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[Mnemnosyne]

The Angry One wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

In the circle tower in Ferelden in DA:O, there were Tranquils being turned into abominations by a demon were there not?

No.  Shades were appearing in their place.  The tranquil would either die or vanish, and a shade, not an abomination, would appear.  In this case, it seemed as though the death of the tranquil was being used to allow a demon to come through the veil.

Oh I see.
Mind you, doesn't that Templar that Cullen is after in Act 1 turn into a Shade?
Might still be a case of forced possession, albiet the kind that can happen to any mundane.

Yes, he also summons abominations out of the ground.  It really seems like it should have been the other way around - Wilmod turns into an abomination and summons shades.

I'm not sure what the significance is, but it really seems like this might be a result of laziness/poor judgement on the encounter design in DA2, because there's a lot of encounters like that where abominations appear out of nowhere, for no apparent reason, yet as far as I can remember, I never see a case of an abomination appearing like that in DA:O.

[Paeyne]

Demons can appear if summoned or if the veil is thin. Given the amount of death in Kirkwall, I think its safe to assume the veil is pretty stress if not out-right torn.

Abominations need a body but I am not sure if that need be a living body. I don't see any reason why they couldn't use one that was recently deceased.

I guess a case could be made that during some battles there are some extraneous NPCs lying about that could be inhabited, but there are several occasions when you are out in the middle of no-where.

Some things just amount to your degree of suspension of disbelief.

[Super_Fr33k]

I'd wager that it is possible to restore a tranquil mage, mostly because there doesn't appear to be any real research on it, and because, well, magic can do just about anything.

However, a question occurs: Is being made Tranquil suppressing or removing magical ability? It's always referred to as though it has severed something, yet the process makes use of a lyrium brand. Does the lyrium burn down their bridge to the Fade, or just block it? Anyone have any insight past wiki pages? It seems like Anders being able to flood the material world with Fade energy, or whatever you want to call it, and then restoring Karl's personality, shows the brand can be overwritten or circumvented. Seems premature to say this can only be temporary.

[Mnemnosyne]

Paeyne wrote...

Demons can appear if summoned or if the veil is thin. Given the amount of death in Kirkwall, I think its safe to assume the veil is pretty stress if not out-right torn.

Abominations need a body but I am not sure if that need be a living body. I don't see any reason why they couldn't use one that was recently deceased.

I guess a case could be made that during some battles there are some extraneous NPCs lying about that could be inhabited, but there are several occasions when you are out in the middle of no-where.

Some things just amount to your degree of suspension of disbelief.

Yes, demons can appear physically if summoned or the veil is thin, so it would make perfect sense to have demons or shades (which really are just another type of demon) appear in that scene.  Abominations always seem to need a living body story-wise, at least - if the body is dead, then a revenant or arcane horror is the result.

But then we have incidents like the aforementioned episode with Wilmod where abominations pop out of nowhere.  There's almost certainly several other scenes like that, but I don't recall any specific examples off-hand.  It's really hard for me to see these events as anything but poor monster selection in DA2 at the moment, because it contradicts established lore, isn't actually commented on by the characters, and is contrary to the very careful selection of monsters in DA:O where such inconsistencies didn't exist, as far as I can recall.

[Paeyne]

I have only one explanation that would fit into my understanding of the game world.

In general, abominations are mages possessed by a demon. Mages can enter the fade physically so I don't see any reason why abominations could not do the same. The abominations in this scene could be ones who were in the fade and summoned from it.

This is the only logical explanation that fits the circumstances.

Of course, there is no real reason, motivationally, for a demon who wants to enter the mortal world by possessing a mage to return to the fade, but that is a question of desire rather than capability.

[Mnemnosyne]

Um, no, mages cannot enter the fade physically. Mages can stay aware while in the fade, but nobody enters the fade physically, ever, except for - if the story is true - the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium that went to the Black City. Spirits (including demons) seem able to cross physically into Thedas, and can be sent back to the Fade, but nothing from Thedas can physically enter the Fade.

[Zaldrak84]

silver-crescent wrote...

They did say if you choose to kill him at the end of DA2 he stays dead.

I wouldn't be surprised if if you let him live he makes a cameo later on, but it'll never be anything significative.

They can bring him back anytime they want: Wynne was a spirit healer with a Fade spirit inside her (exactly like Anders), and the spirit brought her back to life after a fatal injury.

Same thing can and probably will happen to Anders if he was murderknifed.

[greyman33]

Super_Fr33k wrote...

I'd wager that it is possible to restore a tranquil mage, mostly because there doesn't appear to be any real research on it, and because, well, magic can do just about anything.

However, a question occurs: Is being made Tranquil suppressing or removing magical ability? It's always referred to as though it has severed something, yet the process makes use of a lyrium brand. Does the lyrium burn down their bridge to the Fade, or just block it? Anyone have any insight past wiki pages? It seems like Anders being able to flood the material world with Fade energy, or whatever you want to call it, and then restoring Karl's personality, shows the brand can be overwritten or circumvented. Seems premature to say this can only be temporary.

No added insight, officially, but my understanding was that the process severed the mage's connection to the fade, not just blocked it.  They still remembered how to use their magical talents, but can no longer link to the power source that shapes them.  Sort of like cutting the power cord off a toaster.  The mechanics are all still there, but nothing happens when you press the lever down.

Karl temporarily regained his personality and (presumably) abilities because the fade came to him, he didn't need to link to anything through the veil.  Going back to the toaster analogy, it was as though somebody touched the severed ends of the power cord directly to a battery.  That, to me anyway, showed that the process of Tranquilizing a mage is more a severing of their connection to the fade, because if the process blocked their talents they should have stayed blocked regardless.  Just my interpretation...

If that is the case, then I would assume that a Tranquil brought into the Fade somehow (say the way the Warden winds up there during Torpor's attack on the Fereldon Circle) would, while there, be returned to their full faculties as they were before being made Tranquil.  In theory they should not be abel to be pulled into the fade at all, but then again, neither should dwarves, and yet that doesn't stop the dwarven Wardens or Varric.

[Raiil]

Zaldrak84 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

They did say if you choose to kill him at the end of DA2 he stays dead.

I wouldn't be surprised if if you let him live he makes a cameo later on, but it'll never be anything significative.

They can bring him back anytime they want: Wynne was a spirit healer with a Fade spirit inside her (exactly like Anders), and the spirit brought her back to life after a fatal injury.

Same thing can and probably will happen to Anders if he was murderknifed.

Gaider confirmed that murderknifed Anders was well and truly murderknifed, and thus very, really dead if you kill him.

I'm more or less curious to know if when they say sever, if they have actual proof of the severing of their ability, or if it's just a term they use because they don't completely understand the process of what happened.

[ThePasserby]

I think the whole business of Karl feeling the presence of the Fade once more, hence restoring his full personality, is just a single-use plot device to showcase Anders bitterness towards the Templars. I don't see it happening again, whether brought about by Anders again or by another character.

[Paeyne]

Koyasha wrote...

Um, no, mages cannot enter the fade physically. Mages can stay aware while in the fade, but nobody enters the fade physically, ever, except for - if the story is true - the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium that went to the Black City. Spirits (including demons) seem able to cross physically into Thedas, and can be sent back to the Fade, but nothing from Thedas can physically enter the Fade.

Most of the codex and conversations that I am aware of only say that the mage "enters the fade".  There is some indications in different lore that this could be either spiritual or physical depending on the circumstances.

"Mages have a special connection to the otherworldly realm known as the Fade. According to the Chantry, the
Fade is the source of the primeval matter from which the Maker formed Thedas and all living beings." - Dragon Age RPG.

Where there is matter there is physicality.  The fact that the fade may be in flux does not necessarily mean it isn't physical.  The fact that spirits inhabit the world does not make it a spirit world any more than Thedas.  The fact that dreamers may experience things in that world does not automatically make it a dream world.

I don't see any reason why a mage could not go there physically and the magisters are a good indication that this may have happened in the past.

This all assumes, of course, that the Chantry is right, which is not a certainty by any means.

[JanisaryJames]

I doubt it could work. The idea of tranquility is that the body is cut from the Fade in its entirety, removing ambition, emotion, and all that other jazz tranquils don't have. So therefore the spirit embodying that, well, body loses its personality and is made tranquil.

According to Elvhen lore, spirits of the Fade are no different than those of the mortal realm except for the part that they don't have a real body. So, if making a Mage tranquil just nullifies his personality by cutting him off from the Fade, then throwing a Demon in a Tranquil body by opening a temporary link to the Fade would allow the Fade spirit to enter the body and create a being similar to Anders/Justice so long as that temporary connection is maintained. Once that connection is severed though, that body's link to the Fade is cut as well as the link for any spirits contained in the tranquil body, in effect making two tranquil spirits in one tranquil body.

In the end, the act of allowing a Fade spirit into a tranquil body would only serve as a Dragon Age version of Ghostbusting Fade spirit.

Modifié par JanisaryJames, 08 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[Paeyne]

greyman33 wrote...

Super_Fr33k wrote...

I'd wager that it is possible to restore a tranquil mage, mostly because there doesn't appear to be any real research on it, and because, well, magic can do just about anything.

However, a question occurs: Is being made Tranquil suppressing or removing magical ability? It's always referred to as though it has severed something, yet the process makes use of a lyrium brand. Does the lyrium burn down their bridge to the Fade, or just block it? Anyone have any insight past wiki pages? It seems like Anders being able to flood the material world with Fade energy, or whatever you want to call it, and then restoring Karl's personality, shows the brand can be overwritten or circumvented. Seems premature to say this can only be temporary.

No added insight, officially, but my understanding was that the process severed the mage's connection to the fade, not just blocked it.  They still remembered how to use their magical talents, but can no longer link to the power source that shapes them.  Sort of like cutting the power cord off a toaster.  The mechanics are all still there, but nothing happens when you press the lever down.

Karl temporarily regained his personality and (presumably) abilities because the fade came to him, he didn't need to link to anything through the veil.  Going back to the toaster analogy, it was as though somebody touched the severed ends of the power cord directly to a battery.  That, to me anyway, showed that the process of Tranquilizing a mage is more a severing of their connection to the fade, because if the process blocked their talents they should have stayed blocked regardless.  Just my interpretation...

If that is the case, then I would assume that a Tranquil brought into the Fade somehow (say the way the Warden winds up there during Torpor's attack on the Fereldon Circle) would, while there, be returned to their full faculties as they were before being made Tranquil.  In theory they should not be abel to be pulled into the fade at all, but then again, neither should dwarves, and yet that doesn't stop the dwarven Wardens or Varric.

The Tranquil are an interesting case that has always intrigued me.

The common school of thought is that the mages have been brain damaged or lobotomized in some way.  Using the toaster example the cord is physical and is severed.  (ie the mage is brain damaged in some way)

I have never really subscribed to this line of thinking and the situation with Karl seems to bear this out.  The presence of Justice seems to restore Karl to normalcy, however temporarily.  I don't think that this would be the case if the Rite caused physical brain damage.

An alternate school of thought is that the mages' soul has a connection to the fade and it is this connection that has been severed.  Using the toaster example the cord is spiritual.

Personally, I prefer this line of thinking.  The presence of Justice to Karl might have served as a temporary connection to the Fade but because it is only vestigial it could not last.

Since we know that spirits can be placed into bodies, even non mages, one cure might be to place a spirit into a Tranquil.  The Rite only prevents spirits from doing it the easy way.  As the connection to the fade does not exist it would have to be a physical possession (such as animating a dead body) rather than a remote possession (such as the Desire Demon and Connor).  What that would do to the Tranquil and what the resulting personality would be is anybody's guess.  I would depend on the person and the possessing spirit.

All hypothetical of course.

[Mnemnosyne]

Paeyne wrote...

Most of the codex and conversations that I am aware of only say that the mage "enters the fade".  There is some indications in different lore that this could be either spiritual or physical depending on the circumstances.

"Mages have a special connection to the otherworldly realm known as the Fade. According to the Chantry, the
Fade is the source of the primeval matter from which the Maker formed Thedas and all living beings." - Dragon Age RPG.

Where there is matter there is physicality.  The fact that the fade may be in flux does not necessarily mean it isn't physical.  The fact that spirits inhabit the world does not make it a spirit world any more than Thedas.  The fact that dreamers may experience things in that world does not automatically make it a dream world.

I don't see any reason why a mage could not go there physically and the magisters are a good indication that this may have happened in the past.

This all assumes, of course, that the Chantry is right, which is not a certainty by any means.

From the codex entry '31 The Cardinal Rules of Magic':
"Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade,
your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and
reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous."

[Obadiah]

ThePasserby wrote...

I think the whole business of Karl feeling the presence of the Fade once more, hence restoring his full personality, is just a single-use plot device to showcase Anders bitterness towards the Templars. I don't see it happening again, whether brought about by Anders again or by another character.

Agreed. As some else pointed out, there are Tranquil and Abominations all over the Circle Tower in DA:O and the Tranqui there never seem to spontaneously regain their connection to the Fade.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 avril 2011 - 06:40 .

[Paeyne]

Koyasha wrote...

Paeyne wrote...

Most of the codex and conversations that I am aware of only say that the mage "enters the fade".  There is some indications in different lore that this could be either spiritual or physical depending on the circumstances.

"Mages have a special connection to the otherworldly realm known as the Fade. According to the Chantry, the
Fade is the source of the primeval matter from which the Maker formed Thedas and all living beings." - Dragon Age RPG.

Where there is matter there is physicality.  The fact that the fade may be in flux does not necessarily mean it isn't physical.  The fact that spirits inhabit the world does not make it a spirit world any more than Thedas.  The fact that dreamers may experience things in that world does not automatically make it a dream world.

I don't see any reason why a mage could not go there physically and the magisters are a good indication that this may have happened in the past.

This all assumes, of course, that the Chantry is right, which is not a certainty by any means.

From the codex entry '31 The Cardinal Rules of Magic':
"Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade,
your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and
reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous."

I am aware of this.

This assumes that First Enchanter Wenselus was correct.

His opinion may not be any more valid than the Chantry's.