38 réponses à ce sujet

[Saephy]

Thanks for all the replies, they`ve made me think more about why I felt so shafted in this scene first time I played it.
I already knew that of course one cannot include every possible response a player might want to give, and as a role playing game it should always allow for people to use their own imaginations, normally players will then choose the option that resembles what they would want their character to say the most, then let their imaginations do the rest (that´s how it is for me anyway) and this is a lot of the fun.
What I´ve realized is that depending on what Hawke you play it´s preferable to say "come with me" or "get out of here" and then just ignore the "last stand" speech afterwards or Anders standing there altogether, as this allows you to actually imagine some outcomes after the whole mess is over with.

So it´s really not the decision on his fate alone, but rather the combination of the decision and the subsequent "last stand" speech that seems so jarring to me.
I still wish they had spent a little more on this sequence though, as currently it presents a rather peculiar combination of open-ended flexibility and rigid assumption, and for me as a player this was the only decision that I actually found difficult for some of my Hawkes to make, it is probably easier with Hawkes that either don`t give a toss about Anders, dislike him outright or are as devoted and zealous as he/that parasite he has is, will have to run a few more of those.
It is also the end-game, the big climax, the closing act and to me mattered more than a whole lot of the other scenes put together, can`t beat a strong finish and all that.

[Plaintiff]

It is a bit nonsensical. It's like... I've been romancing Anders for years and I've made no secret of my sheer hatred of the Chantry, why would he feel the need to hide this from me? If he asked me, I would've gladly just walked right up to Meredith or Elthina and stabbed them in the neck.

[LobselVith8]

Saephy wrote...

I`m not saying you should have more or less options of how to deal with him, there aren`t any really, only that it would have been nice to have some more substance to the options actually there, this being the climax of the game and all or did I miss something?

I agree. You'd imagine that destroying the Kirkwall Chantry and killing Grand Cleric Elthina would give you more dialogue options to express how you feel, but I think part of the problem with the dialogue options is that it states one thing and says something else entirely.

[Greta13]

Qilune wrote...

I wanted to be mad at Anders. I really did. But when we were waiting for the templars with Orsino and the other mages, he started talking about making the world safer for our children and I turned into goo with the image of baby hawkelets running through my mind--and the prospect of making them. I was like, "Gotta kill Meredith--oops, Orsino, too--- fast so I can make babies with Anders!"

Lol!!

[chq]

All the Anders dialogue is completely fubar'd. There are supposed to rivalry options that currently aren't accessible in game, but I still don't like that the friendship ending is inescapably "I totally agree with you, bro, let's run off and kill templars/have babies!" in the last conversation at the Gallows.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I wanted to punch him in the face and then stab him to death.

Although I have to ask, is that dialogue about Vengeance supposed to be in the game or is it cut? Because it's the polar opposite of what he seems to think from what I saw of him. He told me that it wasn't Vengeance that made him do it, it was all him and he's proud of it. Is that because he was my friend? Is he supposed to be remorseful of terrorism if you are his rival?

Anyway, I was a Hawke who constantly kept trying to find a compromise in most situations. So even though he was a close friend my only reaction to him undoing all my efforts was almost exactly like this:

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 avril 2011 - 08:31 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I wanted to punch him in the face and then stab him to death.

Although I have to ask, is that dialogue about Vengeance supposed to be in the game or is it cut? Because it's the polar opposite of what he seems to think from what I saw of him. He told me that it wasn't Vengeance that made him do it, it was all him and he's proud of it. Is that because he was my friend? Is he supposed to be remorseful of terrorism if you are his rival?

Anyway, I was a Hawke who constantly kept trying to find a compromise in most situations. So even though he was a close friend my only reaction to him undoing all my efforts was almost exactly like this:

Except that your Hawke, any other Hawkes trying to find a compromise, and especially Elthina are destined to fail and fail hard.  He's right: there is no compromise.  There is absolutely zero hope of the situation in Kirkwall ending any other way than a massive bloodbath.  One side has a paranoid zealot being driven even more paranoid by an ancient dwarven relic of evil and the other side is literally locked for life in the epicenter of all demonic influence on Thedas.  While Hawke doesn't know the former and only has sketchy ideas on the latter (unless you didn't get even a few Enigma of Kirkwalls) it's pretty clear that talking isn't going to solve Kirkwall's ills.

I don't know why so many people are on the compromise bandwagon.  It was pretty clear that Kirkwall is a magical Chernobyl.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's not necessarily true. Admittedly something probably had to change by force, but Anders terrorism ensure that it was going to be much worse than it had to be. The artifact probably ensured that Meredith would be a problem but if it wasn't for Anders' murderous treachery there might have been a way to stop the Templar/Mage conflict before it got out of hand.

The fact is he is about as much a zealot as she is, and starting a world war like he did, requires zealots on both sides. The only reason that there was no compromise is that Anders and Meredith made sure of it. Had one or both of them not been so fanatical then, there could have been a way for cooler heads to prevail. Had Thrask and Cullen been in command then I doubt any of it would have happened, even if Anders had destroyed the Chantry and had Anders not destroyed the Chantry i suspect Meredith's insanity would have turned even the loyal Templars against her.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That's not necessarily true. Admittedly something probably had to change by force, but Anders terrorism ensure that it was going to be much worse than it had to be. The artifact probably ensured that Meredith would be a problem but if it wasn't for Anders' murderous treachery there might have been a way to stop the Templar/Mage conflict before it got out of hand.

Oh I'd love to hear how that'd work.  We know that 1) Meredith was calling for the Right of Annulment before Anders' non-terrorist attack on the Chantry.  2) Meredith refused the Tranquil Solution before the idol had years to drive her nutty, indicating that it was the idol's effects had likely driven her to calling for the RoA.  3) Elthina said no to the RoA and Meredith sent word to the Divine asking for it there instead.  4) Leliana, shown as very opposed to the templars' extremist methods in DAO, shows up afterwards having been sent from the Divine to warn of extreme measures likely being taken against Kirkwall due a mage rebellion.  This indicates that Meredith has successfully convinced the Divine that the situation is out of control.  5) Without a Grand Cleric, Meredith alone has sole say over the Right of Annulment.  Grand Cleric Elthina is an old woman in an age where medical care is virtually non-existant.

This was going to happen.  That's all there is to it.  Anders sped up what was inevitable, he did not make it the inevitable.  Diplomacy was not going to work.  You'd have better luck getting a peaceful solution to the constant conflicts in the middle east; at least they're not being driven mad by demons and God only knows what evil the lyrium idol was.

The fact is he is about as much a zealot as she is, and starting a world war like he did, requires zealots on both sides. The only reason that there was no compromise is that Anders and Meredith made sure of it. Had one or both of them not been so fanatical then, there could have been a way for cooler heads to prevail. Had Thrask and Cullen been in command then I doubt any of it would have happened, even if Anders had destroyed the Chantry and had Anders not destroyed the Chantry i suspect Meredith's insanity would have turned even the loyal Templars against her.

It's simply hilarious to me that people still tout Cullen as a good guy.  He's nice to the main character, other than that he's the same extremist psychopath that Greigor told to stuff a sock in it back in DAO.  Thrask, Keran, and maybe Samson are the only named templars in Kirkwall that seem to have any interest in protecting the mages as well as the public.  Read his codex sometime.  The reason he's Knight-Captain isn't because he's an awesome warrior or anything, it's because Meredith was endeared to the fact he was nearly as much as a fanatic as she is.

Meredith's insanity did turn the loyal templars against her.  That's what the Best Served Cold quest is.  There was a legitimate group of templars wanting to overthrow her but Grace manipulates them into trying to kill Hawke as revenge for Decimus.  So Hawke wiped out the templars who think she's off her rocker.  Good luck with the templars not putting up with her insanity after that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...

Oh I'd love to hear how that'd work.  We know that 1) Meredith was calling for the Right of Annulment before Anders' non-terrorist attack on the Chantry. 

First of all. If destroying a huge building with lots of innocent people in it isn't terrorism then nothing is.

Secondly, Meredith called for the Right of Anulment when? Where exactly was that? The whole reason she called for it was a response to Anders act.

Rifneno wrote...
2) Meredith refused the Tranquil Solution before the idol had years to drive her nutty, indicating that it was the idol's effects had likely driven her to calling for the RoA. 

Yes and that just implies that removing Meredith from the equasion would have solved the problem.

Rifneno wrote...
3)Elthina said no to the RoA and Meredith sent word to the Divine asking for it there instead.  4) Leliana, shown as very opposed to the templars' extremist methods in DAO, shows up afterwards having been sent from the Divine to warn of extreme measures likely being taken against Kirkwall due a mage rebellion.  This indicates that Meredith has successfully convinced the Divine that the situation is out of control.  

It's not exactly a surprise the Chantry would send someone. Meredith or no Meredith, a potential mage rebellion is a serious issue. That doen't mean the situation was out of control yet.

Rifneno wrote...
5) Without a Grand Cleric, Meredith alone has sole say over the Right of Annulment.  Grand Cleric Elthina is an old woman in an age where medical care is virtually non-existant.

They also live in an age of magical healing. Even if Meredith outlasted Elthina in her post (which is hardly a certainty), she doesn't permanently inherit her authority. The Divine will still apoint a new Grand Cleric.

Rifneno wrote...

It's simply hilarious to me that people still tout Cullen as a good guy.  He's nice to the main character, other than that he's the same extremist psychopath that Greigor told to stuff a sock in it back in DAO.  Thrask, Keran, and maybe Samson are the only named templars in Kirkwall that seem to have any interest in protecting the mages as well as the public.  Read his codex sometime.  The reason he's Knight-Captain isn't because he's an awesome warrior or anything, it's because Meredith was endeared to the fact he was nearly as much as a fanatic as she is.

Yes I read that Codex. I also listened to the things he had to say. Cullen's opinon on mages is harsher than Thrask's or Greigor's but he's still interested in protecting the public. And that doesn't mean he'd follow Meredith to the depth of insanity she sank to. He already has severe doubts about her path in Act 3. Anders' plan was hinged upon the idea that Meredith was so mad, she would destroy the Circle based on an outsiders act. To say Cullen would follow the same line of thinking is a stretch. If Meredith had not been so far gone or had somone saner been in command they might well have simply exectued the guilty party and been done with it.

Rifneno wrote...

Meredith's insanity did turn the loyal templars against her.  That's what the Best Served Cold quest is.  There was a legitimate group of templars wanting to overthrow her but Grace manipulates them into trying to kill Hawke as revenge for Decimus.  So Hawke wiped out the templars who think she's off her rocker.  Good luck with the templars not putting up with her insanity after that.

And when she confronted the Champion in the Gallows all the remaining Templars abandoned her.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 avril 2011 - 12:30 .

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

Sorry if I missed it but if you help Anders find the disgusting stuff in the sewers and then get the dragon stuff from the bone pit you get a conversation option where you can challenge Anders as to what he is up to when he asks you to go to the Chantry and distract the Grand Cleric. My version of this ended with my Hawke saying something like "I wont forget you blackmailed me into this". This prevents him blowing up the Chantry but still killing Elthina.

That being said my rant about the scene with Anders is morethat if you don't kill him Sebastian is going to attack Kirkwall!!!!! He is all high and mighty about the Grand Cleric and innocents being killed yet he is going to come back with an army and attack Kirkwall and kill more innocents just to chase down Anders if you let him live!!! I have played through 3 times now and only once killed Anders mainly because i didn't want the chance that he may then not appear in DLC etc... That's why I would have preferred a better ending to this specch or that he just disappeared after the explosion unless of course you romanced him.

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

First of all. If destroying a huge building with lots of innocent people in it isn't terrorism then nothing is.

Innocent?  What is "innocent" exactly?  Do you actually believe that countless innocents weren't killed by both sides in virtually every war ever fought?  Or do you think that the Chantry letting its templars commit atrocities for who knows how long doesn't qualify them as a legitimate target?  Maybe that because Anders went out and did it himself rather than sit behind a desk an order as a politician would do, that it's somehow different?  The Chantry is directly in charge of the templars.  The templars are abusing and oppressing mages.  A mage attacking the Chantry is not attacking "innocent" people.  It is not "terrorism" anymore than the way the templars flaunt forcibly tranquilled mages to kowtow mages into submission.

Secondly, Meredith called for the Right of Anulment when? Where exactly was that? The whole reason she called for it was a response to Anders act.

If Karras is alive in Act III, talk to him in the Gallows.  He'll tell you that Meredith sent to Val Royeaux for the Right of Annulment.  Since the Grand Cleric is the one to authorize it usually, this clearly indicates that Meredith asked her, she said no, and Meredith is trying to go over her head.

Yes and that just implies that removing Meredith from the equasion would have solved the problem.

Sure, easy as pie!  Why didn't we think of that when we went to Afghanistan?  We could've just killed bin Laden and removed the problem!  How did we miss something so simple?!

It's not exactly a surprise the Chantry would send someone. Meredith or no Meredith, a potential mage rebellion is a serious issue. That doen't mean the situation was out of control yet.

The mage rebellion is because of Meredith and her ilk.  They're sick of being forcibly tranquilled, raped, and God knows what else.  Either Meredith lied to Val Royeaux and they bought her lies hook, line, and sinker or they simply don't care what their templars do, just what the mages do.  The end result is the same: Kirkwall is a ticking time bomb.  It could actually be worse than a mage-templar battle, Leliana specifically tells you that an exalted march on Kirkwall is likely.

They also live in an age of magical healing. Even if Meredith outlasted Elthina in her post (which is hardly a certainty), she doesn't permanently inherit her authority. The Divine will still apoint a new Grand Cleric.

She's mad with paranoia, she'll take the first chance she gets.  It likely takes time to appoint a new GC.  It takes Meredith all of 7 seconds to call for the RoA.  She didn't even know for certain that the GC was in the Chantry at the time.  She pounced on her first opportunity.

Yes I read that Codex. I also listened to the things he had to say. Cullen's opinon on mages is harsher than Thrask's or Greigor's but he's still interested in protecting the public. And that doesn't mean he'd follow Meredith to the depth of insanity she sank to. He already has severe doubts about her path in Act 3. Anders' plan was hinged upon the idea that Meredith was so mad, she would destroy the Circle based on an outsiders act. To say Cullen would follow the same line of thinking is a stretch. If Meredith had not been so far gone or had somone saner been in command they might well have simply exectued the guilty party and been done with it.

"Mages aren't people like you and I!" - Cullen

Would he have called for the RoA because of one apostate?  Maybe not.  Would the situation simply defuse if he took over?  Hell no.

And when she confronted the Champion in the Gallows all the remaining Templars abandoned her.

Cullen turned on her (and Carver if there).  The rest of the templars didn't turn on her, she turned on them.  And they didn't seem too interested in actively opposing her when she starts battling Cullen and Hawke's group.

Modifié par Rifneno, 15 avril 2011 - 01:02 .

[Whailor]

That's just something what wasn't done very well. Just like the "power" thing - game was marketed with a slogan "Raise to power, by any means necessary" and yet this "power" is nowhere to be seen. Only real tangible power would have been to become a viscount and the only time you "become one" is in Varric's speech. Nowhere in the game is shown the coronation ceremony and so on, like DA: O had at the end. Rushed thing.

Frankly it seems that so many choices in DA2 are simply made for the player. No matter if you agree to something or not, do something or not, the outcome is still the same. Decide not to help Anders/Justice with collecting sulfur from caves and crap from sewers? No matter your decision, end result is made for you. Decide to leave Gascard alive in hopes to later find the murderer quicker? No matter, the end result is already decided for you. And so on, and so on. It would have been easier to make the game where you start it, then the game presents you with the option "is your char male or female", then shows the companions with text "click on a companion or companions you want to be romantically involved with", then "click here or there to side with mages or templars" and after that, simply play some movies throughout the game showing the stuff what is already decided for you and then give a message "final save with 'your choices' has been created for you". Or maybe this will be in DA3 if the trend continues.

Thus I wasn't too surprised at that dialogue, at least not when I played through with other classes later. But during first time it felt too bland as well, like there are questions you cannot ask or gets answers to, things you cannot do or choices you could decide on. So just stab and be done with it, this Anders isn't the Anders I've become to know in Awakening anyway.

Modifié par Whailor, 15 avril 2011 - 03:00 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rifneno wrote...


Innocent?  What is "innocent" exactly?  Do you actually believe that countless innocents weren't killed by both sides in virtually every war ever fought?  Or do you think that the Chantry letting its templars commit atrocities for who knows how long doesn't qualify them as a legitimate target?  Maybe that because Anders went out and did it himself rather than sit behind a desk an order as a politician would do, that it's somehow different?  The Chantry is directly in charge of the templars.  The templars are abusing and oppressing mages.  A mage attacking the Chantry is not attacking "innocent" people.  It is not "terrorism" anymore than the way the templars flaunt forcibly tranquilled mages to kowtow mages into submission.

What crime did any of the people in that Chantry do to mages in Kirkwall? Unless you think they are all guilty by association simply by virture of being invovled Chantry, which is ridiculous. A Chantry is a house of worship and thus a place where civilians go. If you think that everyone who believes in the Chant of Light deserves to be murdered then there really isn't any point in contiuning the discussion because we obviously have a completely  different basis for each of our arguments. Anders' goal of bringing down the entire Chantry is ridiculous because it's such an incredibly broad instituion that he might as well try to free mages by waging war against all of humanity. There's more to the templars than the ones that abuse and illegally tranquil mages, and there are more to the Chantry than just the templars. If he thinks they are all legitimate targets that makes him a terrorist.

Rifneno wrote...
Sure, easy as pie!  Why didn't we think of that when we went to Afghanistan?  We could've just killed bin Laden and removed the problem!  How did we miss something so simple?!

Thrasks mentions that the problems between Templars and Mages began with Meredith's rise to power. The problems in Afghanistan are far more deep rooted than that.

Rifneno wrote...

She's mad with paranoia, she'll take the first chance she gets.  It likely takes time to appoint a new GC.  It takes Meredith all of 7 seconds to call for the RoA.  She didn't even know for certain that the GC was in the Chantry at the time.  She pounced on her first opportunity.

That's where Elthina almost always is, isn't she? Why would she not believe that she'd been killed? She began the Right of Anulment during a crisis situation after a catastophic event. The replacement of the Grand Cleric would not have been one.

Rifneno wrote...
Cullen turned on her (and Carver if there).  The rest of the templars didn't turn on her, she turned on them.  And they didn't seem too interested in actively opposing her when she starts battling Cullen and Hawke's group.

The end result is still the same. The templars abandoned her. It would have happened sooner or later.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 15 avril 2011 - 08:07 .