352 réponses à ce sujet

[Raelis27]

Personally, I prefer male!Hawke for Anders and fem!Hawke for Fenris. For some reason it just feels right. Maybe it's because the Karl story influenced me. My male!Hawkes are totally reserved for Anders, so I can't romance Fen playing a guy. Alternatively, all my mages are reserved for Fenris, so when I play a mage, I always play a chick.

[MasterSamson88]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

I feel it should be at least written into their character, and not be a variable if you play a male or a female.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it's written into the characters that they are bisexual. I love Isabela.

How do you know it's not written into the characters? Being bisexual doesn't mean you have to talk about it all the time.

What annoys me is that people presume that your sexuality determines your personality.

[Thiefy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Fenris has amazing and manly pores. There's nothing effeminate about him.

And here i was thinking i was the only one who noticed his skin looking a little rough.

but seriously, just because a man is gay or bisexual it does not making them effiminate. likewise i have a couple of good friends who are effiminate and they are straight. that's like saying all crossdressers are gay or bisexual. they aren't.

hard to believe, i know.

[Axekix]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

I feel it should be at least written into their character, and not be a variable if you play a male or a female.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it's written into the characters that they are bisexual. I love Isabela.

How do you know it's not written into the characters? Being bisexual doesn't mean you have to talk about it all the time.

What annoys me is that people presume that your sexuality determines your personality.

It doesn't determine it, of course, but it is a part of what makes you who you are.  IMO having all the LIs available for both genders makes them seem less genuine.

Modifié par Axekix, 04 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[MasterSamson88]

Axekix wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

I feel it should be at least written into their character, and not be a variable if you play a male or a female.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it's written into the characters that they are bisexual. I love Isabela.

How do you know it's not written into the characters? Being bisexual doesn't mean you have to talk about it all the time.

What annoys me is that people presume that your sexuality determines your personality.

It doesn't determine it, of course, but it is a part of what makes you who you are.  IMO having all the LIs available for both genders makes them seem less genuine.

Right, as you said it is part of who you are. But only part, and I'd argue a small part for many people. I feel like people are too quick to blow a persons sexuality out of proportion when its in truth hard to tell anyone's sexuality unless they tell you outright. 

[Ryzaki]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Fenris has amazing and manly pores. There's nothing effeminate about him.

And here i was thinking i was the only one who noticed his skin looking a little rough.

but seriously, just because a man is gay or bisexual it does not making them effiminate. likewise i have a couple of good friends who are effiminate and they are straight. that's like saying all crossdressers are gay or bisexual. they aren't.

hard to believe, i know.

Forget all a majority of crossdressers aren't gay/bisexual. I wish people would realize that. 

[mesmerizedish]

@MasterSamson: Exactly. My homosexuality is "part of who I am" but it is in no way a determining factor in any of my other traits. It determines whom I'm attracted to and nothing else.

[MasterSamson88]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

@MasterSamson: Exactly. My homosexuality is "part of who I am" but it is in no way a determining factor in any of my other traits. It determines whom I'm attracted to and nothing else.

Exactly, I feel like whether or not a character is bi-sexual or homosexual should have pretty much no standing on their personality as a whole. It shouldn't be a factor in determining you know, how brave they are or how determined they are. Those are completely separate traits from a persons sexuality. As such I feel like having all the characters bi doesn't really effect how genuine they are. Anders' quest to free the mages for example, didn't really play into him being bi at all obviously. 

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 04 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Ashwraith]

Honestly, I don't give a damn what gender the characters in question are romancing, so long as they are romancing me.




Heh, I just kid. Mostly.
Personally? I prefer het. But it doesn't really influence my perception of what is or is not 'canon'.

Modifié par Ashwraith, 04 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[catabuca]

Anders is head!canon gay in my games. So I can only imagine a mHawke romancing him. I kinda see Izzy more with mHawke too, and Merrill with fHawke. As for Fen, I guess either, but my preference is mHawke.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd say my sexual orientation is an important part of who I am. I think it influences me in a wide range of ways beyond 'girls are yummy.'

[Paraxial]

MasterSamson88 wrote...
should have pretty much no standing on their personality as a whole.

But this isn't how life is. Your sexual preference leads you to certain standings and assumptions that other people may not have. Your sexuality is a large part of your development not only as a human being, but as a person of society. Saying that your sexuality doesn't have any effect on your personality is like saying where you grew up or your race doesn't have any effect on who you are, it isn't true. I think the argument people are trying to make is that it makes the characters less relatable and deep if there is no written sexuality to them. This is because we as a society and as humans put a great deal of emphasis on a person's sexuality, gender, race, etc. It makes the characters seem more like a work of fiction if they are indifferent to sexual orientation, this bothers some more than it bothers others. 

If Anders was written as a gay man, you could have expanded greatly on the loss of a man that he loved. It could have gone very deeply into his conflict of losing someone he loves and shared many experiences with, some very powerful sexual ones. Merrill could have been written heterosexual and been very conflicted about the prospect of further losing her heritage by getting involved with a human male, in relation to the fact that her children would not be Dalish in the eyes of many. Not to say that these topics were not touched on, but I feel that it could have been expanded on a great deal if the characters sexual orientation was written into the characters. I have a hard time believing that Merrill, Fenris, and Anders are bisexual, I can see how their subjective sexuality works in relation to what Hawke i'm playing though.

Modifié par Bible Doctor, 04 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[Thiefy]

I agree with both of you but I don't think character sexuality ought to be something based on what the PC wants. Like if my brother flirted wish ishmael she suddenly turned straight and fell in love with him. >_>; sexuality shouldn't be subjective, convenient, or a quirky gameplay feature. if a character is bisexual, then they should be written like that. and by that i mean references, either in the character's past, party banter, or dialouge. leliana and isabella are two entirely different characters with entirely different takes on sex and romance, yet both are "believable" bisexuals. I use the term believable loosely, because while in our own cannons, all the LIs in DA2 can go for guys or girls, there is without a doubt, no arguement that those two characters are bisexual. i think the ambiguity is really what gets people - they'd like something more defined. and it's not that one character isn't believable when they are loosely defined, it's when 3/4ths of the LI cast is "technically sexually ambiguous" that people start to scratch their head in disbelief.

I've got no issue with the LIs being bisexual, but if they are just come out and say it, show it, whatever. Don't waffle in between "they might be/might not be/maybe in another universe". I'm a fangirl, and once I have my sight set on a companion, something as trivial as what might occur in someone else's PT isn't going to stop me. If anything I think it could actually be more interesting simply for the fact that you can have an experienced character all of a sudden become something like a "born again virgin" because they may not have the experience of romance with the opposite/same gender.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd say my sexual orientation is an important part of who I am. I think it influences me in a wide range of ways beyond 'girls are yummy.'

Which is absolutely fine. But it's not a universal truth (and I know you're not saying it is).

It's just a little upsetting that people think any of the characters present themselves in such a way as to preclude bisexuality, especially when those characters never talk about it.

[EDIT] *regrets that this has turned into "that thread"*

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 04 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[catabuca]

Anyone want a Gaider!quote on the subject?

David Gaider wrote...

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly? Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't. You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would. It strikes me that the only way some people will be happy is if we had an entire array of characters to romance-- some completely straight, some completely gay with maybe a few canonically bisexual characters for good measure. Enough to be "fair", and all of them covering the complete range of attractions for players of that persuasion.

I don't know about you, but that seems unlikely.

So as I said, we went with simply giving players the option of deciding for themselves, as well as interpreting for themselves. If some people are unhappy that they still didn't get the particular flavor they were looking for-- well, that's just too damned bad. As always, we're never going to be able to provide enough to suit everyone. At least in this case the people that don't like it can be equally unhappy, and I can live with that.

From here: http://social.biowar...ex/6576620&lf=8

[catabuca]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

It's just a little upsetting that people think any of the characters present themselves in such a way as to preclude bisexuality, especially when those characters never talk about it.

Yes, indeed.

It's also sad that it seems that for a character to be perceived 'accurately' as either gay or bisexual there has to be some sort of 'reason' or 'justification' or 'flag' written into their behaviour, whereas none is seemingly needed for straight characters.

What a sad double standard.

[Heidenreich]

I DG. He's amazing. *nod*


Romance DG, DA3 banners, they are a must have.

[catabuca]

David Gaider for DA3 LI.

[Heidenreich]

catabuca wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

It's just a little upsetting that people think any of the characters present themselves in such a way as to preclude bisexuality, especially when those characters never talk about it.

Yes, indeed.

It's also sad that it seems that for a character to be perceived 'accurately' as either gay or bisexual there has to be some sort of 'reason' or 'justification' or 'flag' written into their behaviour, whereas none is seemingly needed for straight characters.

What a sad double standard.

The only one who does that is Anders. Isabela is open, Merrill's issue is that you're HUMAN, and Fernis's issue is that you love him. And even then, Anders is "I love someone based on who they are", and uses Karl as that example when throwing himself at you ;p



EDIT: WOW I need to slow down when I type.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 04 avril 2011 - 04:31 .

[MasterSamson88]

catabuca wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

It's just a little upsetting that people think any of the characters present themselves in such a way as to preclude bisexuality, especially when those characters never talk about it.

Yes, indeed.

It's also sad that it seems that for a character to be perceived 'accurately' as either gay or bisexual there has to be some sort of 'reason' or 'justification' or 'flag' written into their behaviour, whereas none is seemingly needed for straight characters.

What a sad double standard.

Right, it seems like for a character to be bi they need to go out of their way and say it, then give some kind of reason for being as such.  I say it's not necessary.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 04 avril 2011 - 04:34 .

[catabuca]

Heidenreich wrote...

catabuca wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

It's just a little upsetting that people think any of the characters present themselves in such a way as to preclude bisexuality, especially when those characters never talk about it.

Yes, indeed.

It's also sad that it seems that for a character to be perceived 'accurately' as either gay or bisexual there has to be some sort of 'reason' or 'justification' or 'flag' written into their behaviour, whereas none is seemingly needed for straight characters.

What a sad double standard.

The only one who does that is Anders. Isabela is open, Merrill's issue is that you're HUMAN, and Fernis's issue is that you love him. Ande ven the, Anders is "I love someone basedo n who they are", and uses Karl as that example when throwing himself at you ;p

My point was that it's a shame so many people feel the need to ask for some kind of justification or declarative statement on a gay or bisexual person's orientation before they are prepared to accept that it is a genuine or 'realistic' part of that person. Whereas, no one seems to need the same kind of statement about a straight person's orientation for that to be viewed as 'realistic'.

If we are to demand that all gay/bisexual characters have some kind of invisible codex entry that says "I'm bisexual, and this is how it defines my personality", then we should have the same for every straight character in the game as well.

Wait, no ... that would be silly.

>_>

[catabuca]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Yes, indeed.

It's also sad that it seems that for a character to be perceived 'accurately' as either gay or bisexual there has to be some sort of 'reason' or 'justification' or 'flag' written into their behaviour, whereas none is seemingly needed for straight characters.

What a sad double standard.

Right, it seems like for a character to be bi they need to go out of their way and say it, then give some kind of reason for being as such.  I say it's not necessary.

Exactly.

I'm interested in the ways in which some think a bisexual character should be written in order for them to appear bisexual. How should Fenris be written in order to make him seem like a 'realistic' bisexual character, for example? Does he need to talk about all the men and women he's slept with previously? Does he need to have a conversation with one of the other characters where he comments on some guy's ass, followed by another conversation where he comments on a woman's ass? Or can it be simple enough that he finds Hawke attractive and falls for him/her?

I'm totally with Mr Gaider here: leaving it as something the characters (in general) don't really talk about means they can be interpreted however you want. It doesn't bother me one tiny bit that I know if I play a fHawke Anders won't mention his time with Karl. It doesn't bother me at all that Fenris can sleep with Isabela if mHawke doesn't pursue him. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that lots of fHawkes out in the world are sleeping with Anders when it's only my mHawkes that do. All of their characters are just as impactful, emotional, and interesting without having some kind of label hanging from their neck describing what kind of genitalia they prefer, and why.


(edited for errant apostrophes)

Modifié par catabuca, 04 avril 2011 - 04:43 .

[Maria Caliban]

I like that Merrill's sexuality is undefined because if it were, I think they'd go with straight. There's simply more drama a MHawke/Merrill pairing because of elven genetics.

And Merrill's story seems to be all about making her suffer.

[SurelyForth]

I don't care about justification for sexuality, but I do care that f!Hawkes don't get to hear about Karl because that seems like A Thing, you know? His former lover was made Tranquil and he killed him out of compassion. That's the sort of thing that gives a story weight and makes you care. To use it only as a way to explain why a character who many assumed to be straight before would be into a male Hawke diminishes it.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[Thiefy]

I'm sorry but you guys are taking this entirely the wrong way. If I come off as a douche, I don't mean to but I think you are being too sensitive.

As a player, i usually expect ALL companions/LIs to talk to me about themselves - it helps me get to know them, lets them grow as a character, and lets me get attached to them, regardless of their sexuality.

That being said, it's almost given that if a companion is an LI, most of the time their "past experiences" come into play. Straight LIs have done this so why is it that much of a big deal if I expect bisexual or homosexual LIs to do this? Or, if characters don't talk about their past so much, they at least display preferrence through dialouge or banter. With flirty characters it's easier to tell, but even with a more reserved character you can still show or hint at some preferrence. Or even lack of experience but the willing to try something new/different.

I'm treating all of the the same, and fairly, yet I can't help but read that when I expect the same thing from them, all of a sudden it's wrong for me to want this because I somehow hold up a double standard or stereotype somehow?

I don't have a problem with sexuality - any kind. I have a problem with the player deciding the companion's sexuality based off 1 flirt line, which more or less is a toggle. Companions don't need to be defined by their sexuality but I think they need to be fleshed out more in regards to their sexuality. And yes, that is entirely two different things.