83 réponses à ce sujet

[Kilshrek]

Yes! And before anyone sneers or thinks that DA 2 is too good to learn a few things from Fable 3, I'll point out the utter lack of impact player choice has in the game, and cutscene deaths. I think cutscene deaths should be enough to end any attempt to argue with my points, but you never know.

My point is that as the Champion of Kirkwall, I felt pretty helpless as a person. I couldn't save my sibling, twice if you make the 'wrong' choices in the Deep Roads. Couldn't save my own mother, couldn't save a scared woman from a mad mage, couldn't save a poor young girl from slavers and demons, the list does go ever on. For all the good points of the game and the story, taking me out of the equation when it comes to these points in order to force certain parts of the story down my throat really annoyed me. I get it by the bajillionth time a mage goes bonkers. The story wants to tell me that 9 out of 10 mages will do anything to get power and lord it over the lesser beings, just as Fenris tirelessly says. Save a blood mage? They hate you later and turn on you. Save the first enchanter? He goes mad and turns into a giant monster. Try to save your mother? Too bad you can't do that. Try to save a scared wife? Too bad you can't do that too. And the list goes on again.

Where something can be learned from Fable 3, is if the game really does demand a death, if the story demands someone that die, at least give us some choice. The first 5 minutes of Fable has you making one such choice. It was infinitely more difficult than any choice I had to face in DA 2, simply because no matter what I chose, someone would die. But I had a choice.

In DA 3, let my choices have meaning. Ostracise my PC if I'm a blood mage. Power like that should come at a price, have random encounters where "good" apostates try to hunt you down, have dialogue that reflects such things. Let me save my own mother! Give me my choice! DA 2 was good, but it was always someone else's story. It wasn't the story of my Hawke because my Hawke would have burned half of Kirkwall to find my mother and bring her back safely. I would have slapped Orsino silly before he decided to become Harvestino.(Paragon interrupt?!). My Hawke would also have made some attempt to socialise with my surviving sibling beyond receiving one letter in 6 years. And I would have tried to look for that scary lady Sandal was talking about.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 03 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[varcety]

If comparing to other RPGs, I think Bioware should learn from Vampire: The Masquarade Bloodlines.
I remember how, being a deformed Nosferatu, you couldn't walk(to avoid breaking the masquarade) on the surface and had to spend most of your time in the sewers(or in shadows of the street). Or how the Malkavain PC had unique dialogue options. And so on.
In DA2 being an apostate mage PC has no consequences at all. Nothing. It completely ruins the atmosphere(for me atleast).

Modifié par varcety, 03 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[Kilshrek]

There's that as well. But I think to implement something like the Nosferatu consequence would require a parallel game be developed in DA 2 terms, one where you're an apostate and one where you're not. The way DA 2 handled apostate Hawke was obviously more than a little disappointing, especially with Blood Magic.

But to have more consequences for being an apostate surely isn't an unreasonable thing. Bethany had to go to the Circle because she finally gave up running from the Templars. Mage Hawke can flaunt magic in public with absolutely no consequence. Merchant has a magical son? Don't worry my good man, I'm an apostate too*display magical power*. In the middle of a bazaar. *facepalm*

[Lithuasil]

varcety wrote...

If comparing to other RPGs, I think Bioware should learn from Vampire: The Masquarade Bloodlines.
I remember how, being a deformed Nosferatu, you couldn't walk(to avoid braking the masquarade) on the surface and had to spend most of your time in the sewers(or in shadows of the street). Or how the Malkavain PC had unique dialogue options. And so on.
In DA2 being an apostate mage PC has no consequences at all. Nothing. It completely ruins the atmosphere(for me atleast).

Actually - this. One of the things that *any* game should learn from Bloodlines 

[varcety]

Double post.

Modifié par varcety, 03 avril 2011 - 02:16 .

[ThePasserby]

I remember while playing Fallout 2, I asked myself, "Hmm ... since the number of available conversation options depends on Intelligence, what would happen if I were to lower my character's Int to 1?" And I got a really pleasant surprise when I played a completely different game with this mentally-challenged character. The writers actuallty wrote different lines for the NPCs when they spoke to my imbecilic character. Different quests became available, while similar quests had different ways of achieving the objective. Even your village elder sighed at the hopelessness of the cause.

Those days when they made games like this are gone, and sadly, never coming back.

[Volourn]

Fable series sucks! DEATH TO FABLE!!!

[CoolCR]

I think DA2 could learn alot from DA:O never mind the awsome ness of Bloodlines.

I did like if you die in the fade your conection to it will be for ever broken unless your merril and in that case you will be fine. wtf at least follow things up.

And is it me or are mages compleatly different in the game compaired with the last one everyone is now a blood mage the skills for blood mages arent even that good.

Have a magic fight infront of the knight captain and he says nothing about it face palm no wonder there are so many blood mages.

The maps repeat and the mobs and the story again and again and again.

Could you imgine listening to Varecs storry well we walked down to the docks at night and kill like 40 people and then went to high town at night and killed like 40 people and then we bought some epq, then nothing happend for 3 years and then.... wtf he only ever embelishes like twice so that mechanic doesnt really come in as a good or a bad thing.

Hawk would have been ruling the city but no he just sits on his hands for 3 years wating for the situation to brake very heroic.

But i guess from one point your play cannot ever change the story as its happend in the past and is just being retold and thats why its so static and they want everyone to be at something like the same place for DA3.

I really (more fool me right) thought at one point i was going to get to take over the city and help the Prince take back his home sigh so much for choices three diolog buttons but only two chioces and neither makes a difference.

Wow ranting radomly on forums really does make me feel better.:innocent:

Modifié par CoolCR, 03 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[The Angry One]

varcety wrote...

If comparing to other RPGs, I think Bioware should learn from Vampire: The Masquarade Bloodlines.
I remember how, being a deformed Nosferatu, you couldn't walk(to avoid breaking the masquarade) on the surface and had to spend most of your time in the sewers(or in shadows of the street). Or how the Malkavain PC had unique dialogue options. And so on.
In DA2 being an apostate mage PC has no consequences at all. Nothing. It completely ruins the atmosphere(for me atleast).

Plus, as any other vampire (Toreador ftw), run around spamming powers in front of witnesses like an idiot and you break the Masquerade, get the cops on you and eventually vampire hunters and Masquerade agents (or whatever the organisation was called, I forget) to put you down.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 02:31 .

[Andronic0s]

Agreed with all the points, though Bioware already implemented all of those for earlier games, it seems they just "Forgot" for DA2 like they forgot people hated the recycled environments in Mass Effect 1

[ThePasserby]

And in Bloodlines, you'll run into someone you knew as a mortal. She'd pester you about it and if you acknowledge it, You'd break the Masquerade and be waylaid by vampire hunters later in the game. I like the Malkavian's response. I can't rememebr the details, but you could make her insane.

[Persephone]

CoolCR wrote...

I think DA2 could learn alot from DA:O never mind the awsome ness of Bloodlines.

I am sorry but VTMB was ruined by its horrid bugs (Compared to that DAO and DA2 are bug free) and its complete destruction of the rulebook. LARPer here. VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

[varcety]

Persephone wrote...

CoolCR wrote...

I think DA2 could learn alot from DA:O never mind the awsome ness of Bloodlines.

I am sorry but VTMB was ruined by its horrid bugs (Compared to that DAO and DA2 are bug free) and its complete destruction of the rulebook. LARPer here. VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

As far as I'm concerned, RP comes before any desecration of combat mechanics.
Also, I admit never played tabletop VTM, but don't White Wolf themselves encourage modification
of the game's mechanics in favor of RP?

[The Angry One]

Persephone wrote...

CoolCR wrote...

I think DA2 could learn alot from DA:O never mind the awsome ness of Bloodlines.

I am sorry but VTMB was ruined by its horrid bugs (Compared to that DAO and DA2 are bug free) and its complete destruction of the rulebook. LARPer here. VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

Funny, I usually laugh at people who put on goth makeup and prance around saying "rawr, I'm a vampire".
Just saying.

[hurricaneez1]

The bugs in VTM were killers but the potential for greatness was obvious. Sad that the studio that created it went out of business before a good patch was created.

[Lithuasil]

Persephone wrote...

CoolCR wrote...

I think DA2 could learn alot from DA:O never mind the awsome ness of Bloodlines.

I am sorry but VTMB was ruined by its horrid bugs (Compared to that DAO and DA2 are bug free) and its complete destruction of the rulebook. LARPer here. VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

Think positive - compared to gothic 3, it's completely bug free. After about fifteen fanpatches, you can actually play it. And aside from that - I only know VTM from pnp, but . Pnp, larp and crpgs all try to emulate the same thing, with different media. Using the same rulesystem for three different medias, strikes me as a little odd. You know, like applying 3rd ed. D&d rules to larp, won't really work, and like Crpgs got increasingly better, once they stopped trying to be D&d with graphics, and started figuring out their own, more suitable systems.

[Maria Caliban]

Persephone wrote...

VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

Video gamers usually laugh at LARPers. Just sayin'.

[highcastle]

We're going to have agree to disagree on this one. I never felt emotionally connected to any "choice" I made in Fable 3 because no one got any characterization. The game was empty, the people bland sock puppets, and the choices laughable because there's no emotional reaction to killing any of them off.

Now, you might not like cutscene deaths or a game that inevitably ends in tragedy, but I do. You always have a choice in DA2. You have a choice in how you can react to events, in what you can do to try and stop them, but sometimes you fail. And that's okay. Not every battle needs to be winnable. Sometimes it matters more how or if you try to fight it, where you make your last stand, why you draw that line in the sand.

You may not like some things being beyond your control, but that's how the real world works. Sometimes you can't stop bad things from happening, and your only choice is how you deal with them. That's how DA2 works. Bad things happen, you try to cope to the best of your ability. Sometimes you succeed, a la the Arishok, other times you fail, such as the death of Leandra.

That scene might not have been "good" to you because you couldn't change it, but that's precisely what made it so powerful to me. Leandra got quite a bit of characterization. I was genuinely fond of her. Trying and failing to save her was a defining moment of the game. That reveal of what Quentin had done to her reminded me of Watchmen. I half-expected him to say, "I did it 35 minutes ago." Yet while most people can accept failure in print or film, they have a harder time when it comes about in games. I think it's because we don't like feeling as though we personally are failures. Well, too bad. Who says the only thing a game can make you feel is triumph? If you feel hopeless and helpless and in despair and that's what the writers wanted you to feel, then good! It's about time we had a game that delivers a different experience from save-the-world-be-a-hero-everybody-loves-you.

The funny thing is, some genres have already done this. Survival horror like some Silent Hill games and the recent Alan Wake end on decidedly bittersweet notes. Red Dead Redemption also did this. But I think in an RPG where people are more connected to their character (some using their PCs as self-inserts) the sting of failure hurts more. Again, good. Games should be able to make us feel a wide array of emotions, and DA2 did that for me.

So no, DA2 shouldn't learn a thing from Fable. I hope other RPGs learn from DA2, instead.

[CoolCR]

Its so weird i never had a problem with VTMB i got patch 1.2 and got the fan update i think 4.6 (i came quite late to the party) at the time and compleated the game with out ever hitting a major problem like a few crashes but DA2 has crashed on me and the out side areas wont render properly for me at very high graphics i have a gtx580 with new drivers this is not the way it was ment to be played.

But compare DA:O and VTMB where you stand and what you are makes a difference and that with DA2 im playing from male Warrior to fem Mage as big a difference as possible first but is got no difference at all in feel.

"Sometimes you succeed, a la the Arishok, other times you fail, such as the death of Leandra."

Yah baby two hours hidding behind pillars i felt like such a hero my epic ness will ring out across the land never ever ever bring up the Arishok to put a positive in about DA2!!! dumbest fight ever.

Leandra would have been fine but we had already lost a whole family at that point the game is about family the developer said so what the game is obviously trying to get across is that everyone dies. Well sorry but most of us already go a handle on that by that point. For me it was just another lets you the same bit of scrip again.

And que touching death... and again and again and again.

Its not all bad and i am going to finish a second time so i must get something out it (pobably what emos get out of cutting them selfs) but my god if it doesnt feel like i have been to low town for the hundreth time.

Modifié par CoolCR, 03 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[Persephone]

The Angry One wrote...

Persephone wrote...

CoolCR wrote...

I think DA2 could learn alot from DA:O never mind the awsome ness of Bloodlines.

I am sorry but VTMB was ruined by its horrid bugs (Compared to that DAO and DA2 are bug free) and its complete destruction of the rulebook. LARPer here. VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

Funny, I usually laugh at people who put on goth makeup and prance around saying "rawr, I'm a vampire".
Just saying.

Interesting concept of LARPing you've got there. No, really. That's SO how it works!

[Persephone]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Persephone wrote...

VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

Video gamers usually laugh at LARPers. Just sayin'.

And I'm sure it's the other way round as well because LARPs (According to them) offer the REAL RPG experience. Esp. tabletop larps.

I happen to love both, PC Games and LARPs. Strange, huh?

[Danjaru]

There's no denying that the Mage Apostate was a dissapointing experience that made no sense, and the fact that these dumb plot deaths that were kind of random instead of making real sense.

But nothing can be learned from Fable 3, that's the biggest disgrace of an RPG ever..

[Halo Quea]

highcastle wrote...



That scene might not have been "good" to you because you couldn't change it, but that's precisely what made it so powerful to me. Leandra got quite a bit of characterization. I was genuinely fond of her. Trying and failing to save her was a defining moment of the game.

It was?   Now this is funny to me because Hawke tries and fails at nearly everything, especially if it was his/her intention to keep someone alive.  Now if Hawke is supposed to go in a kill anything and everything that moves, well then basically he/she succeeds.

It wasn't a defining moment for me because that's nearly EVERY moment in the game.   Hawke doesn't seem to have the ability to "be there" when it counts.  Leandra, Seamus, Viscount Dumar, Grace, Thrask, the Eleven Wife in the Alienage, the Qunari delegates, Anders (oh gawd Anders!).  I could go on and on. 

The simple fact is that Hawke isn't meant to change anything in Kirkwall, his presense as a sword or staff for hire could be viewed as purely opportunistic.  People in Kirkwall need killing?  Hawke is your man/woman.   Want to solve a crisis before it blows completely out control?  Don't call Hawke.    Want to stop something insane from happening while it's happening RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?  Don't call Hawke.   If Hawke KNOWS who's causing problems in Kirkwall, KNOWS who's spreading subversion............don't expect Hawke to do anything about it.

Hawke likes to wait, and wait.......and wait some more.   Like waiting for nightfall and following blood trails that any fool could have followed during the day time.   But this is Hawke we're talking about here, a person who wouldn't even get off his/her butt to go tell poor Bethany their mom died.   With Hawke there's never a need to rush, or any  sense of urgency.  Now Hawke LOVES to ask you what your problems are and LOVES offering to help. The problem is that Hawke never actually solve problems.   Hawke will kill your problems for you, but only AFTER they've become UNSOLVABLE.

S/He's the Champion of Kirkwall.  Did you know that? 

It's an amazing title, only one person in Kirkwall is allowed to have it.  But shhhh!! Don't tell Hawke, s/he thinks it's an important position.    S/He's still everyone's little errand boy/girl.  Just be sure to have plently of coin on hand when the killing is done. 

[CoolCR]

Persephone wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Persephone wrote...

VTM Larpers usually laugh at VTMB. Including myself.

Video gamers usually laugh at LARPers. Just sayin'.

And I'm sure it's the other way round as well because LARPs (According to them) offer the REAL RPG experience. Esp. tabletop larps.

I happen to love both, PC Games and LARPs. Strange, huh?

I play 40k so the tabletop is not a new to me but i mustsay i had never played any world of darkness stuff so VTMB had nothing to get wrong in my book and so everything was cool for me. I liked the plot and the fact the characters had real understandable motivations the rules (or guidlines as most dont follow them) make sense and the concepts feel well thought out.

The sub missions were very well engaging.

Hm may have to fire up the Masquarde.

Halo Quea has said it well +1

Modifié par CoolCR, 03 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[Halo Quea]

Danjaru wrote...

There's no denying that the Mage Apostate was a dissapointing experience that made no sense, and the fact that these dumb plot deaths that were kind of random instead of making real sense.

But nothing can be learned from Fable 3, that's the biggest disgrace of an RPG ever..

Fable3 is no different than DA2 in the sense that both had their moments of promise where they seemed like they were going to be better than you expected...............and then the waves of your hopes ended up crashing against the rocks of disappointment.   They were both such major let downs that I can honestly say that neither studio will get another blind-faith pre-order from me again.