28 réponses à ce sujet

[Andronic0s]

 Am I the only one who considered Justice the best character in awakenings and is depressed at what Anders did to him in DA2? I miss he's unwavering commitment to what was just regardless of whetever it was good or bad, it helped keep thing in perspective during though choices in Awakenings, and never took nonsense from anyone

The guy just wanted what was just, after seeing the mage situation and decided to help out, only to be pretty much turned into a demon by Anders irrational hatred of Templars (keep in mind he was raised in the Ferelden circle where the templar hand is very soft compared to Kirkwall)
Anders must have some sort of pathological hatred of authority because he left the Wardens only because he could not just do whatever he wanted and had to follow orders, even though thanks to them he was a Free Man with a cool job that helps the common man. Talk about being an ungrateful bastard!

In any case I have to praise the writers on this regard, Anders 2.0 is a complex and interesting character and was very fun to have around I just wish Justice would have chimed in more often so I could feel he was still there somewhere.

I wonder did the writer that wrote justice in Awakening helped with the interactions for Anders? so that Anders is a mix of the two or is Anders meant to mostly him with a touch of Justice?

What do you guys think 

[LadyJaneGrey]

Andronic0s wrote...
I miss he's unwavering commitment to what was just regardless of whetever it was good or bad, it helped keep thing in perspective during though choices in Awakenings, and never took nonsense from anyone

Awakening's Justice kept me interested, if more than a little nervous.  I don't see him as having an unwavering commitment to justice as an ideal once he left the Fade though.  He seemed so naive and malleable in conversations with the Warden.  Did your Warden ever take him to Amaranthine and then leave the city to burn?

Justice objects that burning Amaranthine and leaving the innocents "is not just," but then agrees to leave right after the Warden says "no, but it is wise."  And off we went without any extended discussion or any kind of problem.

That uncertainity and malleability is one bit of writing I see as working wonderfully to set up the whole Justice+Anders=Vengeance.

[Ghrelt]

Yeah, I was miffed at Anders for what he did to Justice, not the other way around.

[Abispa]

Justice came from a place that, as the Spirit of Valor explains in DA:O, the inhabitants can create anything they want will only a thought. No matter how powerful an abomination he may be, Justice in the real world would always need to work with others, many of whom don't entirely agree with his desires. Thus he could only hope to achieve limited influence in Thedas where he was once able to entirely create a reality. I see the WMD (by Dragon Age standards) as the ultimate act of frustration and spite. He can't fix it, he's just going to break. Anders' role seemed to be one of containment and assigning Justice a target, the Chantry.

Edit: Oh, man, my grammar is getting bad. Damn internet.

Modifié par Abispa, 03 avril 2011 - 05:39 .

[ipgd]

Andronic0s wrote...

Anders must have some sort of pathological hatred of authority because he left the Wardens only because he could not just do whatever he wanted and had to follow orders, even though thanks to them he was a Free Man with a cool job that helps the common man. Talk about being an ungrateful bastard!

Actually, Anders left the Wardens because he, uh, accidentally slaughtered a whole group of wardens and templars after getting cozy with Justice.

Considering he goes on to live in a sewer and heal impoverished refugees for free, I don't think he's lacking much in the "helping the common man" department.

[ReallyRue]

Justice was a favourite of mine too, in Awakening. I was a little disappointed that he barely ever speaks up in DA2. Usually, we just hear about him second-hand, from Anders. I was hoping there would be some way to communicate with him in the Fade (like a longer version of the short chat they had in Feynriel's quest). Anders' situation was fascinating, but so was Justice's. I'd have liked to see some more from his perspective. Like if he remembered anything before joining with Anders, if he had any thoughts on it.

[Sarielle]

My Orlesian warden "killed' Justice. She was not a fan of the preachy preachy idealism. lol

[Sjofn]

 I really liked Awakenings Justice, although part of me was like "Man, don't say you envy what Kristoff had, that won't end well." But then the game ended and I was like, "Phew! He dodged that bullet!"

[TheHawkeWhoFlies]

ReallyRue wrote...

Justice was a favourite of mine too, in Awakening. I was a little disappointed that he barely ever speaks up in DA2. Usually, we just hear about him second-hand, from Anders. I was hoping there would be some way to communicate with him in the Fade (like a longer version of the short chat they had in Feynriel's quest). Anders' situation was fascinating, but so was Justice's. I'd have liked to see some more from his perspective. Like if he remembered anything before joining with Anders, if he had any thoughts on it.

I too loved Justice in awakening, and was also disappointed at how little screentime he actually got. As much as I like JAnders in DA2 (and I'm guessing one of the few who did), I still think they could've done it all a little differently; instead of turning Justice into a demon and changing Anders as a result, they could've kept the two personalities intact.

That way, it'd have been something like Justice constantly bugging Anders about fighting injustice (for the mages' justice in particular, but also other stuff - one of the few things that bugged me about Janders was how his focus was solely on mage issues when Justice was really about more than that) while Anders would've tried to stay out of trouble because of the effort required / the risks the struggle would bring him. That would've allowed for a lot of funny banter I think (say, Justice cutting into a conversation Anders is having with "Surely you do not intend to indulge your pleasure with Hawke while there are poor people in Lowtown who you need to fight for!?").

Also, that way they could've done a slight variation on the Friend/Rivalry system; instead of friendship/rivalry, they could've gone with "Anders/Justice" - whoever agreed with you more would gain more control over Anders' body (you like doing just things, Justice gets out more often, if you do things Anders approves of, he maintains control more often).

Then again, there's probably a flaw with that line of thought somewhere. And as I said, I actually like the take on Anders and Justice in DA2. I just think it could've been better still.

[Sarielle]

Hah, I thought of that as well, Sjofn. Justice was already on the way to being corrupted, imo. ("Good" fade spirits don't desire possession, remember?) Anders' anger + willingness to host just sealed the deal.

[_Aine_]

Justice never approved of my moderate warden so I ended up eventually not liking him much. He was *not* moderate though, so that explains that. WHoever it was that showed up in DA2 though....also not moderate.

[Andronic0s]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Awakening's Justice kept me interested, if more than a little nervous.  I don't see him as having an unwavering commitment to justice as an ideal once he left the Fade though.  He seemed so naive and malleable in conversations with the Warden.  Did your Warden ever take him to Amaranthine and then leave the city to burn?

Justice objects that burning Amaranthine and leaving the innocents "is not just," but then agrees to leave right after the Warden says "no, but it is wise."  And off we went without any extended discussion or any kind of problem.

That uncertainity and malleability is one bit of writing I see as working wonderfully to set up the whole Justice+Anders=Vengeance.

I stayed to save the city so he was with me 100% in my game, and as for Anders slaughtering Grey Wanders, I did not knew! the weasel did not told me anything in my game even though I had max firendship with him.
He was lucky he was my only healer or I would have killed him and hopefully return Justice to the fade though I wonder if the corruption would have followed him there so that he would be actively trying to get somone to "agree" to a possesion in order to return to the world, effectively completing his tranformation into a demon 


In some ways he was like a child learning about the world, exept self-righteous and deadly 

Modifié par Andronic0s, 03 avril 2011 - 10:16 .

[The Cannibal Factory]

I loved Justice in Awakenings. Despite being very hard to please, I found him very satisfying to talk to (in the limited way available). I liked the idea of him feeling an echo of Kristoff compelling him to seek out the man's widow and avenge her loss.

His line about how beauty goes overlooked outside of the Fade struck a chord with me, as did his musings about hearing lyrium sing and his gradual realisation that he does in fact envy other emotions like love. He is a beautiful creature, lost in a strange world, clinging to his one-dimensional desire to embody Justice. The rotting corpse look also emphased his displacement.

I do feel he is unfairly maligned in DA2. If you speak to Anders nicely (no flirting) when he first comes clean about Justice, he tells Hawke that Justice was going to die without a willing host. So I don't believe Justice had yet grown demonic, or tricked Anders into anything. Anders wanted to be more like Justice - to act on his desire to help Mages, rather than run away as he always has - but was naive to think that his friend couldn't be corrupted.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, I was desperate to see more of Justice, or Vengeance as he became, on a deeper level. All we get is a shouty, one-dimensional quasi-Rage demon, who is slowly working on taking over his host (see rivalmance "black outs" conversation, Act 3).

People say Anders was nothing like his old self. Well, Justice was worse! I guess that was the intention but it could have been handled better. We got a lot of Anders angsting about what he has become - but nothing from our favourite trapped Spirit. Disappointing for Justice fans!

[The Cannibal Factory]

Addendum:

Additional point of dismay on my part. I totally wanted to be able to romance Justice/Vengeance, rather than Anders, depending on game choices/paths....

There, I said it.

[Mr.House]

I miss Justice.... not the corrupted thing Anders made

Poor Justice, he became the very thing he was afraid of.

[thesuperdarkone]

Mr.House wrote...

I miss Justice.... not the corrupted thing Anders made

Poor Justice, he became the very thing he was afraid of.

 

I know:( My Warden would never have let any of that happen.

[Jean]

I do hope that in future games if one decides to kill Anders, that you get to run into Justice, the same being from Awakenings and not what he turned into. Assuming his corruption isn't permanent. I'd love to hear what he would of thought about what happened.

[rwscissors702]

Batteries wrote...

I do hope that in future games if one decides to kill Anders, that you get to run into Justice, the same being from Awakenings and not what he turned into. Assuming his corruption isn't permanent. I'd love to hear what he would of thought about what happened.

Unlikely, in Awakening if you offered to kill Justice so he can go back to the fade he declines saying he doesn't want to die. I believe with demon possesions killing the host also kills the demon. Kill anders and Justice dies also.

[Andronic0s]

I like your idea Batteries as anders mentions that killing him "might" release Justice so there is hope, I really liked that it is implied in the dialogue that justice was not in agreement with Anders actions

[sassperella]

I actually think they corrupted each other to an extent.
If you look at a lot of the awakening dialog between Anders and Justice and Nate and Justice and the conversation with the warden about Justice envying the love Kristoff had for aura but envy is a demon emotion and starting to enjoy the mortal realm etc. he was no innocent. Yes Anders rage made him turn to Vengeance, but I think that his fall from spirit to demon began before they merged and was probably even the reason that Justice wanted to merge in the first place, only demons want to see the mortal realm through living eyes.
So I personally blame them both for the final outcome.

Modifié par sassperella, 05 avril 2011 - 07:05 .

[Sabariel]

Ellythe wrote...

Yeah, I was miffed at Anders for what he did to Justice, not the other way around.

Justice was already starting to show worrying behavior in DAA.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Justice was probably my best friend out of the companions in Awakening. I was really sad about his lack of screen-time and corruption in DA2. I was actually a little ecstatic to see my to plan see him by bringing Anders to the fade worked.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 08 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[Sarielle]

Sabariel wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

Yeah, I was miffed at Anders for what he did to Justice, not the other way around.

Justice was already starting to show worrying behavior in DAA.

Agreed. And there's always Merrill's rather grownup talk about:

“There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.”

Modifié par Sarielle, 09 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[_Aine_]

Sorry OP, I respectfully disagree, although I do not know who wrote Justice in DA:A    I just know that the Anders we see now is NOT Anders.  Perhaps I am also wrong, and this Vengeance is not Justice either. But still. I don't actually buy the whole " Oh, woe is me, I am Anders and I ruined a beautiful spirit" load of crap we are fed in DA2.  If *I* was a demon infesting a human, THAT is what I would say too!  Always blame the host.  It's an Abominations first rule! lol 

ANY spirit with an agenda won`t tell you the truth, or come across like a flaming **** because they *need* you to believe them, that they have *your* best interests at heart. They operate on a *need* basis, their own and the exploitation of yours.

Anders desired freedom. To the point that this ``spirit`could exploit that. I didn`t like him in Awakenings though, and I still don`t. Justice that is. To me, that was always a demon. Benevolent spirits don`t stick around wearing dead meat.  Even killers are nice some of the time.  Abominations may be no different.

Modifié par shantisands, 09 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[Sarielle]

shantisands wrote...
Benevolent spirits don`t stick around wearing dead meat.  Even killers are nice some of the time.  Abominations may be no different.

In fact I rather think the clever/effective ones couldn't be. EDIT: different, that is. Sentence didn't make much sense at first, lol.

And "Justice" is damned effective. Though I'm not sure he was anything other than he presented himself to be in the Fade. However, once he got stuck in a dead warden's body, and started envying what Kristoff had with his wife, etc...no. He was no longer a pure spirit.

All that said, I think any pure emotion/ideal is, as Merrill said, dangerous. Extremes are never good.

Modifié par Sarielle, 09 avril 2011 - 01:38 .