255 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

cljqnsnyc wrote...

Why are these labels applied to anyone who has any sort of problem with DA2 or it's developers?

1. Troll
2. Hater
3. Crybaby

We are all entitled to our own opinions and most of us are capable of forming independent thoughts......most of us. In any case, a project leader is held accountable when a project or product meets expectation, exceeds goals, or fails do accomplish any of the above. One person does not make up a team, but as that lead, he or she shoulders the responsibility of how that product performs. If consumers are unhappy with a product, they have every right to complain. That's how the system works.

Bioware has cultivated a reputation of excellence over the course of many years. In an industry filled with mediocrity, they have prospered for gaining a reputation for listening to it's fans and exceeding their expectations time and time again. Quality craftsmanship and attention to detail, which requires time, over sloppiness and inefficiency. If you are taught to appreciate prime rib, ground beef simply will not due. Of course opinions are purely subjective, but this does not change the fact that we are allowed to have them and express them.

Holding someone accountable is the right of every consumer. Disagreeing with someone's stance does not change this fact. Some people do not believe strongly enough in their own opinions and seek validation from others. If they can't get what they feel they need, frustration forces them to resort to name calling and personal attacks.

I personally do not hate DA2. Hate is a very strong word that has been wildly misused on these forums. It may apply to some, but certainly not to all. Even though there are some things to enjoy in this game, overall, I was highly disappointed with all it seemed to lack. That coupled with the way I interpreted a few statements by the lead designer in recent interviews was enough for me to exercise my right to complain. If that's a problem for some, then I'd suggest they take that up with...themselves.

Calling for a man's head on a platter over a game is silly. Asking a company to discontinue his employment is cruel. Questioning his performance based on a personal assessment of a product he had control of is fair. Holding someone accountable for the statements they make is also fair. DA2 elicits such a strong reaction because longtime consumers are afraid an all too familiar pattern may be repeated. Big fish takes smaller fish, consumes smaller fish until said fish exists no more.

I for one still have faith in Bioware. A speed bump isn't enough to stop a car that's been traveling for a long period of time. As for Mike Laidlaw...some on these forums have been viciously unfair towards him. At the same time he bares the responsibility of his position. Who knows, he may yet surprise his many detractors. As I stated before in a previous post, the ball is in his and Bioware's court.

PS......

Feel free to disagree with my opinion but be warned..... It's MY opinion, and I have every right to express it! Like it or not!

Thank you for posting a mature and reasonable response, it is very much appreciated. Even if I do or do not agree with elements in people's posts if they express themselves in a mature way I have respect for them. You have done so I believe and for that have my thanks.

[Rockpopple]

Funny when all the evidence points the other way
lowest rated Bioware game ever - check.
Reviews sub 5 check.
First patch of 100+ bug fixes - check.
Price reduction after 3 weeks -check.

You can make all the excuses you like but if you can't counter that, your just blowing hot air.

You got it, Bob:

Lowest Rated BioWare game ever - Not a check. Sorry. Not even co-lose. Lowest Reviewed RPG? Sure. But I've already posted a thread filled with reviews for both DA:O and DA II from every major website out there. Are they down? Yes, but generally by only a few points. Nothing to say that it's no longer a AAA title, whatever that means.


Reviews Sub 5 - Check, only if you discount every other User review website in the world. And if you're gonna do that, you might as well Check that you're King of the World, and you have your own country called BobLand. Why not? Anything goes, apparently.

First Patch 100+ bug fixes - check.... so what? What does the fact that the game shipped with bugs, both major and minor, have to do with the price of tea in China? Fallout 3 shipped with major bugs. Mass Effect shipped with bugs. AAA titles have shipped with bugs before, and they will again. They're being fixed. Cry a river.

Price Reduction after 3 weeks - check... depending on where you are. I went to a Best Buy just yesterday, and they're stilling selling it at full price. I went to an EB GAMES early last week. Still full price, and still only keeping a few copies on the shelves. So what do we this "price reduction" stuff, Bob? ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. I'll let you look it up and see what it means.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Of course, you'll simply respond to this by saying none of my points count because.... I dunno, they're not from you or something, and therefore you're still right and you'll always be right. To which I will say, "Wrong again, Bob."

Let's watch! 

[AllThatJazz]

 In response to the original post, and specifically the opinion that Mike Laidlaw should not be in charge of DA3, I respectfully disagree. 

I enjoyed Dragon Age 2. It's far from being the perfect game (not that such exists), but I believe that many, if not most of its issues (some of which bothered me, some of which didn't) -  the recycled assets/areas, the bugs, the sparse and empty look of Kirkwall, the smaller scope of the game, and the lack of 'fleshing out' of the main storyline, are more to do with the rushed development cycle than any incompetence or dislike of RPGs on Mike Laidlaw's part. It's kind of impressive that they managed to put together a 40-50 hour game that I liked playing in such a short dev cycle.  I think that the game could (and probably should) have been a helluva lot worse given the time it took to make, and I think that if they had spent another 6 -12 months on DA2 that it could have been superb. I am interested in what Mike Laidlaw and his team can do with a reasonable development cycle. That's what I hope they get, rather than shuffling staff around and maybe bringing in yet another person who doesn't know much or indeed anything about the franchise.

Of course, it should be noted that I am already of the opinion that DA2 was a very enjoyable game, a view I realise that many in this thread do not share.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Ah, hyperbole and mass generalization, how I've missed you.

Feel free to prove otherwise.

Yeah, Bob, I would, but I - like most serious people - am not in the business of trying to prove a negative.

Jeez. I'd think I was infallible all the time if all I did was argue with myself. Or walls. Plenty of walls available.

Funny when all the evidence points the other way
lowest rated Bioware game ever - check.
Reviews sub 5 check.
First patch of 100+ bug fixes - check.
Price reduction after 3 weeks -check.

You can make all the excuses you like but if you can't counter that, your just blowing hot air.

It is NOT the lowest rated Bioware game ever.

Skewed User Ratings....OMG, that never happened before!

Second patch contains 100+ fixes, not fixes for +100 bugs. And hey, BG had about 500 bugs+, with the Fixpack (A Mod) fixing over 120 alone.

Price reduction happens to all titles pretty quickly, esp. on Amazon. Means nothing at all.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Then I'll be "dellusional" (Sic!). Happily.

You know, when it boils down to elitist comments like this, normal "discussion" is no longer possible. 

[Dragoonlordz]

AllThatJazz wrote...

 In response to the original post, and specifically the opinion that Mike Laidlaw should not be in charge of DA3, I respectfully disagree. 

I enjoyed Dragon Age 2. It's far from being the perfect game (not that such exists), but I believe that many, if not most of its issues (some of which bothered me, some of which didn't) -  the recycled assets/areas, the bugs, the sparse and empty look of Kirkwall, the smaller scope of the game, and the lack of 'fleshing out' of the main storyline, are more to do with the rushed development cycle than any incompetence or dislike of RPGs on Mike Laidlaw's part. It's kind of impressive that they managed to put together a 40-50 hour game that I liked playing in such a short dev cycle.  I think that the game could (and probably should) have been a helluva lot worse given the time it took to make, and I think that if they had spent another 6 -12 months on DA2 that it could have been superb. I am interested in what Mike Laidlaw and his team can do with a reasonable development cycle. That's what I hope they get, rather than shuffling staff around and maybe bringing in yet another person who doesn't know much or indeed anything about the franchise.

Of course, it should be noted that I am already of the opinion that DA2 was a very enjoyable game, a view I realise that many in this thread do not share.

I thank you for contributing in a open and debating manner, you managed to get your view across quite well without the need to degrade other people's opinions.

Many thanks for that.

With regard to the last sentence I will admit rings true in the sense DA2 is not where I had hoped the series would progress to and I think I have covered the why and why not's in an earlier post within the thread. But you are not wrong that I did not enjoy DA2 so much on the whole not just for the bugs/glitches and individual changes as such but more inline with the direction it went in and ideology behind it. There is a risk putting a different lead in charge of the next project but there is also the risk that keeping the choice for the next project lead the same may push the series further away from where it began and what it had accomplished. My magic 8 ball refuses to tell me what the result will be but there is a risk.

I have no intention of trying to impede Mike's creativity and vision for what he think's is the ideal RPG I merely believe such creativity would have been best shown on a new title rather than an existing one with a pre-existing fanbase.

[Night Prowler76]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Ah, hyperbole and mass generalization, how I've missed you.

Feel free to prove otherwise.

Yeah, Bob, I would, but I - like most serious people - am not in the business of trying to prove a negative.

Jeez. I'd think I was infallible all the time if all I did was argue with myself. Or walls. Plenty of walls available.

Funny when all the evidence points the other way
lowest rated Bioware game ever - check.
Reviews sub 5 check.
First patch of 100+ bug fixes - check.
Price reduction after 3 weeks -check.

You can make all the excuses you like but if you can't counter that, your just blowing hot air.

It is NOT the lowest rated Bioware game ever.

Skewed User Ratings....OMG, that never happened before!

Second patch contains 100+ fixes, not fixes for +100 bugs. And hey, BG had about 500 bugs+, with the Fixpack (A Mod) fixing over 120 alone.

Price reduction happens to all titles pretty quickly, esp. on Amazon. Means nothing at all.

He was referring to user and CRITIC ratings.  Bad reviews on behalf of users do not make them skewed, if they got alot of high scores, you of all people would be praising it and saying ZOMG LOOK AT THE AWESOME SCORES ITS GETTING!!!! THATS PROOOOOOF!

Thanks for pointing out BioWare releases bug ridden games and this is just normal and acceptable, you are really helping your case.

Price reductions DO NOT HAPPEN TO ALL TITLES in the beginning months, this is just a false statement entirely.

[Persephone]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Ah, hyperbole and mass generalization, how I've missed you.

Feel free to prove otherwise.

Yeah, Bob, I would, but I - like most serious people - am not in the business of trying to prove a negative.

Jeez. I'd think I was infallible all the time if all I did was argue with myself. Or walls. Plenty of walls available.

Funny when all the evidence points the other way
lowest rated Bioware game ever - check.
Reviews sub 5 check.
First patch of 100+ bug fixes - check.
Price reduction after 3 weeks -check.

You can make all the excuses you like but if you can't counter that, your just blowing hot air.

It is NOT the lowest rated Bioware game ever.

Skewed User Ratings....OMG, that never happened before!

Second patch contains 100+ fixes, not fixes for +100 bugs. And hey, BG had about 500 bugs+, with the Fixpack (A Mod) fixing over 120 alone.

Price reduction happens to all titles pretty quickly, esp. on Amazon. Means nothing at all.

He was referring to user and CRITIC ratings.  Bad reviews on behalf of users do not make them skewed, if they got alot of high scores, you of all people would be praising it and saying ZOMG LOOK AT THE AWESOME SCORES ITS GETTING!!!! THATS PROOOOOOF!

Thanks for pointing out BioWare releases bug ridden games and this is just normal and acceptable, you are really helping your case.

Price reductions DO NOT HAPPEN TO ALL TITLES in the beginning months, this is just a false statement entirely.

The user ratings are skewed. Dance around it all you like, that's a fact.

And don't presume to know me well enough to predict my actions. I don't have to prove anything, you know? Many games I love have positively skewed ratings (Users as well as critics) and I'll admit to that. (ME2 for example, oh my!) Is THIS what this is all about? "Proving" something? Proving that you are "right" and everyone who disagrees is wrong? Because Metracritic (Or Troll Haven) said so? Puleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaze!

Patches with 100 fixes (Not all of them bugs) are an every day event. Just the sober truth. 

And yes, the reductions happen to pretty much all titles. Sales amongst other things cause them. It means nothing.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Rockpopple wrote...

You got it, Bob:

[snip]

Of course, you'll simply respond to this by saying none of my points count because.... I dunno, they're not from you or something, and therefore you're still right and you'll always be right. To which I will say, "Wrong again, Bob."

Let's watch! 

[sarcasm]
Uh oh, Rockpopple!  Didn't you see the sign on the thread that said "Only post if you agree with the OP!"  You dare disagree!  
[/sarcasm]

Srsly, good points, though, sir.  HIGH FIVE!

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

You are aware what you consider an improvement, others consider a step backwards. You may also want to ask yourself why these features were removed, since according to your reasoning they were done to improve the game. If thats the case then why are these features being charged for now in MEII?

I am aware that one man's trash is another man's treasure.  That doesn't mean I have to see all trash as a treasure.  Trash is trash.  If BioWare carved the rotten parts of the RPG genre out and left the story in, more power to them.  Also, more of my money to them, and that's why corporations exist.  :)

As for your bit about MEII, I'm all like "wut" so you'll have to explain yourself there.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Then I'll be "dellusional" (Sic!). Happily.

You know, when it boils down to elitist comments like this, normal "discussion" is no longer possible. 

Well said, Persephone.  The opening assumption of the thread was also wrong, of course.  But the haters can't see past their own anger at the death of their beloved genre conventions.  They will come around in time.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

Critcis and sales clearly point to the fact that DA2 did not really improve on much of anything in the RPG genre, you are just full of fail, I am glad however that small minded individuals like yourself are in the minority and the game might actually go back to being an RPG game and not an action game.

You have no proof for your assertions.  :P:P  And you went ad hominem.  Haha!   Don't hold your breath that BG/NWN/DAO games are making a come back.  The Don't Change Things crowd will buy one $60 title every five years, while the Gimmie A Fun Game With a Sweet Story crowd will be buying three $60 games in that time period.  Guess who gonna win there?  Answer:  People who play both cause they enjoy both. 

You are the one who is covering their ears and going la la la la, if people arent buying the sequal of a AAA game at the same pace they bought the original, its failing to keep its core audience while bringing in new players, this is not the sign of a vast improvement in RPG gaming.

You lose.

You still have no proofs.  :lol:  

Modifié par RinpocheSchnozberry, 04 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[AkiKishi]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Then I'll be "dellusional" (Sic!). Happily.

You know, when it boils down to elitist comments like this, normal "discussion" is no longer possible. 

What is elitist about it? 

DA2 is a shadow of the game DA was, whether you like the game or not.

[Dragoonlordz]

Please no-one respond to Rinpoch he is doing what he does best, baiting.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Then I'll be "dellusional" (Sic!). Happily.

You know, when it boils down to elitist comments like this, normal "discussion" is no longer possible. 

What is elitist about it? 

DA2 is a shadow of the game DA was, whether you like the game or not.

In your opinion. *Sighs* It is not a universal truth. I love both games and would not want to be without either. Calling people "dellusional" because they don't think DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt is ridiculous, never mind rude. Am I calling you delusional for hating a game I love? No. Why? It's perfectly within your rights and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the game at all.

[Serpieri Nei]

Alternate Appearance Pack #1
and
Alternate Appearance Pack #2

Wonder, how long before we see this in DA:2

[Cybermortis]

1; Discounting user reviews is daft, unless you are talking about less than 10 reviews. Beyond that the extreme review scores given cancel each other out.

All sites are showing DA2 as the lowest user rated game from; Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age;Origins and Mass Effect 2. Even Awakenings is showing equal to better scores than DA2.

Note that the scores appear to be somewhat higher for consoles than the PC, I'm guessing that the game is more console friendly and/or PC players have higher demands - ironic given than PC games cost less.

2; Agreed that 'fixes' don't always - and in fact rarely do - specifically and solely mean major bugs. Usually they are minor problems such as subtitles not matching what is said.
That said I'm not aware of a game needing 100 fixes in a first patch. The only game I can think of that had this many was Fallout 2, which had/has a fan-patch dealing with some 150 fixes - none of which were critical bugs.

3; The price drop is real, and here in the UK isn't related to sales. The specific amount varies from store to store and different locations. On average the major stores are selling the game for around £28, which is less than the retail price of £35. However some smaller chains have in some places lowered the price to as little as £18.
The price drop for the larger stores appeared after a week, and none of them were having sales at the time.

Also worth considering that the sales figures don't (and can't) take into account people who have returned the game or traded it in already.

[Persephone]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Alternate Appearance Pack #1
and
Alternate Appearance Pack #2

Wonder, how long before we see this in DA:2

Well, I won't be buying them, I can promise you that much.

[Cutlass Jack]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Alternate Appearance Pack #1
and
Alternate Appearance Pack #2

Wonder, how long before we see this in DA:2

Both of those were miles ahead of the Feastday pack. That made Horse Armor look good. So they can only go up from there.

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Then I'll be "dellusional" (Sic!). Happily.

You know, when it boils down to elitist comments like this, normal "discussion" is no longer possible. 

What is elitist about it? 

DA2 is a shadow of the game DA was, whether you like the game or not.

In your opinion. *Sighs* It is not a universal truth. I love both games and would not want to be without either. Calling people "dellusional" because they don't think DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt is ridiculous, never mind rude. Am I calling you delusional for hating a game I love? No. Why? It's perfectly within your rights and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the game at all.

Can you two please take it elsewhere maybe messages between yourselves if just going to argue about definitions and generalisations (both of you are coming across as angry in regard to each other's response's and it's derailing the thread).

I kind of expected Rinpoch to troll this thread because that's what he is best known for on these forums but I expected better from you two. Could you at least keep it civil please if wish to debate that issue.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 avril 2011 - 08:01 .

[Persephone]

Cybermortis wrote...

1; Discounting user reviews is daft, unless you are talking about less than 10 reviews. Beyond that the extreme review scores given cancel each other out.

All sites are showing DA2 as the lowest user rated game from; Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age;Origins and Mass Effect 2. Even Awakenings is showing equal to better scores than DA2.

Note that the scores appear to be somewhat higher for consoles than the PC, I'm guessing that the game is more console friendly and/or PC players have higher demands - ironic given than PC games cost less.

2; Agreed that 'fixes' don't always - and in fact rarely do - specifically and solely mean major bugs. Usually they are minor problems such as subtitles not matching what is said.
That said I'm not aware of a game needing 100 fixes in a first patch. The only game I can think of that had this many was Fallout 2, which had/has a fan-patch dealing with some 150 fixes - none of which were critical bugs.

3; The price drop is real, and here in the UK isn't related to sales. The specific amount varies from store to store and different locations. On average the major stores are selling the game for around £28, which is less than the retail price of £35. However some smaller chains have in some places lowered the price to as little as £18.
The price drop for the larger stores appeared after a week, and none of them were having sales at the time.

Also worth considering that the sales figures don't (and can't) take into account people who have returned the game or traded it in already.

1) I don't give a damn about user reviews. Never have.

2) It doesn't need 100+ fixes but we're getting them and that's actually a very good thing, given how badly DAO was patched.

3) I only saw the Amazon Spring Sale. Haven't looked up other because I really don't care THAT much.

[AkiKishi]

Persephone wrote...

In your opinion. *Sighs* It is not a universal truth. I love both games and would not want to be without either. Calling people "dellusional" because they don't think DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt is ridiculous, never mind rude. Am I calling you delusional for hating a game I love? No. Why? It's perfectly within your rights and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the game at all.

I'm afraid this goes way beyond just my opinion.

Simple question then. Is Biowares reputation higher or lower after DA2 in the RPG community,than it previously was?

[PlumPaul93]

Persephone wrote...

Cybermortis wrote...

1; Discounting user reviews is daft, unless you are talking about less than 10 reviews. Beyond that the extreme review scores given cancel each other out.

All sites are showing DA2 as the lowest user rated game from; Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age;Origins and Mass Effect 2. Even Awakenings is showing equal to better scores than DA2.

Note that the scores appear to be somewhat higher for consoles than the PC, I'm guessing that the game is more console friendly and/or PC players have higher demands - ironic given than PC games cost less.

2; Agreed that 'fixes' don't always - and in fact rarely do - specifically and solely mean major bugs. Usually they are minor problems such as subtitles not matching what is said.
That said I'm not aware of a game needing 100 fixes in a first patch. The only game I can think of that had this many was Fallout 2, which had/has a fan-patch dealing with some 150 fixes - none of which were critical bugs.

3; The price drop is real, and here in the UK isn't related to sales. The specific amount varies from store to store and different locations. On average the major stores are selling the game for around £28, which is less than the retail price of £35. However some smaller chains have in some places lowered the price to as little as £18.
The price drop for the larger stores appeared after a week, and none of them were having sales at the time.

Also worth considering that the sales figures don't (and can't) take into account people who have returned the game or traded it in already.

1) I don't give a damn about user reviews. Never have.

2) It doesn't need 100+ fixes but we're getting them and that's actually a very good thing, given how badly DAO was patched.

3) I only saw the Amazon Spring Sale. Haven't looked up other because I really don't care THAT much.

How so?

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt. It's dellusional to think otherwise.

Then I'll be "dellusional" (Sic!). Happily.

You know, when it boils down to elitist comments like this, normal "discussion" is no longer possible. 

What is elitist about it? 

DA2 is a shadow of the game DA was, whether you like the game or not.

In your opinion. *Sighs* It is not a universal truth. I love both games and would not want to be without either. Calling people "dellusional" because they don't think DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt is ridiculous, never mind rude. Am I calling you delusional for hating a game I love? No. Why? It's perfectly within your rights and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the game at all.

Can you two please take it elsewhere maybe messages between yourselves if just going to argue about definitions and generalisations (both of you are coming across as angry in regard to each other's response's and it's derailing the thread).

I kind of expected Rinpoch to troll this thread because that's what he is best known for on these forums but I expected better from you two. Could you at least keep it civil please if wish to debate that issue.

I'll apologize for derailing the thread. But I don't think my posts lacked civility. (My first response was snarky, I'll admit that, but it was not rude) Anyway, sorry, didn't mean to derail your thread.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

In your opinion. *Sighs* It is not a universal truth. I love both games and would not want to be without either. Calling people "dellusional" because they don't think DA2 dragged the DA IP through the dirt is ridiculous, never mind rude. Am I calling you delusional for hating a game I love? No. Why? It's perfectly within your rights and doesn't influence my enjoyment of the game at all.

I'm afraid this goes way beyond just my opinion.

Simple question then. Is Biowares reputation higher or lower after DA2 in the RPG community,than it previously was?

I don't care about the so called "RPG Community". Which of them anyway? There are hundreds.