26 réponses à ce sujet

[Pyrate_d]

 Why isn't the Hawke family given more exposition?

This bothered me from the first few minutes of the game. The story begins in some weird, hellish wasteland (which I still don't understand, where are they?). All you learn about Lothering is from vague references later on.

I can't help but think that a big opportunity was missed here. If the game opened in Lothering, you would get a chance to see where the Hawke family actually live--what they did, etc. It would personally involve you with the characters that you're clearly supposed to care about.

This isn't groundbreaking stuff. It seems like a simple way in which the opening of the game could have been a lot stronger. Or am I missing something? Is there a big advantage to opening the game the way they did?

[Lithuasil]

Hawke has a different background, depending on the class you pick, and three different Origins weren't in it, when EA came around waving with the release schedule.

[Torax]

Lets people go, oh I was there once? Even if you don't really start in Lothering. You are apparently outside it somewhere.

[Lord Gremlin]

On a bright side Bioware now knows that removing origin story was a bad idea.
You're right, they missed the part where player creates his character and develops empathy with him/her.
It's nothing new. In Yakuza 3 for example you run orphanage and care for kids for several hours of gameplay. And because of this you really feel bad when orphanage is ruined and really hate bastards who did that. Hell, forget Yakuza, DAO did that!

[Pyrate_d]

Lithuasil wrote...

Hawke has a different background, depending on the class you pick, and three different Origins weren't in it, when EA came around waving with the release schedule.

They could have just as easily made it a single background (warrior/rogue Hawke stay home!), which would have bothered me a lot less than no background at all.

Torax wrote...

Lets people go, oh I was there once? Even if you don't really start in Lothering. You are apparently outside it somewhere.

The game is about storytelling, but they're trying to force the player to make up their own story? I don't buy it.

As for starting outside of Lothering, give me a break. You start in a desolate, nightmarish hell. 

Since someone brought up Origins, wouldn't a Lothering opening be a great tie in? You could see characters who you met in DAO, and find out what happens to them (did they get out in time or die?). Honestly, for a game that wants to be dark and gritty, making characters choose between abandoning their home and dying would be a pretty good opening. I just can't understand what happened.

Modifié par Pyrate_d, 03 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[TJPags]

Well, since Rogue Hawke or Warrior Hawke were at Ostagar, they wouldn't have been in Lothering long. Carver was at Ostagar too. Would have been hard to spend a lot of time in Lothering in those circumstances.

And did we really need to see them running out of their house?

Opportunity missed, maybe. But given the Hawke at Ostagar scenario, wouldn't have worked, IMO.

[The Angry One]

Well technically most JRPGs of the 90's did that.
You know, the "oh no, my beloved peasant village!" trope.

Fallout 3 also tried to do that but failed miserably by making Vault 101 an uninteresting den of jerks.

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...



On a bright side Bioware now knows that removing origin story was a bad idea.
You're right, they missed the part where player creates his character and develops empathy with him/her.
It's nothing new. In Yakuza 3 for example you run orphanage and care for kids for several hours of gameplay. And because of this you really feel bad when orphanage is ruined and really hate bastards who did that. Hell, forget Yakuza, DAO did that!

Too bad they abandoned the concept of "hero with emotions and comprehensible goals" the second you set foot into ostagar   

I still hope they do this with DA3 though, putting you in the position of either a circle mage, or someone who's **** gets utterly ruined by apostates, to get you into a suitably fanatical mindset.

[Torax]

Pyrate_d wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Hawke has a different background, depending on the class you pick, and three different Origins weren't in it, when EA came around waving with the release schedule.

They could have just as easily made it a single background (warrior/rogue Hawke stay home!), which would have bothered me a lot less than no background at all.

Torax wrote...

Lets people go, oh I was there once? Even if you don't really start in Lothering. You are apparently outside it somewhere.

The game is about storytelling, but they're trying to force the player to make up their own story? I don't buy it.

As for starting outside of Lothering, give me a break. You start in a desolate, nightmarish hell. 

The story is mostly about Kirkwall and Hawke's life being there. Act 1 is already long as hell. You want the Prologue to be even longer? Caring more about Lothering won't help the fact that the Darkspawn Army basically destroys the place. All they did was moved it along faster. Honestly I don't think I needed the Prologue to be longer personally. Specially if all you would be getting is the same npcs you saw in Origins. If I wanted that I'd just play Origins.

Edited cause I don't want the prologue to be longer.

Modifié par Torax, 03 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[Pyrate_d]

TJPags wrote...

Well, since Rogue Hawke or Warrior Hawke were at Ostagar, they wouldn't have been in Lothering long. Carver was at Ostagar too. Would have been hard to spend a lot of time in Lothering in those circumstances.

And did we really need to see them running out of their house?

Opportunity missed, maybe. But given the Hawke at Ostagar scenario, wouldn't have worked, IMO.

I'm talking about them changing one aspect of the game, so why not change another? Carver could have been at Ostagar with the player character staying home for whatever reason.

Torax wrote...

The story is mostly about Kirkwall and Hawke's life being there. Act 1 is already long as hell. You want the Prologue to be even longer? Caring more about Lothering won't help the fact that the Darkspawn Army basically destroys the place. All they did was moved it along faster. Honestly I don't think I needed the Prologue to be faster personally. Specially if all you would be getting is the same npcs you saw in Origins. If I wanted that I'd just play Origins.

Maybe when you read a story you don't care where the characters come from and what motivates them. I think you're unusal in that regard. For me, it's extremely important.

I've tried to not bring DAO into this because it has NOTHING to do with DAO. It's just common sense.

Modifié par Pyrate_d, 03 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[Kijin]

The game doesn't start in Lothering primarily because the player is already well acquainted with Lothering, assuming they played through Dragon Age: Origins. More importantly, the game is being told through the perspective of Verric; we can assume that Hawke did not mention his time in Lothering, as there was not much to tell. Hawke only told Varric the interesting parts of the story - namely, when they were running from the Darkspawn as the village was under attack.

Or you could go with the more realistic explanation - that being, they were rushed for time.

[Torax]

Carver and the Player would be at Ostagar for the battle. Or the Player and Bethany are at home cause they are both mages. Still would consume time and just feel like pointless cameos. Maybe nice but why even waste showing it to new players if it is just going away in 5 minutes? They were already planning to do that to you with one of your Siblings. Why do it with more areas and scenes in the prologue?

[Pyrate_d]

Torax wrote...
Carver and the Player would be at Ostagar for the battle. Or the Player and Bethany are at home cause they are both mages. Still would consume time and just feel like pointless cameos. Maybe nice but why even waste showing it to new players if it is just going away in 5 minutes? They were already planning to do that to you with one of your Siblings. Why do it with more areas and scenes in the prologue?

I've already addressed the first point twice now. 

As for your general confusion about the value of exposition, I don't really know what to say. You apparently think that developing characters you're supposed to care about is a waste of time. Cherish your opinions, I always say.

[Ensgnblack]

There are 2 reasons:

1. The game begins in medias res, you are superhuman as Varric tells the story.   Piddling around  Lothering would not be the heroic begining BW sought.

2.  Similarly: Varric  is telling this story, why would he begin it with Hawke  taking out the garbage on a normal Wednesday?  This story is about Hawke's impact on Kirkwall.   He came to be in Kirkwall  on the fateful day  that his family fled lothering, so  that is where the game begins

[Pyrate_d]

Ensgnblack wrote...

1. The game begins in medias res, you are superhuman as Varric tells the story.   Piddling around  Lothering would not be the heroic begining BW sought.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. In media res is SUPER COOL, but you generally want to go back before the opening. To use a famous example, the Aeneid begins in media res, but then the story backs up to tell how we got to the opening. 

If Bioware was intent on starting a game like this, there was nothing preventing them from going back. 

2.  Similarly: Varric  is telling this story, why would he begin it with Hawke  taking out the garbage on a normal Wednesday?  This story is about Hawke's impact on Kirkwall.   He came to be in Kirkwall  on the fateful day  that his family fled lothering, so  that is where the game begins

The interrogator says TELL ME EVERYTHING. I can definitely see why she would be interested in Hawke's origins--they could be very important clues in tracking him/her down.

[TJPags]

Pyrate_d wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, since Rogue Hawke or Warrior Hawke were at Ostagar, they wouldn't have been in Lothering long. Carver was at Ostagar too. Would have been hard to spend a lot of time in Lothering in those circumstances.

And did we really need to see them running out of their house?

Opportunity missed, maybe. But given the Hawke at Ostagar scenario, wouldn't have worked, IMO.

I'm talking about them changing one aspect of the game, so why not change another? Carver could have been at Ostagar with the player character staying home for whatever reason.

Torax wrote...

The story is mostly about Kirkwall and Hawke's life being there. Act 1 is already long as hell. You want the Prologue to be even longer? Caring more about Lothering won't help the fact that the Darkspawn Army basically destroys the place. All they did was moved it along faster. Honestly I don't think I needed the Prologue to be faster personally. Specially if all you would be getting is the same npcs you saw in Origins. If I wanted that I'd just play Origins.

Maybe when you read a story you don't care where the characters come from and what motivates them. I think you're unusal in that regard. For me, it's extremely important.

I've tried to not bring DAO into this because it has NOTHING to do with DAO. It's just common sense.

Well, for point 1, I didn't see the value of habing Hawke and/or Carver at Ostagar. . . didn't seem to have any value.  I'd have been okay with that changing, but does it fit with the framed narrative?  The whole, Hawke as Champion beginning?  Not sure it would, so not sure it could have been done.

As for point 2, I've read many books - likely hundreds - where the "home" of characters is never seen, hardly discussed, and barely mentioned.  Doesn't take away from the character at all.  Other things might, but simply having seen their home?  Nope.

[Pyrate_d]

TJPags wrote...

As for point 2, I've read many books - likely hundreds - where the "home" of characters is never seen, hardly discussed, and barely mentioned.  Doesn't take away from the character at all.  Other things might, but simply having seen their home?  Nope.

I'm not claiming that you always need a origin story/home sequence, I'm claiming that DA2 would have been better with one. If you disagree, there's not a whole lot else to say.

[TJPags]

Pyrate_d wrote...

TJPags wrote...

As for point 2, I've read many books - likely hundreds - where the "home" of characters is never seen, hardly discussed, and barely mentioned.  Doesn't take away from the character at all.  Other things might, but simply having seen their home?  Nope.

I'm not claiming that you always need a origin story/home sequence, I'm claiming that DA2 would have been better with one. If you disagree, there's not a whole lot else to say.

Given the story that's told in DA2 - the one told, not what you or I or anyone else would have LIKED to see told - then I'd have to say I disagree.
Hawke's motivations were not explored in DA2, and not really relevant, given how the game turns out.  So understanding Hawke's motivations becomes less important - practically unimportant, I'd say.

[Pyrate_d]

Considering the amount of time spent on Hawke's family, I think it would have been in Bioware's interest to make you care about them. And I think that an opening in Lothering would have been an excellent opportunity for this.

This is going with the story THEY TOLD.

[TJPags]

Yes, given that we are supposed to care about the family, then doing something to help with that would have been nice. I don't think it needed to be in Lothering - I think that would have taken too long. They could have easily increased the interaction during Act 1, even during Act 2 (particularly if your sibling doesn't die in the Deep Roads).

Opportunity lost, I agree, but again, I have to disagree that Lothering is needed for this.

[dgcatanisiri]

I do think a bit of a prologue in Lothering would have helped to flesh out the ogre-smash sibling better, make you actually feel something at their death. When that ogre appears, the sibling, who Hawke has been the protector of for eighteen years, had a varying relationship with, has only had a few lines of dialogue. Not even enough to really show their personality. We have no connection to them when they die. It takes a replay with a different class to feel the death.

[Funny_chan]

Maybe Bioware could make a DLC that explained the Hawke's family history before the darkspawn attack (a la Leliana's song). Heck, they could even use it to explain how Hawke's dad died.

[TJPags]

Funny_chan wrote...

Maybe Bioware could make a DLC that explained the Hawke's family history before the darkspawn attack (a la Leliana's song). Heck, they could even use it to explain how Hawke's dad died.

Has potential.  I'd suggest it take place before the whole DAO game starts.

That said, not sure I'd have personal interest.  I didn't play Leliana's Song, and I found her a lot more interesting than Hawke.  But that's personal preference.  I do think there might be potential here for people interested.

[Morroian]

Pyrate_d wrote...

Ensgnblack wrote...

1. The game begins in medias res, you are superhuman as Varric tells the story.   Piddling around  Lothering would not be the heroic begining BW sought.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. In media res is SUPER COOL, but you generally want to go back before the opening. 

No you don't, I've read a ton of books beginning in media res which don't. The whole point of it is to get the reader wondering about whats going on and focussed on picking up scraps of info about the background that they can.

[Pyrate_d]

Morroian wrote...

Pyrate_d wrote...

Ensgnblack wrote...

1. The game begins in medias res, you are superhuman as Varric tells the story.   Piddling around  Lothering would not be the heroic begining BW sought.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. In media res is SUPER COOL, but you generally want to go back before the opening. 

No you don't, I've read a ton of books beginning in media res which don't. The whole point of it is to get the reader wondering about whats going on and focussed on picking up scraps of info about the background that they can.

You're taking the discussion far out of context. He said that Bioware didn't visit Lothering because they wanted to start out in an exciting spot. I'm saying that beginning the story in media res doesn't mean Bioware can't go back to Lothering. If you want to argue about literary techniques, go somewhere else.

Modifié par Pyrate_d, 03 avril 2011 - 11:27 .