236 réponses à ce sujet

[javierabegazo]

The only reason after all why adrenaline burst is so "overpowered" as you say, is because of the damage upgrade applied to your guns.

But you have to realize that people like to play the game in other ways other than "Kill that guy as fast as humanly possible".

[sonofalich]

i don't care much about balance in a single player game. this isn't multi player so nothing is really broken or unbalanced.

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

I think you're making a big deal out of something that isn't really that big of a problem- but you are right. Most powers in this game are mainly used for 'stripping' protection off enemies so that your guns can do the talking.

I don't think so  With adrenaline burst, I don't even need to strip protections 100% of the time. All I need to do is fire. I will even have the wrong squad ammo type being used, but it doesn't matter. Adrenaline Burst is the ability you use to do basically everything. 

Of course, you'll have an even easier time if you use overload and warp... but you honestly don't need to. Health/Shields/Barriers... it all goes down equally fast with a soldier.

[javierabegazo]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well, I don't think the problem is the class, really.  It's the overpowered DLC weapons, like the Mattock and the Geth Plasma Shotgun.  Give these weapons to any class, and the game is easier.  Adrenaline Rush just exacerbates the issue.  The ability is borderline broken already with the absurd levels of power it provides, but then add the DLC weapons and the game becomes a complete cakewalk.  It's gotten to the point that I don't use the Mattock or Geth Plasma Shotgun on Shepard anymore, just to give myself that little extra challenge.  The Phalanx and Incisor are fairly balanced, and the Locust is on the fence.

Try swapping to the Vindicator (or the Revenant once you can get it), and see if you still find it that much easier.  Oh, and you could always give your Engineer the Mattock as well, post Collector Ship.

I give my infiltrator the Widow, the Mattock, and the Geth plasma shotgun

Now to get one thing out of the way, Yes I know it's overkill and makes the game easy yada yada, but here's my piece: the game's already easy because I know the game mechanics like the back of my hand. I've done 5+ playthroughs so it SHOULD be easy for me.

Now that that's out of the way, here's why I give my Infiltrator that load out

Widow: Because it's a sexy sniper rifle that does what a sniper rifle should, a loud crack and a body falls to the floor, no "oh but what about protection!" nonsense, the bullet goes in and out and leaves a nice hole

Mattock: I love the audio effects and visual look of this gun out of any weapon in the whole game, and it fires as fast as I pull the trigger,  and it's one of the most accurate guns in the game, can cover near any range.

Geth Shotgun: Utilizing the Cloaking-Shotgun Charging glitch, I can have Invisibility for as long as I want, which is absolutely wonderful for Role Playing reasons

[egervari]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well, I don't think the problem is the class, really.  It's the overpowered DLC weapons, like the Mattock and the Geth Plasma Shotgun.  Give these weapons to any class, and the game is easier.  Adrenaline Rush just exacerbates the issue.  The ability is borderline broken already with the absurd levels of power it provides, but then add the DLC weapons and the game becomes a complete cakewalk.  It's gotten to the point that I don't use the Mattock or Geth Plasma Shotgun on Shepard anymore, just to give myself that little extra challenge.  The Phalanx and Incisor are fairly balanced, and the Locust is on the fence.

Try swapping to the Vindicator (or the Revenant once you can get it), and see if you still find it that much easier.  Oh, and you could always give your Engineer the Mattock as well, post Collector Ship.

That could be it, although the Collective Assault Rifle is still pretty good. I find that with that, or the Matlock, the game is pretty easy.

Even still, this just highlights the problem that biotic powers/classes are gimped because other than getting their research upgrades, there's nothing you can do to improve the situation.

[javierabegazo]

egervari wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I think you're making a big deal out of something that isn't really that big of a problem- but you are right. Most powers in this game are mainly used for 'stripping' protection off enemies so that your guns can do the talking.

I don't think so  With adrenaline burst, I don't even need to strip protections 100% of the time. All I need to do is fire. I will even have the wrong squad ammo type being used, but it doesn't matter. Adrenaline Burst is the ability you use to do basically everything. 

Of course, you'll have an even easier time if you use overload and warp... but you honestly don't need to. Health/Shields/Barriers... it all goes down equally fast with a soldier.

You don't understand, I was agreeing with you and you just stated what I did. The reason why AB is so strong is that it makes it so that your gun punches through anything and makes it so that you don't need to supplement your battle strategy with other Powers. This is the problem with AB, it gives a massive DMG bonus and has a ridiculously fast recharge time

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

The only reason after all why adrenaline burst is so "overpowered" as you say, is because of the damage upgrade applied to your guns.

But you have to realize that people like to play the game in other ways other than "Kill that guy as fast as humanly possible".

I don't think every class 'should' be able to kill everything as fast as possible. Some classes might prefer survivability but can't kill as fast. Or maybe the class offers some other kind of advantage - like a cleric in Baldur's Gate - that offets their lack of offensive power. This kind of class balance is totally fine.

What is not cool is that we have a class that kills extremely fast AND has amazing survivability. The only times I ever feared for my life were against the Gunship in Samara's mission and Husks in the Horizon mission - which you actually need a strategy that utilizes the environment or an approach to the battle to win. Otherwise, ever other battle can be won without thinking for the most part.

Modifié par egervari, 04 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

You don't understand, I was agreeing with you and you just stated what I did. The reason why AB is so strong is that it makes it so that your gun punches through anything and makes it so that you don't need to supplement your battle strategy with other Powers. This is the problem with AB, it gives a massive DMG bonus and has a ridiculously fast recharge time

Yeah, this why I hope the game designers are really looking at the game and redesigning it. One can only hope. I don't know how much they can improve upon the gameplay in many other areas. Fixing the combat and class balance would actually make ME3 golden in my book while taking the best elements of the previous games and not changing all that much.

[Bamboozalist]

My only problem with the soldier is that HAB is 140% extra damage where as A-Cloak for the Infiltrator is only like 65% (I'm not booting up my game to check and I'm too lazy to go look it up), I personally think they should be switched, especially since you only get 1 shot with A-Cloak but up to like 5 with HAB, more if you're using a spam weapon like the Mattock.

[javierabegazo]

egervari wrote...


What is not cool is that we have a class that kills extremely fast AND has amazing survivability.

Granted, but you basically just described the Soldier class archetype, a guy who can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'
 Also you should factor in that there's a high probability that you are vastly more skilled at ME2/ video games in general than the average gamer and that should be something to take note of.

I can go around posting that "Vanguard is so OP'ed!!" but to someone who doesn't know how to utilize the class, they wouldn't get it. Sometimes, people just got "mad skillz"

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

Granted, but you basically just described the Soldier class archetype, a guy who can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'
 Also you should factor in that there's a high probability that you are vastly more skilled at ME2/ video games in general than the average gamer and that should be something to take note of.

I can go around posting that "Vanguard is so OP'ed!!" but to someone who doesn't know how to utilize the class, they wouldn't get it. Sometimes, people just got "mad skillz"

Well, I think they could have toned down his ranged combat effectiveness honestly. Like the above poster said, the infilitrator should have been the class to do insane single-target damage. The soldier should have been 2nd best, but still far below infiltrator just because of his survivability.

I also don't think I have "mad skillz" I am about as good as Average Gatzby. Probably worse.

Having said that, when it comes to balance, you should balance the classes anticipating them to be played perfectly. This is the only way to properly balance it. So even if a class is "easier to play" (which some people might initially say is overpowered), it will never be more powerful than a harder class to play when played well. This is balance done right.

[javierabegazo]

Bamboozalist wrote...

My only problem with the soldier is that HAB is 140% extra damage where as A-Cloak for the Infiltrator is only like 65% (I'm not booting up my game to check and I'm too lazy to go look it up), I personally think they should be switched, especially since you only get 1 shot with A-Cloak but up to like 5 with HAB, more if you're using a spam weapon like the Mattock.

Just wanted to add this bit,


"While the Widow Soldier, can actually generate equal/greater dps than
the Widow Infiltrator, it doesn't have the kind of mobility or tactical
finesse the Infiltrator has. IMO the Widow is more like a giant cannon
in the hands of a soldier, rather than a efficient, surgical weapon like
it is for the Infiltrator."

http://xrl.in/8p9d

[Bamboozalist]

javierabegazo wrote...

"While the Widow Soldier, can actually generate equal/greater dps than
the Widow Infiltrator, it doesn't have the kind of mobility or tactical
finesse the Infiltrator has. IMO the Widow is more like a giant cannon
in the hands of a soldier, rather than a efficient, surgical weapon like
it is for the Infiltrator."

http://xrl.in/8p9d

I completely disagree, HAB allows for crazy battle field manueverability, you can be just as, if not more surgical with the soldier because the 140% bonus allows you to 1-2 shot the things that you would be surgically removing on Insanity, like Scions. Were as an Infiltrator would take 2/3-4 shots. Also HAB has half the cooldown of A-Cloak which makes up for it's shorter duration.

Also it's 75% with A-Cloak not 65% I stopped being lazy and looked it up.

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

Just wanted to add this bit,

"While the Widow Soldier, can actually generate equal/greater dps than
the Widow Infiltrator, it doesn't have the kind of mobility or tactical
finesse the Infiltrator has. IMO the Widow is more like a giant cannon
in the hands of a soldier, rather than a efficient, surgical weapon like
it is for the Infiltrator."

http://xrl.in/8p9d

Ultimately, it would have been better to still give the infiltrator more damage, but make him lightly armored or have poor shields to compensate for his powerful killing ability. This would have properly balanced him.

The soldier who does less damage than an Infiltrator could have been a "safer but less dps" alternative instead. This design would have been true to the names/intention and would have been superior with respect to balance.

Modifié par egervari, 04 avril 2011 - 05:41 .

[javierabegazo]

Also wanted to add this from that same thread

"I think Soldier should have the highest weapon damage output. It makes sense. All the other classes have some sort of utility beyond their guns. Soldier doesn't. Extremely high weapon damage would compensate for that."

I kind of agree with this. Vanguards can ignore cover, Engineers can play with Aggro, Sentinels are walking Tanks, Infiltrators are sneaky nightmares for Geth, Adepts have crazy Crowd Control, and Soldiers can just chew their way through. I think that the classes, all things considered, are balanced

[javierabegazo]

Another thing worth mentioning is that the Soldier, unlike every other class, is heavily dependent on Ammo. no Ammo means you better hope you're not facing 5+ collectors

[Kane-Corr]

I have to say though, that the whole Collecter Ship mission was nearly impossible on Insanity without some form of Inferno ammo ability. That is something that the Soldier utilizes. It took me a while to realize that Mordin and his, well I forgot what his ability was with the fire bit...but Mordin's ability helped me to finish that mission on Insanity while playing an Infiltrator.

Then, I replayed that mission with my Soldier on Insanity and Inferno ammo...and BAM...WAYYYY easier than Infiltrator.

So I mean, Soldier is all about the craftiness. It's not all that bad.


-pssst, it's "Incinerate"

Modifié par javierabegazo, 04 avril 2011 - 06:00 .

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

Also wanted to add this from that same thread

"I think Soldier should have the highest weapon damage output. It makes sense. All the other classes have some sort of utility beyond their guns. Soldier doesn't. Extremely high weapon damage would compensate for that."

I kind of agree with this. Vanguards can ignore cover, Engineers can play with Aggro, Sentinels are walking Tanks, Infiltrators are sneaky nightmares for Geth, Adepts have crazy Crowd Control, and Soldiers can just chew their way through. I think that the classes, all things considered, are balanced

I don't think it makes sense for the soldier to have the highest weapon output. Even if it's realistic that they have the highest damage, it is not good balance. Basically, the soldier class is good at everything - getting rid of all types of protections, doing great single-target damage, killing enemies quickly (sometimes 2 enemies in a single burst), it can kill short, medium and long range, surviving, etc. It's only drawback? It is useless when it doesn't have ammo.

I am now about 1/2 through the game, and I have never even come close to being dangerously low on ammo. If you balance out your weapon usage, this will never happen.

While I think that each class has a niche role and that's good in theory, it is not balanced in practice.

Modifié par egervari, 04 avril 2011 - 06:37 .

[termokanden]

egervari wrote...

I am playing Soldier in ME2 on Insanity, a class I never played before, and it's totally broken. Every encounter is about twice as easy as it was with an Engineer last time I went through... and my Engineer was just Hardcore.

Compared to the Adept, the Solider is vastly better. Maybe the Adept eventually matures into a powerful class, but in the first 1/3 of the game, I think the Adept is very weak and the Soldier is easily overpowered.

Adepts do indeed start out weak but become much more powerful. Sadly you can't get a proper amount of biotics upgrades before Horizon, and this makes adepts substantially weaker in the beginning. My experience is that they are very good once you get the cooldown upgrade.

I was playing one on insanity. Before Horizon it felt like a really weak class. After I got upgrades, it seemed like I could just walk around in the open because my crowd control was so good. And warp bombs become truly powerful as well, even on insanity.

I did Wrex's, Jack's and most of the Horizon without dying. It was only until you faced 10 Husks and 2 Scions where I died 2 times. I've always had a problem with that part of the game, but I actually finally figured out how to *really* beat it confidently this time around. LOL. Of course, it could have just been easier because I was a Soldier.

This is a part of the game where infiltrators truly shine. This fight is absolutely trivial with Cloak.

In general though I agree with you. Soldiers are overpowered. I realize not everyone plays the game in the same way, but Adrenaline Rush really is a bit too insane. It is without the Mattock as well I think, although yes that one works a little bit too well with AR.

Then, I replayed that mission with my Soldier on Insanity and Inferno ammo...and BAM...WAYYYY easier than Infiltrator.

Now try it with squad cryo. I find husks very easy to beat that way with my infiltrator.

Modifié par termokanden, 04 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Dallas118]

egervari wrote...

I don't think it makes sense for the soldier to have the highest weapon output. Even if it's realistic that they have the highest damage, it is not good balance. Basically, the soldier class is good at everything - getting rid of all types of protections, doing great single-target damage, killing enemies quickly (sometimes 2 enemies in a single burst), surviving, etc. It's only drawback? It is useless when it doesn't have ammo.

I am now about 1/2 through the game, and I have never even come close to being dangerously low on ammo. If you balance out your weapon usage, this will never happen.

While I think that each class has a niche role and that's good in theory, it is not balanced in practice.

Soldier plays this way. If you find it overpowered or way too easy, don't play it. Or you can choose to play it without adrenaline rush, or use only one weapon. There are lots of ways to find out your personal balance.
Expressions such as "balancing" or "broken" have absolutely no sense in a single player experience in which there is no opportunities for classes/players to face each other.
RPGs are not fighting games, where it's really important to have balanced characters.

[termokanden]

Dallas118 wrote...

Soldier plays this way. If you find it overpowered or way too easy, don't play it. Or you can choose to play it without adrenaline rush, or use only one weapon. There are lots of ways to find out your personal balance.
Expressions such as "balancing" or "broken" have absolutely no sense in a single player experience in which there is no opportunities for classes/players to face each other.

I disagree. class balance is less important than it would be for PvP, but that doesn't mean it should be completely ignored.

[egervari]

Dallas118 wrote...

Soldier plays this way. If you find it overpowered or way too easy, don't play it. Or you can choose to play it without adrenaline rush, or use only one weapon. There are lots of ways to find out your personal balance.
Expressions such as "balancing" or "broken" have absolutely no sense in a single player experience in which there is no opportunities for classes/players to face each other.
RPGs are not fighting games, where it's really important to have balanced characters.

That's essentially why I did this post Dallas... to illustrate this balance problem. When a class is this overpowered... sure, I can make a personal decision to avoid playing it... but that doesn't fix the problem - the design flaw still exists in the game. I think it's important to recognize that this really *is* a problem - and that it would be best to correct this sort of design flaw in future games.

I've already commented on your single-player rebuttal. Read above. My argument to this rebuttal is correct.

Think of it this way, an unsuspecting player has no idea which class is stronger or weaker... so he/she just picks whatever class sounds appealing to them. And lo-and-behond, the game is now incredibly easy (unsatisfying) or incredibly hard (also unsatisfying). How is a player suppose to know these consequences when they pick their class? Doesn't that sound rediculous? It doesn't matter if this problem has been in past games - that's only more examples of design flaws.

The class you pick should *NOT* be a difficulty setting. The class you pick should be how you desire to play the game. If you want to increase/decrease difficulty, then you should adjust the difficulty setting - not your class!

Modifié par egervari, 04 avril 2011 - 06:59 .

[CroGamer002]

It's not broken, you're just better with Soldier.

I'm far better with Engineer and Infiltrator then with Soldier on Insanity.
Maybe with Sentinel too.

[egervari]

Mesina2 wrote...

It's not broken, you're just better with Soldier.

I'm far better with Engineer and Infiltrator then with Soldier on Insanity.
Maybe with Sentinel too.

With all due respect, logic is proving my case.

I also don't think I have any special skills playing shooters or shooting classes. In fact, I have a rich history of 20 years of gaming playing casters and the like.