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How would you react if saving the rachni queen turned out to bite you in the ass in ME3?


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#51
Mr0TYuH

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I personally would enjoy such a twist.  I would also not mind if the rachni ended up being as advertised.  I certainly think some paragon choices should end up biting you on the backside.  All this talk about karma is a load of bull.  In the real world, nice people get used and walked on.  It's the selfish pricks who benefit.  While I certainly enjoy the fantasy that good actions can have rewards in my video games, if it always the case, it ruins my suspension of disbelief.

Admoniter wrote...

This is another problem with the P/R system especially in ME2 it became more or less the standard morality system. Which IMO it shouldn't be, what it really should be is what it was originally, the diference between idealism and pragmatism, one isn't necessarily better than the other and one isn't necessarily a douche because in their mind the mission always comes first.

I will give you this compared to ME1, ME2s renegades are complete douches, who are giants pricks because they can be. And yes ME is guilty of this as well but to a much lesser degree.

QTF

Paragon and Renegade were supposed to be good cop and bad cop.  It was supposed to be the difference between someone who followed the rules and someone who'd do whatever it takes to get the job done.  The Paragon believes that the journey is as important as the destination.  The Renegade believes the ends justify the means.  Neither should be mugging a random man on the street for some credits.  The Paragon is an optimist and the Renegade is a pragmatist.  It should have made recovering Nirali Bhatia's body for her husband Renegade and leaving it with the Alliance Paragon.  While ME wasn't perfect with this, it did a much better job than ME2.  They even had Shepard go all Terminator in the sequel if he was Renegade.  I always heal the scars because I just find that so stupid.  It just reminds me of the stupid thing in Star Wars where you become physically deformed from the Dark Side because the evil corrupts your very form.  This implosion of the system ends up culminating with the decision to keep the Collector Base.  It never should have been a debate about all the people who died and how using the technology was evil.  It should have been about the risks of using that technology, since all previous interaction with active Reaper technology has ended badly.  I should have been the Paragon decision to keep the base, since you were aquiescing to the higher ups and hoping the benefits would outway the risks.  Destroying the base should have been the Renegade decision, since you were telling TIM to STFU and pragmatically deciding to avoid the risks altogether.

This is all just my opinion, and I'll freely admit I'm an idiot, but I really hope BioWare is much more thoughful with the system than in ME2.  It went from an interesting, if sometimes inconsistent and imperfect, system in the first game to being the standard good vs evil/douchebag of ME2.  While I never play as pure Paragon or Renegade, I do lean more toward the Paragon with the majority of my characters.  I still want some of those decisions to come back to haunt me.  Not all of them, mind you, but enough to not make it an automatic decision.  Sometimes the Paragon choice should be the most beneficial.  Sometimes Renegade choices should be the smart ones.  Sometimes both should be viable.  In the end, though, there should be more of a difference than a few emails and Paragons having more allies at the end of the game.

#52
Estelindis

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I'd be okay with it. Not all paragon decisions should work out for the best (I say this as a 90% paragon myself).

#53
LadyJaneGrey

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Maybe Ashley and Wrex should call Shep up and yell "I told you so"?

#54
Zulu_DFA

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Rachni Queen was a bug.

Anyway, the poll.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 avril 2011 - 01:42 .


#55
MarqueAZ

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But then why the heck would she have an asari waiting all day at Illium to talk to you? :P To further her deception?

#56
Admoniter

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Mr0TYuH wrote...
Paragon and Renegade were supposed to be good cop and bad cop.  It was supposed to be the difference between someone who followed the rules and someone who'd do whatever it takes to get the job done.  The Paragon believes that the journey is as important as the destination.  The Renegade believes the ends justify the means.  Neither should be mugging a random man on the street for some credits.  The Paragon is an optimist and the Renegade is a pragmatist.  It should have made recovering Nirali Bhatia's body for her husband Renegade and leaving it with the Alliance Paragon.  While ME wasn't perfect with this, it did a much better job than ME2.  They even had Shepard go all Terminator in the sequel if he was Renegade.  I always heal the scars because I just find that so stupid.  It just reminds me of the stupid thing in Star Wars where you become physically deformed from the Dark Side because the evil corrupts your very form.  This implosion of the system ends up culminating with the decision to keep the Collector Base.  It never should have been a debate about all the people who died and how using the technology was evil.  It should have been about the risks of using that technology, since all previous interaction with active Reaper technology has ended badly.  I should have been the Paragon decision to keep the base, since you were aquiescing to the higher ups and hoping the benefits would outway the risks.  Destroying the base should have been the Renegade decision, since you were telling TIM to STFU and pragmatically deciding to avoid the risks altogether.

This is all just my opinion, and I'll freely admit I'm an idiot, but I really hope BioWare is much more thoughful with the system than in ME2.  It went from an interesting, if sometimes inconsistent and imperfect, system in the first game to being the standard good vs evil/douchebag of ME2.  While I never play as pure Paragon or Renegade, I do lean more toward the Paragon with the majority of my characters.  I still want some of those decisions to come back to haunt me.  Not all of them, mind you, but enough to not make it an automatic decision.  Sometimes the Paragon choice should be the most beneficial.  Sometimes Renegade choices should be the smart ones.  Sometimes both should be viable.  In the end, though, there should be more of a difference than a few emails and Paragons having more allies at the end of the game.


This guy, he gets it.

#57
marshalleck

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I'd laugh at the all the paragons, then continue on unbitten since I almost always douse the thing.

#58
breakdown71289

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Barquiel wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Killing the queen seemed... irrational. I never even looked at it as a choice - she was the only remnant of an ancient race forced into war by indoctrination, and I wasn't about to cause its extinction by pressing a single button. If it turns against me, fine, I'll deal with it right then and there.


this

I can't condemn the queen to death for something she hasn't done.


Exactly.....and i just couldn't kill the rachni queen when i knew that there was the possibility of peace between us.

Modifié par breakdown71289, 04 avril 2011 - 01:58 .


#59
Clonedzero

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i would absolutely love it if saving the rachni would end up being a bad thing.

EVERYONE assumes it sa good thing. the reapers are presumed to be the ones that messed up their "song" and made them go nuts.

guess who's coming back? the reapers!

gee i wonder how that could go wrong.....lol.

seriously i hope the reapers make them frenzy again. that'd be lovely.

#60
Clonedzero

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LGTX wrote...

Killing the queen seemed... irrational. I never even looked at it as a choice - she was the only remnant of an ancient race forced into war by indoctrination, and I wasn't about to cause its extinction by pressing a single button. If it turns against me, fine, I'll deal with it right then and there.

at the time of the choice you had no idea the war was caused by indoctrination. you are breaking the role playing aspect by metagaming. stop it.

#61
AdmiralCheez

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Admoniter wrote...

Mr0TYuH wrote...
Paragon and Renegade were supposed to be good cop and bad cop.  It was supposed to be the difference between someone who followed the rules and someone who'd do whatever it takes to get the job done.  The Paragon believes that the journey is as important as the destination.  The Renegade believes the ends justify the means.  Neither should be mugging a random man on the street for some credits.  The Paragon is an optimist and the Renegade is a pragmatist.  It should have made recovering Nirali Bhatia's body for her husband Renegade and leaving it with the Alliance Paragon.  While ME wasn't perfect with this, it did a much better job than ME2.  They even had Shepard go all Terminator in the sequel if he was Renegade.  I always heal the scars because I just find that so stupid.  It just reminds me of the stupid thing in Star Wars where you become physically deformed from the Dark Side because the evil corrupts your very form.  This implosion of the system ends up culminating with the decision to keep the Collector Base.  It never should have been a debate about all the people who died and how using the technology was evil.  It should have been about the risks of using that technology, since all previous interaction with active Reaper technology has ended badly.  I should have been the Paragon decision to keep the base, since you were aquiescing to the higher ups and hoping the benefits would outway the risks.  Destroying the base should have been the Renegade decision, since you were telling TIM to STFU and pragmatically deciding to avoid the risks altogether.

This is all just my opinion, and I'll freely admit I'm an idiot, but I really hope BioWare is much more thoughful with the system than in ME2.  It went from an interesting, if sometimes inconsistent and imperfect, system in the first game to being the standard good vs evil/douchebag of ME2.  While I never play as pure Paragon or Renegade, I do lean more toward the Paragon with the majority of my characters.  I still want some of those decisions to come back to haunt me.  Not all of them, mind you, but enough to not make it an automatic decision.  Sometimes the Paragon choice should be the most beneficial.  Sometimes Renegade choices should be the smart ones.  Sometimes both should be viable.  In the end, though, there should be more of a difference than a few emails and Paragons having more allies at the end of the game.


This guy, he gets it.

He does, indeed.  Let us print it out, laminate it, and mail it to the Bioware HQ for them to stick on the wall.

#62
Leonia

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I've been expecting it for quite some time to come around and bite me in the ass.. and possibly the genophage as well. That's what adds so much weight to those decisions, can you really trust the queen? The only reason I chose to work with the rachni is because they reminded me of the aliens in the Ender series and the queen being the last of her kind appealed to my conservation side (it's also why I don't kill any dragons in Dragon Age unless I have to, they're supposed to be on the endangered species list). If they get out of hand again, there's always the krogan (with their genophage cure in my pocket) ready to take them out.

Modifié par leonia42, 04 avril 2011 - 02:21 .


#63
arc00ta

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Somehow I don't think this is possible. You saved their entire race, just because they look mean doesn't mean anything at all. From the dialogue in the game you get the idea that the rachni were indoctrinated during the wars. I would find it much more likely to be betrayed by the council (again) than the rachni.

#64
StarGateGod

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if she turned on  me which i know she wont she cool , id just go back a replay ME1 and ME2 pretty easy that what i assume most will be doing anyway to beat the reapers

#65
StarGateGod

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Clonedzero wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Killing the queen seemed... irrational. I never even looked at it as a choice - she was the only remnant of an ancient race forced into war by indoctrination, and I wasn't about to cause its extinction by pressing a single button. If it turns against me, fine, I'll deal with it right then and there.

at the time of the choice you had no idea the war was caused by indoctrination. you are breaking the role playing aspect by metagaming. stop it.

genocide si never the right answer

#66
Jagri

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Would be disappointed if the Rachni ended up becoming a liability in the up coming conflict with the Reapers. I still stand behind freeing the queen and giving her a chance. I find it funny how some of the more... Pessimistic Shepard out there attack the Council methods for handling the Rachni yet seem just as eager to commit or rather finish the genocide of the Rachni.

Like Zaeed would say "A bunch of god***m hypocritcs!"

#67
Lunatic LK47

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QwertyQwerty wrote...

Why would she? Shepard is now a hero of the Rachni Race.


Only thing that's making me iffy about the decision is I don't know, indoctrination?

#68
AtreiyaN7

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I think the rachni queen was telling tbe truth. I believe that the rachni were/are peaceful unless they're subjected to indoctrination. I'm more worried about how the whole quarian/geth sItuation turns out - heh.

#69
Akizora

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Admoniter wrote...

JoeClose wrote...
Collector base!


Personally I don't see saving or destroying the base making much of a difference. From what we've seen it seems as though EDI already data mined the bases computers. So they (most likely) have the info contained in the base, the only thing they don't have is the actual machinery used. Besides how would a intergalactic boost juice help anyone especially when it is the hands of Cerberus.

No I'm thinking something more along the lines of save a species from dying out and then getting completely blindsided by them.


No worries, maybe Omega will end up being an ancient Prothean Base like the collector base :P

#70
kglaser

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I can't bring any of my Shepards to off the queen. That's one of the few things I just can't ever do, like not giving Tali the geth data.

#71
Whatever42

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It won't have any affect on the game itself. These decisions will have zero effect on the outcome, they are there just shape the universe afterwards. Does Revan become the hero of the Republic or does Revean become Darth Revan?

#72
StarGateGod

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

It won't have any affect on the game itself. These decisions will have zero effect on the outcome, they are there just shape the universe afterwards. Does Revan become the hero of the Republic or does Revean become Darth Revan?

what?!! it will have a huge impact and army of rachni warriors will help fight the reapers

#73
MrFob

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Seriously? I'd love it. Whoever said that all paragon actions must come out just right? Not all acts of faith are rewarded and not one good dead goes unpunished :(.

Nevertheless, for the real paragons, it still was the right thing to do.

#74
GordonNoob2010

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Well, she better have bought me dinner first. She sounds like a very interesting LI.
Oh wait, you meant it figuratively.
In which case, the reaction would be calling in a favor from a buddy who lives on tuchanka.

#75
LordAnguis

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Right, here's something I htought of while reading this topic. It didn't hit me at first, until I was playing a new ME1 playthrough (Soldier/Spacer/War Hero) who makes some Renegade some Paragon choices. In ME2, the Rachni Queen's emissary informs us of the whole 'indoctrination' thing. Problem: The Rachni Queen didn't know anything about why her people did what they did in ME1. Now you can blame it on the writing. Without the complete trilogy, we can't know for sure if it's a problem with the writing. But I think the most pragmatic thing to do is ensure the Rachni can't return.
On my 'idealist' playthroughs, I'll hope, but if it turns out badly, all I'll have to say is 'lovely' in a sarcastic tone. Luckily, most of my playthroughs have some Renegade to them, if not completely. But I'm attempting a Renegade playthrough soon where it doesn't equal 'xeno-phobe' and saves the Council. (Just so I can ****** off them and Udina in ME2).
Also, for the record, I find it hilarious that people on these forums are always going on about the paragon/renegade system. In case you haven't realized it, both were meant to be so Shepard's still the good guy. The only difference is how he goes about doing things. Paragons help everyone they can and do whatever they can to be a mediator. Renegades, on the other hand, have a more pragmatic and logical viewpoint. They take what they know, investigate, and decide after hearing the thoughts from their team mates. When it comes to things like the Rachni, it's difficult because you think she's being honest. THing is, ME2 suggests she was lying to you. We'll see what happens in ME3.
Let's take a look at this whole 'morality scale' that, quite frankly, is a fan creation. We think it means a morality scale, but in truth it's just showing whether the character is a realist or an idealist.
First time it shows up: Cole on ME1. We either do a mediator's style and suggest Powell might have had something to do with the attack, or we do a simple action with the same results, but which fits the style of, say, a soldier more easily.
Going down the road, we have the warehouse workers at Fist's office: we can either say, 'Is Fist really worth dying for?' as Paragon, and 'I just killed 50 people (exageration, by the way) to get in here. What do you think I'll do to you?' Both have the same outcome, just different results.
Continuing on: Therum; we have Liara, and are confrotned by a Krogan. We have two options of trying to talk the freaking lizard down or one single option of 'get this idiot out of our way!'
Noveria: We can help out the IA agent, hand the evidence over to Anoleis, give it to the person who we originally meant to get it for, or orchestrate the death of Anoleis and the IA agent. The final option is your ultimate Renegade, which deals with two difficult people for you, but takes the longest. The first also takes the longest and is a Paragon option. The middle two are lesser choices on the same scale.
Feros: You can either kill Jong, who is being a corporate power-monger, or you can convince him via either Charm or Intimidate to help the colonists. Than you can again choose whether to use the gas grenade, or stick with what you know to be tried and tested. Shiala, you can either trust, or decide to kill due to her own actions and decision to follow Saren. Remember, this is a comparion of 'on the information available at this time'. At this point, we don't know Sovereign is anything more than a ship.
Virmire: you can either help out the STG team and your squadmate by dealing with the fliers and the guards in the building, or you can ignore the refueling station and flush the guards to the other side of the compound. THan you get to choose who to keep: Ashley, a possible LI or just your weapons chief; or Kaidan, yet again a LI or best friend, depending on your character's sex, as well as being of a higher rank and therefore more valuable in the eyes of the Alliance military. For those who romance Ashley, they'll choose her. For those who don't, it's a simple choice: rescue the person who is continually passed over for promotion, despite no fault in her own record, or choose the officer with over a dozen special commendations and a very powerful biotic ability. To me, that choice is simple: Kaidan. Also, despite her protests, Ash is definitely against Aliens, so unless you're playing a xenophobic Shepard, she's not worthy of being on your crew. Quite frankly, they should've given us the option to get rid of her once we became the commander of the Normandy. I don't ever use her, and make sure she's guarding the nuke.
Now, Mass Effect 2 is a different story, but it's still got the same basic idea. Charm or Intimidate. Charm takes a little longer, but keeps you from acting like a douche. Intimidate gives the means to either threaten or outright commit a violent act. Now the markers to perform a 'BOLD' action of either Renegade or Paragon means it's not the 'usual' one. Also, a point to be made: a 'douchebag' Shepard in LotSB would not use the Charm/Intimidate option (in red for those who don't know what that means), but rather choose the bottom option on the right hand side, which states: wound hostage.
Quite frankly, the forums are nothing more than a hive of people who are so obsessed in seeing this game as something to plan out that you forget what the entire purpose of an RPG is: to role-play. Whether someone chooses the Renegade more than the Paragon or vice versa is their decision becuase it's their role-play. I could call the Renegades a bunch of useless douche bags, and the Paragon players a bunch of sappy idiots who remind me of the 'evil Dr. Rogers' on Demolition Man. But I don't, because I play both kinds. I like them both equally. They have their good sides and bad sides. The Paragon helps a lot of people, but that may be detrimental to the final battle, especially to Earth, in Mass Effect 3. The Renegade works as quickly as possible, evaluating what can and cannot be done to ensure the best result. This can be a good thing, but it may end in the deaths of squadmates in ME2 and possibly ME3.
In regards to Revya's comment about the whole 'evil bug race cliche': I know what you mean. Every time I fight the Rachni, I'm reminded of Starship Troopers.