38 réponses à ce sujet

[Saephy]

Right, so this is the first post I´m writing on these boards, but I am aware that "Anders blowing up the chantry" is already hotly debated, my post isn`t about his actions per se.

I would like to state that although the game has its pros and cons, I´ve enjoyed it greatly, and as usual been captivated by the world and the characters Bioware has provided, however I was curious to know if there were a lot of other people who were also profoundly disappointed with the lack of conversation options and expression of responses presented in this pivotal moment or if I have managed to miss something vital on all my playthroughs so far.

If it has been discussed elsewhere before, I apologize in advance.
 
Basically what bothers me is that after he blows up the chantry and Hawke needs to decide what to do with him, Hawke gets very little to say about it. The "conversation" is more or less one-sided.

You have three options, tell him to come with you, let him go or kill him, fair enough.
If you tell him to come with you (assuming you side with the mages), Hawke says "Come with, let´s go", he goes "Great!" and off you scoot to the Gallows, where he will give you a brief speech thanking you for supporting you, with only a slight variation if you romanced him.
Never is Hawke given the opportunity to say anything about what he did, not with the chantry and killing the grand cleric (Hawke got to say something briefy about that earlier), but about lying to Hawke, manipulating Hawke, betraying Hawke and possibly ****ting all over everything Hawke has worked for for the better part of a decade.
 
Telling him to "Just go", will have him thanking you for his life then heading off, only to reappear in the Gallows with more or less the same speech as if he came with you, that is if you side with the mages.
If you tell him to go and side with the templars, he will reappear in the templar hall, giving you an even briefer speech, again with no opportunity for Hawke to actually say anything worthwhile, and you will have to slay him without much aplomb.
 
Killing him is actually even worse in this regard, if you choose to kill him right there, then it´s just "off with their heads!" - the end.
 
I guess I just felt this left a lot to be desired in terms of role-playing options and substance, it´s fine that you cannot change his mind (it´s too late anyway), it´s fine he apparently feels there´s nothing more to be said, but personally I still think Hawke should be able to say something, even if he has nothing to say in return.
After all, Anders could potentially be Hawkes lover, best friend, greatest rival, throughout the most part of a decade, depending on what kind of Hawke you are playing one would think Hawke might want to have some words before deciding his doom, even if he is Anders no longer and only that "stick-in-the-mud".
 
I`m not saying you should have more or less options of how to deal with him, there aren`t any really, only that it would have been nice to have some more substance to the options actually there, this being the climax of the game and all or did I miss something?
 
 This post got to be a bit longer than originally intended, thanks for reading to those that stuck through.

[Miss Greyjoy]

I agree- I think this scene needed something. Particularly, if Hawke decides to kill Anders, there should have been a few dialogue choices:

1. You must pay for what you've done. (default) *stab*
2. I should have done this YEARS ago, you big jerk! *stab*
3. I'm sorry, Anders. I wish it didn't have to end this way. *stab*

It was just terrible the way to was handled. IMO, anyway. He was pretty important as a character- I think it needed a few more lines.

Modifié par Miss Greyjoy, 03 avril 2011 - 07:32 .

[Legbiter]

Murder knife said it all for my Hawke.

[TJPags]

Agreed. IMO, a lot of the conversation left a lot to be desired, but this is a good example.

As you say, noplace does Hawke get to take Anders to task for lying to him, going behind his back, not trusting him with the truth, using him, etc. From Hawke's POV, it's basically "wow, Chantry blew up, huh?" "Oh, you did that Anders?" "Let's go" or "Get out of here" or "die".

My Hawke was quite pissed, and really wanted to discuss that with Anders before killing him. The whole standing there while Anders gives his speech didn't do it for me.

[fantasypisces]

I agree, maybe it's a problem with the wheel, maybe it's not, but there were many instances where Hawke's reaction was very very short and mild, when all I want is a little freaking exposition.

Anders is a perfect example, after It happened I was nervously anticipating the dialogue choices, and I got jack. I literally *blinked* and stared.

The crazy RPGer I am I ended up running through a whole conversation in my head. It involved a few punches, a lot of screaming, but no murder knife.

[highcastle]

I imagine with the templars about to march on the mages there isn't a whole lot time for anyone to make grand speeches right now. At least in my head I can imagine Hawke having a long conversation with Anders about this after the situation is resolved, but for the moment the most important things is to save the mages (or annul the mages if Hawke sides with the templars).

Hawke has the opportunity to call Anders out for what he did, to call him a murderer, etc. immediately following the Chantry's destruction. It's not like those options are missing completely. I don't mind the writers leaving some things unsaid, as it allows us the flexibility to imagine how our Hawkes would actually respond when things settle down enough to say them.

[AndreaDraco]

Not surprisingly, I agree with highcastle

While it's true that the game copuld have provided a tad more options, especially for Hawke romancing Anders, but it's also true that the moment is so hectic that there's little time to talk. I will probably replay the last part fo the game once some dialogue bugs in Act 3 get fixed, but I'm pretty content on how it played out the first time. My Hawke was shocked and he told Anders so, and - more importantly - he told him that he should have confided in him, which was the thing I really wanted to say.

The final dialogue at the Gallows is also very brief, but I can imagine hours and hours of conversation after defeating Meredith, when Hawke and very companion fled on the hills outside Kirkwall. Like Varric said in the end, Anders was the only one to remain with Hawke and I can see my Mage Hawke discussing the hot topic to no end

[Cutlass Jack]

Legbiter wrote...

Murder knife said it all for my Hawke.

Exactly. There was little else to say quite honestly.

[ISnowdropI]

Have to agree with you on there, I let Anders live because I felt like I just couldn't kill him, but when I saw him with the rest of my companions at the end, I didn't want to or expect myself to be friendly towards him.

It seems if you don't kill him, it is assumed that you have forgiven him. But I wanted to say you IDIOT, cold shoulder him and drag him to fight with me to fix this mess.

[Stinkface27]

I'm only now on my second play-through, but from my first one (pro-mage, didn't kill Anders), I seem to remember scolding him a bit before speaking to him individually/telling him to come with me. But I definitely understand the frustration. I wish there was much more, especially considering what an important character Anders is/was and what an important role he played. Speaking to him momentarily or snuffing him out without so much as a farewell seems to cheapen him and the situation.

Given the urgency of the situation, I guess I can understand why there wasn't more of a ceremony about it, but it still leaves me a bit disappointed. I assumed after the battle we would speak about, with him and the other party members..but alas..

[Sesshomaru47]

Legbiter wrote...

Murder knife said it all for my Hawke.

Same, though "you're a git Anders" stab would have been better.

[CloudOfShadows]

Well. You have other quests where you can basically choose to between two options that mean the same, but honestly? I can't recall many Bioware games where you have main decisions made with different paraphrases. That's just not Bioware, never has been.

You may want to buy Planescape: Torment - if that's what you're looking for - that game even gives you the opportunity to say the same line once with (Truth) and once with (Lie) in front of it.

[Saephy]

I understand, and agree that there should be things left unsaid and I also see how one is pressed for time as it is, all I meant was I would have appreciated a little more input from Hawke in that moment, not having a grand speech or anything, just something to indicate that this decision was actually one that mattered to Hawke on a personal level.
Something that indicates that Anders matters more to Hawke than some random bandit or quest-giver you talk to/kill/save in the game. 
The "last stand" speech doesn`t really offer this either, if romanced, Anders will say he should have trusted you and asks you to run away with him, to which you may reply that "yes, let´s be fugitives together!" or "no, I know I will never be the most important thing in your life".
If not romanced, you get the option of letting him know whether or not you will be fighting his war with or without him.

I would have liked to have an option where you actually get to express something else than complete and utter compliance at this point, no big speech needed, just an option that doesn`t seem to automatically disregard that Hawke may not fully approve of what has transpired on a personal level.
As you say, the conversation itself is better saved for the imagination, however the current options seem to indicate Hawke either doesn`t care at all or have completely forgotten all about it, which sets a rather poor precedent for imagining them having a conversation about how Hawke may not really appreciate being lied to, used and betrayed, even by people he/she loves/cares for/respects.

[_Aine_]

I wanted the option to back out of murdering him once he makes it clear he is pleased as punch he is going to be a martyr. I want to turn him tranquil because that would be the worst end for him, in his mind. Pass him in Hightown selling elfroots and sounding empty and devoid of any sense of anything let alone justice.  Perhaps that girl of mine was a bit cruel.  

Modifié par shantisands, 04 avril 2011 - 03:32 .

[frylock23]

I wanted to beg Meredith to take him and do with him as she liked so long as she left the Circle itself alone.

[Jean]

www.youtube.com/watch

There is that line. Which is bugged. As is the entire rivalmance dialogue from the point he blows the chantry forward.

EDIT

www.youtube.com/watch

Here are some of the bugged bits now.

Modifié par Batteries, 04 avril 2011 - 04:25 .

[Hellosanta]

something like this ..

Edit: 'd

Modifié par Hellosanta, 04 avril 2011 - 04:21 .

[metalfenix]

I finished for the first time today, with a mage, and with anders romanced (obviously I sided with the mages), but it's really frustrating, I don't know how hawke doesn't say anything about being lied to and used in the justice quest.

Maybe what he did is justified in the long run (and I'm the first anti-chantry and anti-templars since Origins, in fact my main history is with my mage warden, and my mage hawke)...but not with me.. he literally used hawke to his own ends..

So I let the knife speak for me.

But I agree with most people here, that moment needed more dialog choices, the ones we had simply sucked, specially if you romanced him.

Modifié par metalfenix, 04 avril 2011 - 06:40 .

[wildannie]

I agree, I wish there was an 'angry rant' icon that could set hawke off on a... well, angry rant.

[Qilune]

I wanted to be mad at Anders. I really did. But when we were waiting for the templars with Orsino and the other mages, he started talking about making the world safer for our children and I turned into goo with the image of baby hawkelets running through my mind--and the prospect of making them. I was like, "Gotta kill Meredith--oops, Orsino, too--- fast so I can make babies with Anders!"

[Foolsfolly]

I wanted to tranquil him.

Seems appropriate and hilarious. Then he can do all my runecrafting when Sandal leaves.

So, you know, he's useful. And he does match very well with the furniture at the mansion, all in all he'd be a great feature standing next to the fireplace keeping an eye on any letters for me and all.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 04 avril 2011 - 07:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

I felt the last Act was rushed compared to the first two.

[NaclynE]

My biggest ****** is doing the "JUSTICE" mission or not. On my second playthrough I didn't do it and he still blew up the chantry. What gives? There should of been some sort of differant outcome for not doing the mission at all. The way I look at it is if you do the "JUSTICE" mission he builds the bomb and blows up the chantry. If you don't do the "JUSTICE" mission there should be a differant outcome where the chantry does get involved in the mage/templar dispute. I find that lame.

[tanuki]

*sigh* I desperately needed Shepard's punch in case of letting Anders live. Few times preferably.

[ReallyRue]

^ I agree. I wanted the option to bring him along, but without some instant forgiveness thing (like with punching him), to tell him to go but in a 'get out of my sight and live with the guilt' way, and to kill him after giving an impassioned little speech.
I also would have liked more of a response from Hawke about her role in this. Like an 'Oh Maker, helping you has made me responsible for all this death' thing. Considering how often bad things happen to Hawke, you'd thing she'd be a touch more angered about Anders' dragging her into this blindly.