight half way through the game and didnt want to re-write her dialog then thats their choice

    -Installed suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro
    -Uninstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro
    -Reinstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro
    -Uninstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro
    -Reinstalled suit application, Nerve-Stim Pro:Deluxe Edition

Tali is such a naughty girl...



#104
Guest_mrsph_*

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Sad, but true.

We would never see the wailing and gnashing of teeth with Tali as we see with characters like Zevran and Anders That's how the double standard works.

Modifié par mrsph, 06 avril 2011 - 10:11 .


#105
Kappa Neko

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jeweledleah wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Garrus tells you about his experience with FEMALE scout. they would have to rewrite that entire story, probably changing it so that he never uses gender pronoun...at a minimum. of course that also makes it interesting in terms of translating to other languages, since unlike English, in a lot of languages verbs also denote gender. OR... they would have to figure out a different opening for maleshep, to start the romance.


And? When you're deal with humans that makes sense but when you're dealing alien races, cross species gender starts to not matter especailly with Tali and Garrus since any real physical relationship isn't exactly really feesible with the two of them.

and....the way they set up an opening for Tali wasn't gender specific.  She tells you that linking suits can be both gesture of trust (like her mother and aunt)  and intimacy and that she never trusted another quarian that much, but she trusts Shepard.  its not gender specific and its vague enough that they dind't have to rewrite it in any way.  it was open ended enough to work the same way as Liara worked.

Garrus's romance opening was as much as you'd like to deny it - gender specific  it seems that when it comes to Turians, sex is very similar for them to the way humans see it. can be done as recreational activity and is done between oposite genders at least some of the time.  so.  in order to make that opening feasible for a male shepard as well as female shepard, they would have to write it differently, becasue the way they wrote it as it exists right now - straight turian males just fight to release stress and males/females may fight...or they may go ahead and have sex in adition (or instead).  I'm not saying that gay turians don't exist, but I am saying that current romantic opening doesn't work so well for a male Shepard.  you can say that developers wrote themselves into a corner with that one. 

was the opportunity there? concidering how much Garrus trusts and respects shepard and concidering that its interspecies relationship - yes, opportunity was there, just as it was for Tali.  I'm not entirely sure how they could have written it, and maybe that's part of the problem?   Maybe if they had written that scout story to show that Turians basicaly fight (or have sex with) each other more or less indiscriminately of gender?  maybe if they wrote a wholy different story and a completely different opening?  who knows.


Not sure I get your point.
Just because they are talking about stress relief with a Turian of the opposite sex, doesn’t mean Garrus would only consider femShep as a partner. She’s not a Turian, so regular gender roles don’t apply.
Yes, I agree that it would come across kind of strange to connect a conversation about sex with a female Turian to gay flirtation with a male Shepard. So I do get your point, I guess. But as has been said several times, Garrus is attracted to Shepard specifically, as is Tali.
So they could just have added a couple of lines to modify the existing conversation to a male romance IMO.

All of the alien romances make sense for both sexes, since normal gender roles do not apply. What is “male” or “female” to a Turian or a Quarian? The aliens are very humanized, so the players can relate to them better. That’s why Garrus or Tali have character traits that come across as male and female. But actually, an alien should not have any understanding of what’s female or male behaviour in a human. So they shouldn’t be turned off by it. This is why the alien LIs are only attracted to Shepard’s personality.

I really don’t understand why BW is denying the players gay romances (if you want to call an alien romance that), but chose to meet fan base demands for freedom when it comes to romancing in DA2.
Does this have something to do with outcries about how the male Shepard cannot be gay because that would ruin the character? I imagine that adolescent crowd would say the same stupid thing about Hawke, so I still don’t get it. But apparently BW thinks a gay Shepard would seriously offend a large portion of potential buyers, while such concerns must have been less strong when it comes to DA. Otherwise I can’t explain it.
Tali, Garrus and Thane as romance options for both sexes would have made a lot of sense to me. Since they are aliens and therefore not gay in the actual sense of the word, it wouldn’t even have been unrealistic to have so many bisexual characters, the way some people complain about now on the DA2 boards.
Well, now it’s too late. I’d rather the characters keep their sexual orientations for ME3.

 Btw, yes, I was surprised there was no Jack romance for femShep, too. As has been pointed out, Jack says herself she’s bisexual!
The ME team needs to get themselves some stem cells from the Dragon Age developers and grow a spine!!

Modifié par Kappa Neko, 06 avril 2011 - 11:17 .


#106
PrinceLionheart

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jamesp81 wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

lolfanboi wrote...

If it isn't implied that they are gay, then it is assumed that they are straight. Life works that way.


Problem with that is Tali wasn't "implied" to be straight either. Nothing about Tali's sexuality is mentioned in the first game. So playing that card doesn't fly. :huh:


You didn't read his post well.

If it isn't implied that they are gay, then it is assumed they are straight.

Those bolded words have important meanings.  In other words, if no implication to Tali's sexual preferences are made at all, the assumption is going to be that she's straight.


Which again, there was no mention at all of Tali's preference in the first game. All she talked about was the flotilla. Tali being Bisexual in the second game wouldn't have "gone against her character."

#107
PrinceLionheart

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jamesp81 wrote...

android654 wrote...

@Seboist, I'm pretty sure its only implied from her personal dialogue. I haven't seen any stripped content with Jack in it at all.

jeweledleah wrote...

maybe they stripped it because they couldn't figure out how to implement thane/maleshep well given Thane's backstory and the trigger for starting romance (you can initiate it after he tells you about his wife...which barely works for me when it comes to femshep hitting on him, its definitely not a good opening for a guy to hit on him, I would think) and decided that another bi LI that's for female characters only, while there's STILL no male/male relationship would be unfair, so they stripped both?  edited to add - it would be just as challenging to write Garrus and Jacob as they both tell you about experiences with women, so you'd have to figure out how to create an opening for romantic beginning that doesn't seem out of place

just a thought. sometimes content gets removed not because people are homophobic, or hypocritical, sometimes it gets removed due to time and budget constraints. there are 6 romances and 11 squadmates on release. have you noticed how much ambient dialog they have everywhere?


When Bioware was pressed about no M/M relationships they simply said that "Sheppard's not gay." Why not simply say, "We couldn't find a good way to tie in Thane and Malesheppard due to the back story we had for Thane. We tried to work around it by adding elements to his personal story, and omitting a few things that weren't essential to the character. Unfortunately we didn't meet the deadline by the time we began recording. So with that in mind, we decided to strip it, for the betterment of the character and the overall interaction between him and the player."

If it was omitted because it compromised the integrity of the project, why not say something like that, instead of Just saying Sheppard isn't gay?


I'm gonna say something here that's going to ****** off a LOT of people, but is also the absolute truth.

People in general are more accepting of female homosexuality and bisexuality than of male homosexuality and bisexuality.  I'm sure a psychologist could give us some lengthy psycho-babble explanation as to why that is the case, but you all know it to be true.


Well yeah, girl-on-girl is hot but guy-on-guy is "gay." :whistle:

#108
android654

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I'm gonna say something here that's going to ****** off a LOT of people, but is also the absolute truth.

People in general are more accepting of female homosexuality and bisexuality than of male homosexuality and bisexuality.  I'm sure a psychologist could give us some lengthy psycho-babble explanation as to why that is the case, but you all know it to be true.


Well yeah, girl-on-girl is hot but guy-on-guy is "gay." :whistle:


I was going to say the same thing.

Subjection =/= acceptance.

The concept of girl on girl in society is based almost entirely on subjection, not acceptance. If guys didn't find it sexy it'd be just as "accepted" as gay men. But that aside, it doesn't mean the content shouldn't exist.

#109
Hyper Cutter

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android654 wrote...

Its more about the hypocrisy to me. They create the content and then strip it before they publish it, it makes their "explanations" seem rather suspicious.

You realize that unfinished content scrapped at various points in development ends up left in game data all the time, right.

ME2 has TONS of leftover stuff like that, without even taking into account things like Legion dialog in places it's impossible to have him...

mrsph wrote...

Sad, but true.

We would never see
the wailing and gnashing of teeth with Tali as we see with characters
like Zevran and Anders That's how the double standard works.

Anders
deserves it. I don't know what idiot thought making a male character
hit on a male PC was a good idea, and the reaction was pretty much
exactly what you'd expect.

#110
android654

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Hyper Cutter wrote...

android654 wrote...

Its more about the hypocrisy to me. They create the content and then strip it before they publish it, it makes their "explanations" seem rather suspicious.

You realize that unfinished content scrapped at various points in development ends up left in game data all the time, right.

ME2 has TONS of leftover stuff like that, without even taking into account things like Legion dialog in places it's impossible to have him...


Yeah, I do get that. If you didn't take my comment out of context, as the statement was directed to the one above, you'll know it referes soley to this content and Bioware's excuse of Sheppard not being gay. They gave no excuses for legion's missing dialogue, since it doesn't have anything to do with character development or story progression.

To those bringing up Garrus on his cadet days story, I have a question. When you're flirting with someone about your past, do you honestly list every single person you've ever f*cked all at once? He mentions one person from all of the years he's been alive and that's suppose to sum up his entire sexual history? Either Garrus has only been with one person, or sexual involvement is a little more detailed than a single story.

Modifié par android654, 07 avril 2011 - 04:48 .


#111
Cpt Filou

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What is this crap discution about all being bi.

It would be true regarding replaying the game 10 timnes, but every times only one get ****** and only one get in love with you.

We are speakinh potential here. So why not all caracter with the potential for it?

When I ******-date, let say liara, then all the other are not ****** anymore since the opportunity is gone.

So yes, it would be great to have all the love stories possible since it pleases the actual player for a given game.

Modifié par Cpt Filou, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:54 .


#112
treantwuver

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I too am disappointed by this, I feel like their is just a lack of love for femshep here. We even get teased by Tali that she wouldn't mind linking suits with you and allowing you to say something like ''I'd like that'' then Tali sounds all flustered and shy. Hell, even on her loyalty mission after the hearing, you ask her if everything is alright and she replies that doesn't need anyone because she has you.

I don't think it's so much she's into ladies, but more that she's into Shepard, if you guys get what I mean. Also, some of you say that it would be strange to have a character suddenly go from straight to bi but look at what they did with Kaiden in ME3.

Anyways, just my honest opinion and something I really wished BW went for. Not going crazy for it but I would've loved it if it was implemented.