352 réponses à ce sujet

[Clover Rider]

halokitty wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

 Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

I thought the dudeHawke relationship was much more hero-worshippy... it's why I dislike it. I mentioned somewhere else that it was the difference between idolization and admiration. With dudeHawke, it's like she craves his approval (like Tali), whereas with Lady Hawke, she just sees a remarkable woman who's strong in all the ways she wishes she were. It's a much warmer relationship for me.

I couldn't agree more.  Lady Hawke and Merrill just really work for me.  It comes off as charming and empowering.  While the pics I've seen of Manly Beard Hawke and Merrill just seem...creepy. 

Keep in mind, though, I am quite admitedly biased on this subject!

That's why I don't play Manly Beard Hawke and play Fun Loving Hawke Who Has Just Some Face Hair but hey we are all biased in some way here.

[jlb524]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

[EDIT] I should also add that Merrill is just as strong and remarkable as Lady Hawke... she just doesn't quite believe it.

Indeed....which is why I love that romance and it comes off a pairing of two equals, even if the one has to grow comfortable in her own skin first, so to speak.

[catabuca]

Addai67 wrote...

I just meant I wanted more, and I like character introspection.  Not a complaint.  Who knows, maybe I wouldn't have liked the characters as much if more were spelled out- though I doubt that.  I love the gooey details.

I can understand that. Your earlier point about it being a game was a good one: I think it works well for BW to try to leave a lot unsaid, because it helps more players find something they will be able to relate to. I figure if everything was set in stone and defined in black and white with no (or little) wriggle room there will be more people who just can't relate in some way, or who can't find something they enjoy.

I guess it's a fine balance they have to strike, between defining characters that have interesting personalities, and leaving things open enough that every player of the franchise can read into a characters something that makes them gel with them. My personal view (as you know) is that, since romances undeniably are a huge part of the game for so many people (not all of course), trying to make that content as accessible as possible to as many people as possible is a great strategy. It really would be fantastic if they had the resources to be able to afford a slew of different LIs for all occasions, but since they simply can't, I can't see a better way of trying to give a little bit of something to as many players as possible, while trying to balance interesting characters and their emotional stories.

Merrill's companion arc is potentially heartbreaking, and it doesn't impact on that one way or another whether I know she likes men, women or both. Fenris' story about the fog warriors chokes me up every time, and the way his voice cracks when he leaves Hawke after their night together is astonishing -- I can't see how a declaration about his orientation before that moment would have made it any better. But that's just me. I love the characters for their emotional stories, and my Hawkes romance them as the people they are, not as a label of this orientation or that.

(edited to remove yet another annoying errant apostrophe)

Modifié par catabuca, 04 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[Clover Rider]

catabuca wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I just meant I wanted more, and I like character introspection.  Not a complaint.  Who knows, maybe I wouldn't have liked the characters as much if more were spelled out- though I doubt that.  I love the gooey details.

I can understand that. Your earlier point about it being a game was a good one: I think it works well for BW to try to leave a lot unsaid, because it helps more players find something they will be able to relate to. I figure if everything was set in stone and defined in black and white with no (or little) wriggle room there will be more people who just can't relate in some way, or who can't find something they enjoy.

I guess it's a fine balance they have to strike, between defining characters that have interesting personalities, and leaving things open enough that every player of the franchise can read into a characters something that makes them gel with them. My personal view (as you know) is that, since romances undeniably are a huge part of the game for so many people (not all of course), trying to make that content as accessible as possible to as many people as possible is a great strategy. It really would be fantastic if they had the resources to be able to afford a slew of different LIs for all occasions, but since they simply can't, I can't see a better way of trying to give a little bit of something to as many players as possible, while trying to balance interesting characters and their emotional stories.

Merrill's companion arc is potentially heartbreaking, and it doesn't impact on that one way or another whether I know she likes men, women or both. Fenris' story about the fog warriors chokes me up every time, and the way his voice cracks when he leaves Hawke after their night together is astonishing -- I can't see how a declaration about his orientation before that moment would have made it any better. But that's just me. I love the characters for their emotional stories, and my Hawke's romance them as the people they are, not as a label of this orientation or that.

Now this is a fine post.

[jlb524]

catabuca wrote...

Merrill's companion arc is potentially heartbreaking, and it doesn't impact on that one way or another whether I know she likes men, women or both. Fenris' story about the fog warriors chokes me up every time, and the way his voice cracks when he leaves Hawke after their night together is astonishing -- I can't see how a declaration about his orientation before that moment would have made it any better. But that's just me. I love the characters for their emotional stories, and my Hawke's romance them as the people they are, not as a label of this orientation or that.

+10

That's pretty much how I feel and you've articulated it beautifully. 

[catabuca]

Damn you all quoting my errant apostrophe. *shakes fist*

[Namuri]

Maria Caliban wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Does a murderknife have a gender?

I believe the technical term is anderskidneysexual.

WIN:wizard:

??  It's hardly the one thing.  In the Fenris thread, everything has
been discussed and speculated on down to what kind of toothpaste he
would use, if there were toothpaste in Thedas.

So... true...

But, anyway, on topic. I'm sort of biased, because I only play Fem!Hawkes, so I don't know how the romances work with a Male Hawke, but still here's what I thought:

Merrill : Fem!Hawke, I didn't play through it, but it seemed sort of adorable, and there's a childishness to Merrill that I think would make her and Male Hawke seem sort of... strange together. >>

Anders : Anyonewhowillgivehimthetimeofdaysexual. Male or Female.

Isabela : I don't think she cares, really. Her and Male hawke sound sort of awesome though. So M!Hawke?

Fenris : Fem!Hawke, considering Isa and all.

Because:
Varric : If he had to be with Hawke, Fem!Hawke. But otherwise, Bianca.

Aveline : Fem!Hawke, because?

As for DA : O

Lelina : Female Warden

Alistair : Female Warden

Morrigan : Either, although I liked being her 'sister' :3

Zevran : He's... Zevran. x.o I romanced him with a female warden, but I really don't think he'd give a damn.

Modifié par Namuri, 04 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Clover Rider]

catabuca wrote...

Damn you all quoting my errant apostrophe. *shakes fist*

Deal with it.:innocent:

[Addai]

jlb524 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Merrill's companion arc is potentially heartbreaking, and it doesn't impact on that one way or another whether I know she likes men, women or both. Fenris' story about the fog warriors chokes me up every time, and the way his voice cracks when he leaves Hawke after their night together is astonishing -- I can't see how a declaration about his orientation before that moment would have made it any better. But that's just me. I love the characters for their emotional stories, and my Hawke's romance them as the people they are, not as a label of this orientation or that.

+10

That's pretty much how I feel and you've articulated it beautifully. 

Wanting more detail versus subjectivity based on the player =/ not liking what detail we are given.  In fact the more I like a character, the more I want to know about them.

[Ryzaki]

catabuca wrote...
Merrill's companion arc is potentially heartbreaking, and it doesn't impact on that one way or another whether I know she likes men, women or both. Fenris' story about the fog warriors chokes me up every time, and the way his voice cracks when he leaves Hawke after their night together is astonishing -- I can't see how a declaration about his orientation before that moment would have made it any better. But that's just me. I love the characters for their emotional stories, and my Hawkes romance them as the people they are, not as a label of this orientation or that.

I <3 this. 

And I removed it just for you baby. 

[catabuca]

Addai67 wrote...

Wanting more detail versus subjectivity based on the player =/ not liking what detail we are given.  In fact the more I like a character, the more I want to know about them.

We all want to know more about them, of course we do. There's only so much they can tell us though, within the confines of the game. Because after all, it is a game, a game to be played by lots of different types of people who all have slightly different requirements and desires as for what they get out of it. It's a tricky balancing act BW have to attempt. No two people's Thedas will be imagined in quite the same way, and BW have to try to accomodate that. And they do that by leaving some things open to interpretation, and only fleshing out what they feel they need to for the story to work and the world to feel alive. I don't envy them, really I don't. What a task!

And as I said, for me specific declarations of orientation aren't something I need in game, as long as there are ways for me to extrapolate and experience in a convincing manner while I'm playing. And there are. I still remain a little sad, despite all that has been said, that orientation is the one thing that keeps being brought up in this regard. (I know what you said about fan threads speculating on everything under the sun, but I doubt there are many who are actually upset that the writers didn't show us what type of toothpaste (I use that example in jest) Fenris uses, it's accepted as something players are free to add into the world in order to flesh it out for themselves should they so desire.)

[catabuca]

Ryzaki wrote...

catabuca wrote...
Merrill's companion arc is potentially heartbreaking, and it doesn't impact on that one way or another whether I know she likes men, women or both. Fenris' story about the fog warriors chokes me up every time, and the way his voice cracks when he leaves Hawke after their night together is astonishing -- I can't see how a declaration about his orientation before that moment would have made it any better. But that's just me. I love the characters for their emotional stories, and my Hawkes romance them as the people they are, not as a label of this orientation or that.

I <3 this. 

And I removed it just for you baby. 

Oh Ryz, you're the best. So much better than those other fiends, who clearly have no compassion for a fellow BW fan's punctuational embarrassment.

(I am completely incapable of pluralising Hawke today.)

[mesmerizedish]

What kind of toothpaste Fenris uses is entirely dependent on what he's had his mouth on.

[MorningBird]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

What kind of toothpaste Fenris uses is entirely dependent on what he's had his mouth on.

... TEEHEE!

Ish, you bring smiles to my face.

[Addai]

catabuca wrote...
(I know what you said about fan threads speculating on everything under the sun, but I doubt there are many who are actually upset that the writers didn't show us what type of toothpaste (I use that example in jest) Fenris uses, it's accepted as something players are free to add into the world in order to flesh it out for themselves should they so desire.)

I think you underestimate the ferociousness of the toothpaste wars ongoing in some parts of the fandom.

[catabuca]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

What kind of toothpaste Fenris uses is entirely dependent on what he's had his mouth on.

Indeed. In my case, Fenris uses gay toothpaste. But I have no problem existentially with other people letting him use straight toothpaste in their games.

[mesmerizedish]

MorningBird wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

What kind of toothpaste Fenris uses is entirely dependent on what he's had his mouth on.

... TEEHEE!

Ish, you bring smiles to my face.

<3

[EDIT] I originally had something else written, but I had to stop myself before it got too dirty. I replaced it with just a heart to let you use your imagination.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 04 avril 2011 - 10:03 .

[Sjofn]

Some Geth wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

I thought the dudeHawke relationship was much more hero-worshippy... it's why I dislike it. I mentioned somewhere else that it was the difference between idolization and admiration. With dudeHawke, it's like she craves his approval (like Tali), whereas with Lady Hawke, she just sees a remarkable woman who's strong in all the ways she wishes she were. It's a much warmer relationship for me.

To me the fact she wants to be more like Female Hawke comes off more "hero-worshippy" but that is just in my opinion.

I feel similarly, and that's why Merril will be forever unloved in all my future playthroughs, no matter the gender of my Hawke. I don't like being hero-worshipped by my love interest, and I get that vibe from her, period.

I should hook her up with Jethann, they'd probably have cute elven babies.


EDIT: Hm, actually, thinking about it ... I don't like being hero worshipped by female love interests, because Anders sort of has a case of that if you're a mage, but all my characters at least make out with him. 

Modifié par Sjofn, 04 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[lizzbee]

Addai67 wrote...

lizzbee wrote...

Gaider's novels are a game, and the Fade is a character development device, just like it is in Origins.  Shame, really.  His novels drove me nuts, TBH.

I just meant I wanted more, and I like character introspection.  Not a complaint.  Who knows, maybe I wouldn't have liked the characters as much if more were spelled out- though I doubt that.  I love the gooey details.

Heh, it's a shame, because for me it was a huge,giant, enormous complaint.  I was really hoping I wasn't alone in finding everything in those novels a huge disappointment.  They read just like a sportscaster spelling out each and every detail of set parts of Origins.  Like the description of the DW rogue pirouette during the beheading of the spider in the Deep Roads.  I actually saw my Lady Aeducan doing the little dance as I read  

Stolen Throne had a few introspective moments (sort of), but that was about it.  The Calling's Wardens all had the personalities of pieces of cardboard until the Fade.  Then again, I'm a big fan of character-driven stories.  Plot's usually secondary, unless it's utterly missing (like The Calling).

[lizzbee]

catabuca wrote...

I can appreciate that, completely. Since like I said I wish he'd mentioned it to fHawke too.

I guess I just get a bit antsy when some people (not you) conflate this issue with a general displeasure towards all LIs being available to m/f Hawke, using it as ammunition to somehow 'prove' their characterisations are lacking because everyone gets to have a slice of the pie, instead of just some of us. It ranks up there on my angry-meter along with those who focus on a dialogue wheel mechanic as a thinly veiled attempt to bash s/s content. They are two separate issues, but it serves some people's purposes to conflate them in order to muddy the waters of debate and also to hide their own real feelings on the s/s issue.

But as you said, that's not what this thread is about.

So I'll just go back to shipping Anders/Hawke.

Sorry, I'm missing some lingo.  What's s/s?  I always thought it was "sword and shield."

Anyway, don't get me ranting on the dialog wheel, because I think it really does cheapen DA2's romances.  I'm one of the dialog wheel "whiners," because its lack of options backs you into a lot of situations and doesn't leave you a graceful, non-jerkish exit.  Anders is the big offender this game.  In ME2, it was Tali.  The complaint itself about the wheel is fair and it raises a lot of issues about quality RPG play that weren't a problem in Origins.  But that's neither here nor there.

[hoorayforicecream]

lizzbee wrote...

Sorry, I'm missing some lingo.  What's s/s?  I always thought it was "sword and shield."

Anyway, don't get me ranting on the dialog wheel, because I think it really does cheapen DA2's romances.  I'm one of the dialog wheel "whiners," because its lack of options backs you into a lot of situations and doesn't leave you a graceful, non-jerkish exit.  Anders is the big offender this game.  In ME2, it was Tali.  The complaint itself about the wheel is fair and it raises a lot of issues about quality RPG play that weren't a problem in Origins.  But that's neither here nor there.

I believe the context here has s/s meaning "same sex". Personally, I don't mind the dialogue wheel that much except for occasions where the dialogue wheel says one thing and what comes out of Hawke's mouth is totally different.

[Clover Rider]

Sjofn wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

I thought the dudeHawke relationship was much more hero-worshippy... it's why I dislike it. I mentioned somewhere else that it was the difference between idolization and admiration. With dudeHawke, it's like she craves his approval (like Tali), whereas with Lady Hawke, she just sees a remarkable woman who's strong in all the ways she wishes she were. It's a much warmer relationship for me.

To me the fact she wants to be more like Female Hawke comes off more "hero-worshippy" but that is just in my opinion.

I feel similarly, and that's why Merril will be forever unloved in all my future playthroughs, no matter the gender of my Hawke. I don't like being hero-worshipped by my love interest, and I get that vibe from her, period.

I should hook her up with Jethann, they'd probably have cute elven babies.


EDIT: Hm, actually, thinking about it ... I don't like being hero worshipped by female love interests, because Anders sort of has a case of that if you're a mage, but all my characters at least make out with him. 

Well for me hero-worship is only bad if it gets to the point the person wants to be just like you(yes I know that is what hero-worship is)like take me, back in my teens I "hero-worshipped" my Taekwondo teacher but I did not want to be more like her I just love the way she could fight and I was happy she got me into fighting(I was a depressed kid)so less hero-worship is better than more imo.

[lizzbee]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I believe the context here has s/s meaning "same sex". Personally, I don't mind the dialogue wheel that much except for occasions where the dialogue wheel says one thing and what comes out of Hawke's mouth is totally different.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Ryzaki]

Sjofn wrote...
I feel similarly, and that's why Merril will be forever unloved in all my future playthroughs, no matter the gender of my Hawke. I don't like being hero-worshipped by my love interest, and I get that vibe from her, period. 

I should hook her up with Jethann, they'd probably have cute elven babies.


EDIT: Hm, actually, thinking about it ... I don't like being hero worshipped by female love interests, because Anders sort of has a case of that if you're a mage, but all my characters at least make out with him. 

SHINING BEACON OF APOSTATE HOPE.  

On the note of a lot of detail. I hate when people get into to much detail. it gets boring and I get irritated. I have an imagination. Let me use it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2011 - 11:17 .

[silver-crescent]

I never do straight romances in DA2. There's just too much LGB goodness xD

Of course there's Sebastian, but I hate him so he doesn't count.