352 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Given that Merrill might be a virgin and Fenris has amnesia, those two not talking about their sexual histories makes sense. Anders talked about his sexual history in Awakening and in DA II and Isabela certainly talks about hers.

[Dasha Dreyson]

catabuca wrote...

My point was that it's a shame so many people feel the need to ask for some kind of justification or declarative statement on a gay or bisexual person's orientation before they are prepared to accept that it is a genuine or 'realistic' part of that person. Whereas, no one seems to need the same kind of statement about a straight person's orientation for that to be viewed as 'realistic'.

If we are to demand that all gay/bisexual characters have some kind of invisible codex entry that says "I'm bisexual, and this is how it defines my personality", then we should have the same for every straight character in the game as well.

Wait, no ... that would be silly.

>_>

Now I feel bad. I'm a girly-girl tom-boy, and many people have been confused as to why I'm straight. Some people even thought that they needed to counsel me on it because they thought I was missing out (not people that would be in my dating pool if I did follow their advice).  I think part of it may be because I have so many homosexual friends. Big deal. Now that I'm married, I tell people that the only one I want hitting on me is my husband. (Which of course, some people will still hit on you regardless if you're married or not.)

Modifié par Dasha Dreyson, 04 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[mesmerizedish]

@Thief-of-Hearts: I can't speak for anyone else, but nothing I've said has been directed at you (or anyone specifically). My only disagreement with you is that sexuality is somehow toggled by the player. If that's how you want to look at it, you can... but you clearly don't want to look at it that way, and Mr. Gaider has said that that's not necessarily the way it is. So I don't understand why you're still upset

[Siansonea]

My female mage romanced Anders in my first playthrough. My male mage is romancing Anders in my current playthrough. I don't find Anders' attitude toward Hawke's gender jarring in any way. Anders is into Hawke, and apparently Hawke's gender isn't much of a variable for Anders. Doesn't "break my immersion", to borrow a much-hackneyed and eye-rollingly nerdraging expression. Having characters open to romance to either gender is a simple way of implementing a wider array of choices for players. Anyone can romance the character they like best (unless that character is Aveline or Varric) regardless of their Hawke's gender. If the player can't imagine Isabella, Anders, or whomever as a love interest for whichever gender they did not pursue, then there's an easy solution: Don't play through the romance with that character as other-gendered Hawke, either switch to a different LI, or stick with the original Hawke's gender.

[JesterPsychotica]

Dunno about you guys, but my male Hawke's cawke totally went for Fenris first, but when he wimped out I went for Anders. Listening to the jealous ****-banter between them was hilarious!

Anders: You were an idiot to leave Hawke.
Fenris: And you were fast enough to replace me.
Anders: I love him. You have no idea what that means.
Fenris: Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out.

Modifié par JesterPsychotica, 04 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[Thiefy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given that Merrill might be a virgin and Fenris has amnesia, those two not talking about their sexual histories makes sense. Anders talked about his sexual history in Awakening and in DA II and Isabela certainly talks about hers.

Right, but as an example, there is mentioning of Fenris and Isabella hooking up. Why not have Fenris hookup with a guy? And not even necessarily as party banter, but as a random mentioning? Like having one of the other party members make a comment?

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

@Thief-of-Hearts: I can't
speak for anyone else, but nothing I've said has been directed at you
(or anyone specifically). My only disagreement with you is that
sexuality is somehow toggled by the player. If that's how you want to
look at it, you can... but you clearly don't want to look at it that
way, and Mr. Gaider has said that that's not necessarily the way it is.
So I don't understand why you're still upset

It just seems like more of a toggle to me, I can't really explain why other than giving the example of Karl and Anders. I seriously would not have known had I not talked to other people simple because "he just seems straight". It doesn't change anything about him as a person and I still love him as a character, but how his romance was handled really did just seem like a toggle to me. I still for the life of me don't know why guys got that tidbit of info and girls didn't, other than it seems like maybe he thought it would scare off fem!hawke? Is he only allowed to be bisexual for men, and only straight for women?

Anyway I wasn't upset at anyone per say, just that the idea that I ask for more characterization is somehow me "justifying" sexuality. What the hell? There's no justifying other than it is what it is, but there's a really big divide between believable and flat characters - sexuality aside. Not to say that the DA2 is flat - it's not, but I feel like there was a lot of missed oppertunity and a better job could have been done. I get it, I really do, the company decided to keep things ambigeuous for a reason, and that's where I disagree. They should have just come out and say they were all bisexual and stuck with it, instead of being in the middle of "maybe" land. The people who would get pissed off at this are kind of pissed off now anyway, and there would be less of this player confusion going around with "Hawkesexuality".

[hoorayforicecream]

Does anyone else actually think that some romances would differ based on the type? Rival-fenris? ManHawke. Friendship Isabela? FemHawke.

[ReallyRue]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given that Merrill might be a virgin and Fenris has amnesia, those two not talking about their sexual histories makes sense. Anders talked about his sexual history in Awakening and in DA II and Isabela certainly talks about hers.

Right, but as an example, there is mentioning of Fenris and Isabella hooking up. Why not have Fenris hookup with a guy? And not even necessarily as party banter, but as a random mentioning? Like having one of the other party members make a comment?

Isabela is promiscuous, for a start. Who else in the party (male or female) is Fenris likely to hook up? We only learn about it because we hear them talking about it in a banter. If Fenris was involved with a man outside the party, he'd not be likely to say "Hawke, come and hear the latest news about my sex life".

[Thiefy]

ReallyRue wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given that Merrill might be a virgin and Fenris has amnesia, those two not talking about their sexual histories makes sense. Anders talked about his sexual history in Awakening and in DA II and Isabela certainly talks about hers.

Right, but as an example, there is mentioning of Fenris and Isabella hooking up. Why not have Fenris hookup with a guy? And not even necessarily as party banter, but as a random mentioning? Like having one of the other party members make a comment?

Isabela is promiscuous, for a start. Who else in the party (male or female) is Fenris likely to hook up? We only learn about it because we hear them talking about it in a banter. If Fenris was involved with a man outside the party, he'd not be likely to say "Hawke, come and hear the latest news about my sex life".

That doesn't mean another party member couldn't see him hooking up with a guy or even giving the second glance to a another guy he finds interesting, and then comment on it. At which point Fenris would shut down the conversation, just like the conversations about him and Hawke with the other party members.

[halokitty]

Ashwraith wrote...

Honestly, I don't give a damn what gender the characters in question are romancing, so long as they are romancing me.

Heh, I just kid. [s]Mostly.

I know many people feel it's "immersion breaking" but that's pretty much how I feel about romances in Bioware games.  My character is the hero, it's her story and her legend that I'm building.  Who wants to hear the tale of how Hawke got turned down by a bunch of girls before finally settling for the one bisexual lady in the Free Marches?  I can't imagine Varric spinning that less-than compelling romantic yarn.

I am quite in favor of all romance-able characters being Shepard-sexual or Hawke-sexual depending on the player character's gender.  Despite the many, many, many bugs and issues surrounding DA2, I am indescribably happy and grateful for having a variety of romantic options.  And most of all, for Merrill!  <3

Modifié par halokitty, 04 avril 2011 - 06:44 .

[catabuca]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Right, but as an example, there is mentioning of Fenris and Isabella hooking up. Why not have Fenris hookup with a guy? And not even necessarily as party banter, but as a random mentioning? Like having one of the other party members make a comment?

Why would it have to be a man? If you overhear that banter during a run with a mHawke who has flirted with Fenris, you can take it as 'evidence' of Fenris being bisexual if you so desire. Unless you're looking for a more specific reason to be able to say 'Fenris is gay', I don't see the problem. It's doing precisely what you wish the game would do -- giving a little bit of insight into Fenris' interests. Having him hook up with a male character instead of Isabela if you are doing a fHawke run, just to 'prove' his bisexuality, seems like it would be more of an example of 'toggling' than keeping it as Isabela through both fHawke and mHawke runs.

It just seems like more of a toggle to me, I can't really explain why other than giving the example of Karl and Anders. I seriously would not have known had I not talked to other people simple because "he just seems straight". It doesn't change anything about him as a person and I still love him as a character, but how his romance was handled really did just seem like a toggle to me. I still for the life of me don't know why guys got that tidbit of info and girls didn't, other than it seems like maybe he thought it would scare off fem!hawke? Is he only allowed to be bisexual for men, and only straight for women?

Anyway I wasn't upset at anyone per say, just that the idea that I ask for more characterization is somehow me "justifying" sexuality. What the hell? There's no justifying other than it is what it is, but there's a really big divide between believable and flat characters - sexuality aside. Not to say that the DA2 is flat - it's not, but I feel like there was a lot of missed oppertunity and a better job could have been done. I get it, I really do, the company decided to keep things ambigeuous for a reason, and that's where I disagree. They should have just come out and say they were all bisexual and stuck with it, instead of being in the middle of "maybe" land. The people who would get pissed off at this are kind of pissed off now anyway, and there would be less of this player confusion going around with "Hawkesexuality".

The Karl/Anders thing -- here's how I square it in my mind: Anders 'drops' it into conversation early on almost as a way of testing the waters, to see if mHawke might also be interested in him. He doesn't talk at length about their relationship, go into any details, or seem to want to open up about that part of his past, so I am happy to see it purely as him assessing Hawke's interest.

In fact, you could argue that the very fact he does this differently for a fHawke or mHawke run might show that his sexuality is important to his character, in the way you have been outlining 'important'. It's an example of him using something from his past with another man as a way of trying to see the lay of the land with mHawke. With fHawke he doesn't need to do that, and so keeps his relationship private, as he probably would have had he known mHawke was gay/bi from the outset.

Now, that's just an example of how you can read those actions in the game in a convincing way. Depth is there in all the characters if you're prepared to look for it. I, personally, do wish Anders talked about Karl being his lover with a fHawke as well, purely because it makes that encounter all the more heartfelt, but where we differ is that I don't think it diminishes his character nor his sexuality because he doesn't. I just shrug it off and get on with it.

I guess what it all comes down to for me is that I just don't understand why it's such a big deal. I honestly cannot see what could have been added to their characters by making them have more statements about their orientation. Remember, this is purely from a gameplay standpoint, not about real world statements or whatever. In the absence of a raft of multiple gay/straight/bisexual characters for Hawke to romance, I am firmly of the opinion that this is the best way to go about it, since each player can read into the LIs whatever they want depending on what is inferred in any given playthrough. Just like I can infer that Seamus and the qunari had more than just a friendly relationship, whereas others might infer differently. Just as I can infer that Merrill is a virgin (I haven't played her romance, so I don't know if she confirms or denies this at all), whereas others might infer differently. I like it when the game leaves things open to interpretation so I can imagine the characters as I think best suits them. Not everything about a character has to be traced out in detail ... after all, our imaginations can sometimes be far stronger than the writer's pen ... and I just get a little sad that the issue of orientation always seems to be the one thing that people need clarification on.

[catabuca]

halokitty wrote...

Ashwraith wrote...

Honestly, I don't give a damn what gender the characters in question are romancing, so long as they are romancing me.

Heh, I just kid. [s]Mostly.

I know many people feel it's "immersion breaking" but that's pretty much how I feel about romances in Bioware games.  My character is the hero, it's her story and her legend that I'm building.  Who wants to hear the tale of how Hawke got turned down by a bunch of girls before finally settling for the one bisexual lady in the Free Marches?  I can't imagine Varric spinning that less-than compelling romantic yarn.

I am quite in favor of all romance-able characters being Shepard-sexual or Hawke-sexual depending on the player character's gender.  Despite the many, many, many bugs and issues surrounding DA2, I am indescribably happy and grateful for having a variety of romantic options.  And most of all, for Merrill!  <3

My feelings exactly, halo

[Addai]

catabuca wrote...
I like it when the game leaves things open to interpretation so I can imagine the characters as I think best suits them. Not everything about a character has to be traced out in detail ... after all, our imaginations can sometimes be far stronger than the writer's pen ... and I just get a little sad that the issue of orientation always seems to be the one thing that people need clarification on.

??  It's hardly the one thing.  In the Fenris thread, everything has been discussed and speculated on down to what kind of toothpaste he would use, if there were toothpaste in Thedas.

I prefer characters being fully fleshed out, but this is a frustration I'm always going to have because the Dragon Age story is being told in game form rather than book form.  Even Gaider's novels leave a lot of character inner workings open to speculation and he apparently prefers it that way, whereas it's a little maddening for me.

[catabuca]

Addai67 wrote...

catabuca wrote...
I like it when the game leaves things open to interpretation so I can imagine the characters as I think best suits them. Not everything about a character has to be traced out in detail ... after all, our imaginations can sometimes be far stronger than the writer's pen ... and I just get a little sad that the issue of orientation always seems to be the one thing that people need clarification on.

??  It's hardly the one thing.  In the Fenris thread, everything has been discussed and speculated on down to what kind of toothpaste he would use, if there were toothpaste in Thedas.

I prefer characters being fully fleshed out, but this is a frustration I'm always going to have because the Dragon Age story is being told in game form rather than book form.  Even Gaider's novels leave a lot of character inner workings open to speculation and he apparently prefers it that way, whereas it's a little maddening for me.

I don't go in the Fenris thread, so I wouldn't know.

All novels, movies, games etc. leave something to the imagination, usually lots of things. I guess we all just have different ideas about what the important things to have down in detail in black and white are. For me orientation isn't one of the important things, for you it seems to be.

[Kerethos]

So far I've only done one playthrough, but I've already found that I do have some preferences; mainly guy + girl ones. I've seen some rather adorable male Hawke+Fenris or Anders, but in the end it really comes down to that I like the idea that Hawke and the romantic partner end up having children some day. Just a personal preference though, just as I prefer to pair Anders and Fenris with a mage and that I wish Hawke hugged Carver (he sure seems to need a hug, and I think Bethany gets a few).

The fact that you can romance them with any gender, aside from Sebastian, is something I welcome. But I thought that it might affect the story negatively, happily I was wrong, and it only adds additional entertainment and replay value, friend- and rivalmance both, something I look forward to playing with during future playthroughs. And who knows, my preferences for romantics couplings ,between Hawke and companions, might changes as I play the different romances

[lizzbee]

Addai67 wrote...
Even Gaider's novels leave a lot of character inner workings open to speculation and he apparently prefers it that way, whereas it's a little maddening for me.

Gaider's novels are a game, and the Fade is a character development device, just like it is in Origins.  Shame, really.  His novels drove me nuts, TBH.

[lizzbee]

catabuca wrote...

The Karl/Anders thing -- here's how I square it in my mind: Anders 'drops' it into conversation early on almost as a way of testing the waters, to see if mHawke might also be interested in him. He doesn't talk at length about their relationship, go into any details, or seem to want to open up about that part of his past, so I am happy to see it purely as him assessing Hawke's interest.

In fact, you could argue that the very fact he does this differently for a fHawke or mHawke run might show that his sexuality is important to his character, in the way you have been outlining 'important'. It's an example of him using something from his past with another man as a way of trying to see the lay of the land with mHawke. With fHawke he doesn't need to do that, and so keeps his relationship private, as he probably would have had he known mHawke was gay/bi from the outset.

Now, that's just an example of how you can read those actions in the game in a convincing way. Depth is there in all the characters if you're prepared to look for it. I, personally, do wish Anders talked about Karl being his lover with a fHawke as well, purely because it makes that encounter all the more heartfelt, but where we differ is that I don't think it diminishes his character nor his sexuality because he doesn't. I just shrug it off and get on with it.

I just find it interesting that the man who involves you physically in his relationship with Karl, keeps the emotional impact away from FemHawke.  I just remember reading somewhere that he was intimate with Karl, but in my borked-up FemHawke attempt with a rivalmance, he never said a word.  I kept wondering just WTF everyone was talking about.  It wasn't until this run, rivalmancing him with ManHawke that I found out.

It may be a "testing the waters" thing with ManHawke, but you still get the conversation even if you deliberately flirt with him before that and make it absolutely, stunningly clear that, "Hey, Anders, I want a slice of that magical goodness!"  It just feels like an aspect of his emotional intimacy is missing if you play as a female.  After seeing the contrast, I don't think I'll ever be able to romance him with a female Hawke.  It just feels wrong, if that makes any sense.

That's pretty much what this thread is about, not whether the whole "everyone's bi" thing is correct or not.

[Clover Rider]

 Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

Fenris I can now only see with Female Hawke now thanks to my sister, girlfriend, girlfriend's sisters.<_<

Isabela is as bi as fire burns people so I can see her with anyone.

Anders no one he just makes me hate him and want Old Anders back.

Modifié par Some Geth, 04 avril 2011 - 08:17 .

[mesmerizedish]

Some Geth wrote...

 Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

I thought the dudeHawke relationship was much more hero-worshippy... it's why I dislike it. I mentioned somewhere else that it was the difference between idolization and admiration. With dudeHawke, it's like she craves his approval (like Tali), whereas with Lady Hawke, she just sees a remarkable woman who's strong in all the ways she wishes she were. It's a much warmer relationship for me.

[Clover Rider]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

 Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

I thought the dudeHawke relationship was much more hero-worshippy... it's why I dislike it. I mentioned somewhere else that it was the difference between idolization and admiration. With dudeHawke, it's like she craves his approval (like Tali), whereas with Lady Hawke, she just sees a remarkable woman who's strong in all the ways she wishes she were. It's a much warmer relationship for me.

To me the fact she wants to be more like Female Hawke comes off more "hero-worshippy" but that is just in my opinion.

[halokitty]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

 Merrill for Male Hawke if only cuz I was not big on the fact it came off more as a hero worship relationship(but I was okay with Tali don't know why...)with the Female Hawke romance.

I thought the dudeHawke relationship was much more hero-worshippy... it's why I dislike it. I mentioned somewhere else that it was the difference between idolization and admiration. With dudeHawke, it's like she craves his approval (like Tali), whereas with Lady Hawke, she just sees a remarkable woman who's strong in all the ways she wishes she were. It's a much warmer relationship for me.

I couldn't agree more.  Lady Hawke and Merrill just really work for me.  It comes off as charming and empowering.  While the pics I've seen of Manly Beard Hawke and Merrill just seem...creepy. 

Keep in mind, though, I am quite admitedly biased on this subject!

[catabuca]

lizzbee wrote...

I just find it interesting that the man who involves you physically in his relationship with Karl, keeps the emotional impact away from FemHawke.  I just remember reading somewhere that he was intimate with Karl, but in my borked-up FemHawke attempt with a rivalmance, he never said a word.  I kept wondering just WTF everyone was talking about.  It wasn't until this run, rivalmancing him with ManHawke that I found out.

It may be a "testing the waters" thing with ManHawke, but you still get the conversation even if you deliberately flirt with him before that and make it absolutely, stunningly clear that, "Hey, Anders, I want a slice of that magical goodness!"  It just feels like an aspect of his emotional intimacy is missing if you play as a female.  After seeing the contrast, I don't think I'll ever be able to romance him with a female Hawke.  It just feels wrong, if that makes any sense.

That's pretty much what this thread is about, not whether the whole "everyone's bi" thing is correct or not.

I can appreciate that, completely. Since like I said I wish he'd mentioned it to fHawke too.

I guess I just get a bit antsy when some people (not you) conflate this issue with a general displeasure towards all LIs being available to m/f Hawke, using it as ammunition to somehow 'prove' their characterisations are lacking because everyone gets to have a slice of the pie, instead of just some of us. It ranks up there on my angry-meter along with those who focus on a dialogue wheel mechanic as a thinly veiled attempt to bash s/s content. They are two separate issues, but it serves some people's purposes to conflate them in order to muddy the waters of debate and also to hide their own real feelings on the s/s issue.

But as you said, that's not what this thread is about.

So I'll just go back to shipping Anders/Hawke.

[mesmerizedish]

halokitty wrote...

I couldn't agree more.  Lady Hawke and Merrill just really work for me.  It comes off as charming and empowering.  While the pics I've seen of Manly Beard Hawke and Merrill just seem...creepy. 

Keep in mind, though, I am quite admitedly biased on this subject!

Same here

[EDIT] I should also add that Merrill is just as strong and remarkable as Lady Hawke... she just doesn't quite believe it.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 04 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Yes, if they aren't bisexual or open to another gender (so bi-curious.)

I guess all the LI's were bi-curious or openly bisexual.

[Addai]

lizzbee wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Even Gaider's novels leave a lot of character inner workings open to speculation and he apparently prefers it that way, whereas it's a little maddening for me.

Gaider's novels are a game, and the Fade is a character development device, just like it is in Origins.  Shame, really.  His novels drove me nuts, TBH.

I just meant I wanted more, and I like character introspection.  Not a complaint.  Who knows, maybe I wouldn't have liked the characters as much if more were spelled out- though I doubt that.  I love the gooey details.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 avril 2011 - 08:48 .