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[Obadiah]

We learned in Dragon Age: Origins that Caradin created the dwarf golems in a lyrium exposed chamber that used dwarf sacrifices to entomb their souls in bodies of stone.

The end of Dragon Age 2 contained what appears to be 3 golems: 
- A sliver of the primeval lyrium idol resurrected a phantom golem in the Hightown mansion
- Orsino turned into a Flesh Golem with blood magic
- Meredith was able to create (what looked like) a bunch of statue golems with the primeval lyrium infused sword

Any ideas or musings on what this connection between lyrium, blood magic, and golems means?

[BigEvil]

I've read some theories that perhaps Caradin didn't create the golems and instead found/received the knowledge from a primeval thaig. It sounds interesting but I'm not sure how it would work out without others knowing that Caradin didn't create them.

As for Meredith and the statues. I was sort of wondering if it was also something to do with Tevinter. We know Tevinter created Kirkwall based on some runic symbols with something big in mind, and that the veil is very thin there. I wonder if they created the statues as defence mechanisms but never had the chance to activate them due to the slave rebellion that kicked them out of Kirkwall. The primeval lyrium does seem to speak or "sing" to the people it corrupts, perhaps it told Meredith how to activate them.

[LobselVith8]

The presence of golems in the primevil thaigs seems to contradict what's been established (since Caridin created the golems a millennia ago to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat), but it could be the same reason no guards or templars acknowledge Hawke or Bethany as apostates if they use magic in front of them.

[caradoc2000]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The presence of golems in the primevil thaigs seems to contradict what's been established (since Caridin created the golems a millennia ago to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat)

As BigEvil said, maybe Caridin just recovered the lost knowledge of making golems.

[Huntress]

@LobselVith8

Bethany/Anders/Merril and hawk have 3 strong allies, one is the captain guard, the other is a warden, number 3 is Varric.

This 3 could stop any type of arrest at any giving time. If you kill the serial killer that target childrens listen to what aveline said.

Varric will try and cover up everything just the same as with merril, check the templars looking for a blond mage.

And last the warden, really who is going to stop a warden?

Modifié par Huntress, 03 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[LobselVith8]

caradoc2000 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The presence of golems in the primevil thaigs seems to contradict what's been established (since Caridin created the golems a millennia ago to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat)

As BigEvil said, maybe Caridin just recovered the lost knowledge of making golems.

I understand, but Caridin doesn't seem to address that he found the knowledge of making golems elsewhere, he acknowledges the Anvil was one of his creations when you speak to him at Caridin's Cross (the one that he is remembered for, specifically). I suppose the writers could change this for an expansion to DA2 or DLC, though.

Huntress wrote...

@LobselVith8

Bethany/Anders/Merril and hawk have 3 strong allies, one is the captain guard, the other is a warden, number 3 is Varric.

I meant when Hawke initially comes to Kirkwall, and uses magic in the Gallows (in front of the guards, and possibly the templars as it is the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall). There seems to be a disconnect when you have Cullen telling an apostate Hawke that mages "aren't people like you and me" when he used magic to save him from the possessed templar; basically, everyone has selective amnesia about Hawke being an illegal mage until the Qunari invasion happens.

[vehzeel]

Mage-Hawke uses the Force to make everyone forget what they just saw: "There is no blood mage" etc

[caradoc2000]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I understand, but Caridin doesn't seem to address that he found the knowledge of making golems elsewhere, he acknowledges the Anvil was one of his creations when you speak to him at Caridin's Cross (the one that he is remembered for, specifically).

The anvil may well have been his creation, perhaps an innovative, more efficient way of making golems. It could still be based on the existing lore he found in the Deep Roads.

[LobselVith8]

vehzeel wrote...

Mage-Hawke uses the Force to make everyone forget what they just saw: "There is no blood mage" etc

Plot hole explained.

[IanPolaris]

Huntress wrote...

@LobselVith8

Bethany/Anders/Merril and hawk have 3 strong allies, one is the captain guard, the other is a warden, number 3 is Varric.

This 3 could stop any type of arrest at any giving time. If you kill the serial killer that target childrens listen to what aveline said.

Varric will try and cover up everything just the same as with merril, check the templars looking for a blond mage.

And last the warden, really who is going to stop a warden?

So this is why the Templars don't arrest a bunch of penniless Fereldan refugees for openly using battlemagic to save the local captain of the guard when that magic is done in downtown Templar-ville?  Really?

-Polaris

[Herr Uhl]

Huntress wrote...

@LobselVith8

Bethany/Anders/Merril and hawk have 3 strong allies, one is the captain guard, the other is a warden, number 3 is Varric.

This 3 could stop any type of arrest at any giving time. If you kill the serial killer that target childrens listen to what aveline said.

Varric will try and cover up everything just the same as with merril, check the templars looking for a blond mage.

And last the warden, really who is going to stop a warden?

Since when does the Warden protect Bethany?

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The presence of golems in the primevil thaigs seems to contradict what's been established (since Caridin created the golems a millennia ago to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat), but it could be the same reason no guards or templars acknowledge Hawke or Bethany as apostates if they use magic in front of them.

Bartrand mentions that he's acting based on rumours dating from the 3rd blight, which is after Caridin, so perhaps they were left behind by the previous people who found it.

[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The presence of golems in the primevil thaigs seems to contradict what's been established (since Caridin created the golems a millennia ago to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat)

As BigEvil said, maybe Caridin just recovered the lost knowledge of making golems.

I understand, but Caridin doesn't seem to address that he found the knowledge of making golems elsewhere, he acknowledges the Anvil was one of his creations when you speak to him at Caridin's Cross (the one that he is remembered for, specifically). I suppose the writers could change this for an expansion to DA2 or DLC, though.

Huntress wrote...

@LobselVith8

Bethany/Anders/Merril and hawk have 3 strong allies, one is the captain guard, the other is a warden, number 3 is Varric.

I meant when Hawke initially comes to Kirkwall, and uses magic in the Gallows (in front of the guards, and possibly the templars as it is the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall). There seems to be a disconnect when you have Cullen telling an apostate Hawke that mages "aren't people like you and me" when he used magic to save him from the possessed templar; basically, everyone has selective amnesia about Hawke being an illegal mage until the Qunari invasion happens.

Remeber  if you are mage the soldiers think you are going strait to the gallows, they know you are a mage yes, they are ruled by a captain that only care of his pocket sound. Mages are templars job and you meet soldiers not templars.

And then you get  to ally with 1 of the 2 under-dog of the city.

Modifié par Huntress, 03 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[Herr Uhl]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The presence of golems in the primevil thaigs seems to contradict what's been established (since Caridin created the golems a millennia ago to beat back the darkspawn and the first Archdemon Dumat), but it could be the same reason no guards or templars acknowledge Hawke or Bethany as apostates if they use magic in front of them.

Bartrand mentions that he's acting based on rumours dating from the 3rd blight, which is after Caridin, so perhaps they were left behind by the previous people who found it.

Possible. They were trying to make a push against the darkspawn. Still, golems there make more sense than a dragon a few weeks into the deep roads. What does it eat? Darkspawn?

Then again, there was a dragon hidden inside the throne room of Orzammar, so what do I know. Maybe they can hibernate or something *shrugs*.

[IanPolaris]

Huntress wrote...

Remeber  if you are mage the soldiers think you are going strait to the gallows, they know you are a mage yes, they are ruled by a captain that only care of his pocket sound. Mages are templars job and you meet soldiers not templars.

And then you get  to ally with 1 of the 2 under-dog of the city.

Since when?  You do open and flashy battlemagic less than a 100 yards away from the KC's head office and you are trying to tell me that the Templars didn't see it?  That the guards don't have standing orders to arrest and detain all apostates seen within the refugees (a perfectly legal and reasonable order btw for any Templar Knight Commander)?  Really?

-Polaris

[Huntress]

IanPolaris wrote...

Huntress wrote...

@LobselVith8

Bethany/Anders/Merril and hawk have 3 strong allies, one is the captain guard, the other is a warden, number 3 is Varric.

This 3 could stop any type of arrest at any giving time. If you kill the serial killer that target childrens listen to what aveline said.

Varric will try and cover up everything just the same as with merril, check the templars looking for a blond mage.

And last the warden, really who is going to stop a warden?

So this is why the Templars don't arrest a bunch of penniless Fereldan refugees for openly using battlemagic to save the local captain of the guard when that magic is done in downtown Templar-ville?  Really?

-Polaris

Yes, varric stop templars from looking to anders/merril direction for 7 years, aveline will destroy any paper that come naming any of them, Warden mage can say: I m a gray warden blah blah blah turns blue, guards and templars run away.

[Obadiah]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Possible. They were trying to make a push against the darkspawn. Still, golems there make more sense than a dragon a few weeks into the deep roads. What does it eat? Darkspawn?

Then again, there was a dragon hidden inside the throne room of Orzammar, so what do I know. Maybe they can hibernate or something *shrugs*.

Unknown, but it appears to be something in the lore. Dragons show up in the deep roads in the novels as well. The inscription about the dragon trapped in Orzammar seems to indicate that the dragon was a topsider's problem, and lured to Orzammar to be trapped to curry favor with the Tevinters.

Could be some connection there to the archdemons?

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 avril 2011 - 07:14 .

[Obadiah]

BigEvil wrote...

I've read some theories that perhaps Caradin didn't create the golems and instead found/received the knowledge from a primeval thaig. It sounds interesting but I'm not sure how it would work out without others knowing that Caradin didn't create them.

As for Meredith and the statues. I was sort of wondering if it was also something to do with Tevinter. We know Tevinter created Kirkwall based on some runic symbols with something big in mind, and that the veil is very thin there. I wonder if they created the statues as defence mechanisms but never had the chance to activate them due to the slave rebellion that kicked them out of Kirkwall. The primeval lyrium does seem to speak or "sing" to the people it corrupts, perhaps it told Meredith how to activate them.

Seems reasonable. Could be something like:
1) Primeval lyrium gave primeval dwarves ability to make golems
2) Caradin re-discovers golem creation from, dunno, expedition?
3) Primeval lyrium idol is discovered in expedition and speaks to people it comes into contact
4) Primeval shard does... what... summons spirit of Golem? Thought that was actually a dwarf? Do golems even have spirits?
5) Primeval infused lyrium sword gives Meredith ability to summon or activate sleeping golems (like Shale was) in the docks.

The cause can't be just the primeval lyrium because there's a lot of it all over the thaig. The Grey Wardens or anyone else who went into the Thaig could cart the stuff off and become a bunch of raving loons. So the influence must be from the idol specifically. That would make sense if it was a divine lyrium infused thing. So far we haven't seen anything divinely powered in game.

Hmm... the only thing the speaks to people's minds so far in Dragon Age is the Archdemon when you drink Archdemon blood, something in High Dragon blood, and the idol. Could be they're all conduits for some kind of spirits, maybe even the Old Gods.

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[LobselVith8]

Huntress wrote...

Yes, varric stop templars from looking to anders/merril direction for 7 years, aveline will destroy any paper that come naming any of them, Warden mage can say: I m a gray warden blah blah blah turns blue, guards and templars run away. 

I think Ian is addressing how guards and templars who see Hawke perform magic forget that he's a mage, like Cullen, who is saved by an apostate Hawke from a possessed templar, and later on says how mages "aren't people like you and me."

[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Yes, varric stop templars from looking to anders/merril direction for 7 years, aveline will destroy any paper that come naming any of them, Warden mage can say: I m a gray warden blah blah blah turns blue, guards and templars run away. 

I think Ian is addressing how guards and templars who see Hawke perform magic forget that he's a mage, like Cullen, who is saved by an apostate Hawke from a possessed templar, and later on says how mages "aren't people like you and me."

As a mage you never tell cullen that you are a mage, even if 1 day ago you were pewpewing fire bolts from your arse.

As a mage you said: I have friends* mages blah blah

Yes somehow they fotget that you are a mage, is a good thing, or we would have never been in the open after you pewpew the refuge in the entrance.. Just stop and think if the guards put you in jail for been an apostate and pewpew spell infront of everyone.. tranquil hawk, trying to scape the gallows? That would have been great.. no romances and who cares, you'll never think of scaping as tranquil anyway.

Modifié par Huntress, 03 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[NvVanity]

From Golems of Amgarrak there apparently was a Tevinter Mage involved with the creation of the Harvester. In the final boss battle we have Tevinter Statues coming to life to fight us. I'm guessing there is something Tevinter related with that Thaig. Perhaps the Imperium before the First Blight knew how to create golems and whatever was with that crazy Idol.

[Obadiah]

NvVanity wrote...

From Golems of Amgarrak there apparently was a Tevinter Mage involved with the creation of the Harvester. In the final boss battle we have Tevinter Statues coming to life to fight us. I'm guessing there is something Tevinter related with that Thaig. Perhaps the Imperium before the First Blight knew how to create golems and whatever was with that crazy Idol.

- Orsimo created the flesh golem with Blood Magic
- Caradin's description of his creation of the golems sounds like Blood Magic
- Blood magic appears to originate with discussions with fade spirits/demons (it's how the Warden learns it in DAO, and where Merril gets her knowledge in DA2)

If the Tevinters practised Blood Magic and were as powerful as the legends claim, chances are the spirits that taught them Blood Magic also gave them the secrets of golems. That would be a fair explanation of why dormant golems are in the docks. Perhaps the Tevinter did give this information to the dwarves of the Primeval Thaigs.

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 avril 2011 - 08:03 .