56 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

Arbalest7 wrote...

Except he was right, also we never actually so any of Emeric's evidence so how do you know he was really stretching? Besides if you have reason to believe there is a serial killer it's better to err on the side of caution. Anyways I was thinking more after you meet DuPuis and you confirmed both the killer's existence and MO and nothing was done. How but even a flier urging caution and to notify the Guard if you mysteriously receive white lilies? 

Emeric wasn't right except in the most abstract sense and he was a useless investigator. 

How do we know nothing was done? Also, please realize that the guard doesn't have the TV news at 6pm to issue alerts.   What were they supposed to do?  Go door to door putting lily sellers out of business on the word of a bloodmage?

Considering that the only known victim after the DuPuis incident was Mama Hawke, you have wonder whether the PC bothered to tell anyone him or herself.   Either Mama Hawke ignored what she'd been told or its been long enough that the white lilly hysteria faded.   Hawke had to think about it to recall the details... "Wait.. I remember something about that.".

[AshenEndymion]

Well, there is that girl who DuPuis was holding, and uses to find the hidden location in the Foundry. She could have been watched by the guards, just in case....

[Vormaerin]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Several women were murdered, all of whom recieved white lilies from an unknown suitor before disappearing.  It seems pretty obvious to me that the events are connected.  As for DuPuis, well he was investigating Quentin, so he was at least involved in the case.  Not only that, he was a blood mage and Quentin's apprentice!  Short of actually solving the case, I don't see how Emeric did anything wrong

Except Emeric didn't know any of that stuff.  He didn't know about the lillies.  He pretty much claimed every missing woman in the last three years was a Quentin victim.   And what he knew about DuPuis was completely wrong.  

Not to mention, the guards did investigate the Foundry.  And they did investigate DuPuis.   And Avelline did ask you to investigate since Hawke had mages and criminal contacts that she didn't.   So...?

Hawke catches DuPuis as a blood mage entirely because of pure luck.  DuPuis set a trap for Quentin and Hawke stumbled into it.  If Hawke had investigated on any other night, he wouldn't have found squat either. 

[Arbalest7]

Vormaerin wrote...
Emeric wasn't right except in the most abstract sense and he was a useless investigator. 

How do we know nothing was done? Also, please realize that the guard doesn't have the TV news at 6pm to issue alerts.   What were they supposed to do?  Go door to door putting lily sellers out of business on the word of a bloodmage?

Considering that the only known victim after the DuPuis incident was Mama Hawke, you have wonder whether the PC bothered to tell anyone him or herself.   Either Mama Hawke ignored what she'd been told or its been long enough that the white lilly hysteria faded.   Hawke had to think about it to recall the details... "Wait.. I remember something about that.".

The two women we saw him invesgeting were murdered by Quentin. Gascard was not the killer but he was his apprentince and connected to him. So I fail to see how he was so useless. The white lilies motif was not made up whole-sale by Gascard, the mage Emeric was investigating initially received them. 

On the second note, Aveline has suggested putting up fliers across the city for less.  

Edit: To points you listed above: Emeric did know about the lilies: the very first woman he mentioned received them. Also if you killed Gascard, Hawke did just accidently stumble across the trap door. Quentin wasn't expecting you it was no trap. 

Modifié par Arbalest7, 04 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[Silveryne]

Considering Mage!Hawke couldn't find the trap door if it was obfuscated with magic, I don't think that we should consider that an issue. Hawke probably should have actually thoroughly searched the place or reported it to Aveline. And if Hawke did, who's to say Aveline didn't search, shrug her shoulders and go: "Sorry, Hawke, I don't know what happened there?"

Emeric was a little on the crazy side. He doesn't have all the knowledge the player or Gascard has. He just thought that there was a link between the killings and demanded Aveline look into it. It actually played like something from a strange detective novel: "These murders are linked, officer!" And the tough officer goes: "NO THEY'RE NOT. STFU." And then turns to Detective Friend: "Shut him up, do some independent digging, he won't believe anything the police say." And then detective friend goes: "Hey, these deaths ARE linked. This is kind of crazy. Oh no! Emeric's been murdered! HE KNEW TOO MUCH."

I was disappointed by the options with Aveline. But more because I wanted my Hawke to go only a little crazy and not just snap, but slam her hands into Aveline's desk, bend over and bitterly utter, "You're a disgrace to that uniform, 'captain'," then walk out. I would have loved to see my friendship with Aveline changed forever after that, instead of have Aveline go: "You're just looking for someone to blame, Honey. It'll be okay in the end. I forgive you."

Also, I think Ma Hawke blaming Hawke for Carver/Bethany is reasonable. Hawke is eldest, most experienced, and either vastly talented in magical or martial arts. I imagine Ma Hawke thought that Hawke should have stopped Carver/Bethany, pushed them all away, or stepped up him/herself. Hawke blaming Aveline is also reasonable. It actually happens a lot in real life, communities saying cops aren't doing enough or even anything at all when there's an ongoing investigation. It's really sad. And not beyond the realms of plausibility.

[Icy Magebane]

The problem with dismissing Emeric as a lunatic is this: at several points, you the player, can share your suspicions and evidence with Emeric in Act 1. Yes, he will continue his investigation even if you blow him off, but there are more than enough dialogue choices in Act 1 where you can agree that there is a serial killer and vow to help Emeric. If you take those options, when Prime Suspect starts, you can continue to support Emeric's theories... it's not like he just dreams this stuff up with no evidence. Hawke's input and support should have mattered.

For the record, I never blamed Aveline... if anyone is at fault, it's Bodhan, who insists that you wait until nightfall to start looking. What a foolish suggestion... in this kind of case, seconds matter, and you're supposed to wait around for hours?

[Lewie]

Aveline cares about her job and her 'charges', thats obvious, but its sometimes at the expense of what hawke does. The whole storyline of hawkes mother was a bit too much, second playthrough as soon as i hit the foundry for the first sacrifice i knew, and you can't stop it. Yet, the unseen possession of mages and templars makes it hard to pin blame. The only satisfaction was killing the murderer, of which the whole guard was blind to, deliberately? or maybe not. Also Orsino knew of his 'work' and did nothing, kept the books aside for nightime reading i think not.

Then a bloody dwarf sells an idol. Lol.

[Mnemnosyne]

Pretty much everyone involved seems to be at fault here if you ask me. The Templars were led to that warehouse by the phylactery of a missing mage, apparently looked around, saw nobody, shrugged, and went home. (I'm beginning to see why there are so many apostates in Kirkwall.)

Then Hawke goes and sees a guy duck into the back, fights some shades and a desire demon, looks around and sees no other possible exits, finds body parts, then...shrugs and goes home.

Then Hawke gives the body parts to Emeric and tells him they were found in the same foundry. And that she was attacked by shades. Emeric says he'll tell the guard to look into it. Wait, what? Isn't this now fully in the realm of templar territory? Bizarre bones and other body parts, and a bunch of demons and shades. Seems like exactly what templars are supposed to deal with! Whether it's because Mharen was secretly a blood mage or because some other blood mage abducted her, this seems like it should go straight to the Knight-Commander and need a full investigation immediately. (Again, is it any wonder there's so much magical trouble in Kirkwall when the templars seem unwilling to do their jobs?)

Then Aveline becomes guard captain and Emeric starts pestering her about it, you'd think that she'd start by investigating the foundry where they found those body parts in the first place. It's certainly less hassle than investigating some noble's estate.

And yet despite multiple times when it would be entirely reasonable and logical to give that foundry a very thorough search, nobody ever does so. There's no indication of how many women were murdered after Ninette (at least two, Leandra and that other woman that Gascard is 'trying to save'), but all of them are primarily because the templars didn't bother to do their actual job, in one of the few instances where their job actually is important and a valuable service to the public.

[Vormaerin]

Hawke knows that Ninette got lillies because her husband mentions it. Its never brought up as an identifier for the killings until DuPuis. And if you listen to Emeric, his tale is all crazy clueless. Its quite clear he isn't focused on a small number of similar cases with some distinctive feature. He's got a grab bag of random disappearances with no rhyme or reason.

And, again, Avelline doesn't ignore the case. They checked out the Foundry, they checked out the bones, they checked out DuPuis, she asked Hawke for assistance. The Templars refuse to help. The First Enchanter is HELPING the killer. What the hell is she supposed to do besides that? She knows that there is a killer. That there are quite a few killers in the city. She also knows that Emeric has no fricking clue who the killer is and is just sending her on wild goose chases.

[ejoslin]

Vormaerin wrote...

Hawke knows that Ninette got lillies because her husband mentions it. Its never brought up as an identifier for the killings until DuPuis. And if you listen to Emeric, his tale is all crazy clueless. Its quite clear he isn't focused on a small number of similar cases with some distinctive feature. He's got a grab bag of random disappearances with no rhyme or reason.

And, again, Avelline doesn't ignore the case. They checked out the Foundry, they checked out the bones, they checked out DuPuis, she asked Hawke for assistance. The Templars refuse to help. The First Enchanter is HELPING the killer. What the hell is she supposed to do besides that? She knows that there is a killer. That there are quite a few killers in the city. She also knows that Emeric has no fricking clue who the killer is and is just sending her on wild goose chases.

Justified or no, you would think if Hawke were looking to blame her, she would focus on the fact that Aveline stopped the investigation, not that she was a guard.  I mean, seriously, a "Had you not given up on trying to find him, my mom would still be alive," in that situation just strikes me as more realistic.  It also would wound a bit more, which may be why they don't go down that path.

[Bmeszaros]

I would've hoped for a "Disappointed in Aveline" option. Aveline always stresses how she never wants to let the people close to her down after Wesley, whom she thinks she "failed"

Maybe a option that said: "I did all I could and nobody with any authority believed me, even one of my best friends, and that makes the hurt even worse."

And Maybe a mean option that says "Maybe I should've refused to help you become captain, then maybe your boytoy Donnic would've died on his "Sacrifical Patrol" "

Modifié par Bmeszaros, 04 avril 2011 - 02:29 .

[Vormaerin]

ejoslin wrote...

Justified or no, you would think if Hawke were looking to blame her, she would focus on the fact that Aveline stopped the investigation, not that she was a guard.  I mean, seriously, a "Had you not given up on trying to find him, my mom would still be alive," in that situation just strikes me as more realistic.  It also would wound a bit more, which may be why they don't go down that path.

There's all kinds of appropriate, irrational responses for Hawke to make.   But the fact is, Aveline didn't stop the investigation.  She got hammered by political pressure from above and went around it by asking Hawke to act where she couldn't.

[ejoslin]

Vormaerin wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Justified or no, you would think if Hawke were looking to blame her, she would focus on the fact that Aveline stopped the investigation, not that she was a guard.  I mean, seriously, a "Had you not given up on trying to find him, my mom would still be alive," in that situation just strikes me as more realistic.  It also would wound a bit more, which may be why they don't go down that path.

There's all kinds of appropriate, irrational responses for Hawke to make.   But the fact is, Aveline didn't stop the investigation.  She got hammered by political pressure from above and went around it by asking Hawke to act where she couldn't.

I'm not arguing the appropriateness of it -- but she DID say that she didn't think there was the evidence and discounted the idea that it was a serial killer.  She doesn't report to Meredith -- only the Viscount.  Meredith had the power to stop Emeric, not to stop Aveline.  So when it comes to Hawke blaming Aveline, it seems it would be about the investigation, not about the job of the city guards.  

This is one place where the dialog wheel really let me down.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 avril 2011 - 02:49 .

[Vormaerin]

I'd have to replay the game to read the dialogues, but I remember Emeric basically claiming one man was responsible for every disappearance in the last few years and Avelline saying "bull. There's more than enough killers in the city without some crazy conspiracy theory."

And they are both right and wrong. There was a serial killer, but he wasn't responsible for everything Emeric blamed on him, so naturally the investigation got nowhere when the guards looked into it. They came to the correct conclusion: multiple killers, unrelated.

[Mnemnosyne]

Heh, you know who else I would have liked to be able to blame? Cullen. Or hell, Meredith, when she brings it up in Act III. I don't recall the exact context of the conversation but she brings it up as a reason Hawke should be opposed to the mages, and a very appropriate response might have been something along the lines of, 'if you hadn't been so focused on oppressing innocent mages, you might have actually gone out there and caught one of the bad ones.'  And it could even be pushed further by noting that DuPuis wasn't the murderer, but he WAS a blood mage of highly questionable morals, and if they'd caught and interrogated him they probably would have found Quentin.

Modifié par Koyasha, 04 avril 2011 - 02:49 .

[ejoslin]

Vormaerin wrote...

I'd have to replay the game to read the dialogues, but I remember Emeric basically claiming one man was responsible for every disappearance in the last few years and Avelline saying "bull. There's more than enough killers in the city without some crazy conspiracy theory."

And they are both right and wrong. There was a serial killer, but he wasn't responsible for everything Emeric blamed on him, so naturally the investigation got nowhere when the guards looked into it. They came to the correct conclusion: multiple killers, unrelated.

Again, this is not what I'm arguing at all.  I'm saying, since Hawke had asked Aveline to consider the evidence (bag of bones) and Aveline came to the conclusion it wasn't a serial killer (again, not arguing right or wrong about this), it seems when Hawke gets the opportunity to blame, she would yell at Aveline for dropping the investigation, not for the guards not protecting well enough.

Anyway, the OP asked if it annoyed anyone by the "chew out" option, and it did me because I personally expected the yelling to be about the investigation being dropped, not about the guards not guarding.

[Lewie]

Vormaerin wrote...

I'd have to replay the game to read the dialogues, but I remember Emeric basically claiming one man was responsible for every disappearance in the last few years and Avelline saying "bull. There's more than enough killers in the city without some crazy conspiracy theory."

And they are both right and wrong. There was a serial killer, but he wasn't responsible for everything Emeric blamed on him, so naturally the investigation got nowhere when the guards looked into it. They came to the correct conclusion: multiple killers, unrelated.

The problem was the mages didnt trust the templars, vice versa, the templars didn't trust the guards, vice versa, and so on. Who trusted who? Shared information for the greater good in Kirkwall is a rarity. Living in a city that is falling in on itself, and expecting clear cut answers for crime is contradictory. 

[leggywillow]

I was just happy I had an option to yell at her in the first place.  Not because I blame Aveline particularly, but because I love being able to role-play a realistically flawed character.  Someone who gets irrational and takes out her anger on the wrong people.  I thought that scene went down really well.

[Camenae]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I wanted an option to hug LI and cry.

This +1000.  : (

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Well let's see, the guard didn't do a thorough search of the foundry to find the obvious trap door to the killer's lair so yes, incompetence.

Okay since it's invisible to you in Act 1 let's assume it's magically concealed. Since human body parts were found there in a suspicious bag, instead of dismissing them as scavangers (what an incredibly STUPID thing to do), petition the Circle for a mage to come investigate the place with magic.. I'm sure there are ways to undo magic invisibility spells or whatever. Emeric would no doubt help with that.

Talladarr wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I wanted an option to hug LI and cry.

^^
this

Thirded.

This.  The whole post, really.  I also want to add that Aveline deserves the blame not just because she made mistakes in her job, but because she blames Hawke for every little thing that goes wrong in her own life.  "My life sucks, why'd you have to go and be successful and rich?"  "You want to give me an awesome shield?  What's wrong with you, you son of a ****?!"  "Why don't you do things by the book, why don't you get a title or something?  Why are you out there cleaning up the streets better than my entire platoon?"  Seriously, Aveline makes me want to set her up with Mike Tyson, not Donnic.  So yes, I did want to chew out Aveline good after that.  If it were a companion that'd been as good to me as I'd been to them (i.e. pretty much any of them), then no, I wouldn't.

Also, I'd like the whole "it was my fault" angle to have actually went somewhere besides a couple of meaningless dialogue options.  A lot of people WOULD blame themselves.  I guess the game wouldn't have worked real well if Hawke stops caring about anything except drinking, but it could have gone SOMEWHERE.

[Vormaerin]

You must have worked at making Aveline a rival to get that kind of response from her.

[TobiTobsen]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Well, there is that girl who DuPuis was holding, and uses to find the hidden location in the Foundry. She could have been watched by the guards, just in case....

Actually if Aveline is there with you and there with you if you go check on Emeric in the shady backstreet, she says that she will send guards to protect the woman.

Guess what? They fail.

Aveline might be proud of her super trained guards but if you ask me, they are failing quite a few times.

To quote the Guards from The Elder Scrolls: *Arrow hits the other Guard* "THERE WAS A MURDER! Must have been the wind..."

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 avril 2011 - 08:59 .

[NaclynE]

What still gets me is Im hitting on her with my female hawke and she still smiles at me and winds up with a man.

"Stop trying to protect me Hawke." *while smiling.*~Aveline.

[Kilshrek]

I don't see why the option to chew Aveline out would be annoying since you have the other two 'positive' choices. It'd be totally in line with someone lashing out after losing a person they love. Plus Aveline went all "My guards will handle it", which as we all know came up to Hawke doing everyone's job, again.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 04 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[sylvanaerie]

It's in human nature to want to lay blame. The option is even there to do so. Maybe it wasn't the words you yourself would have spoken but that's one of the drawbacks of playing a game. The writers can't include 5000000000 different dialogue lines to cover EVERY single response people might have. They have a story to tell and its a minor point.
I would have loved more options to tell Anders what a complete twit he is when he pulls his stunt in act 3 but all the responses are so tame as to be totally unsatisfying to the moment. But I have to work within the framework of the game and imagine a much more satisfying confrontation which because of what he's done, you are left no time to handle it, since you have to beat Meredith's templars to the Gallows (Or go join them).
In the end, despite where you want to lay the blame, it falls squarely on Quinton's shoulders. He was the one who killed mom. You can lay blame in many directions (and there was a thread dealing with conversation a while ago) but ultimately the whole thing is just so shocking because it's senseless and the most powerful person in Kirkwall can't do a DAMN thing to stop it from happening.