236 réponses à ce sujet

[Stick668]

Sorry about that. Just figured multiplayer game references were called for, since we're kind of talking about PvP balance. In a single-player PvE game.

Oh, hey! I appear to have TLDR'd my entire point.

Dang it all. I had more fun being all rambly.

Modifié par Stick668, 04 avril 2011 - 12:11 .

[termokanden]

Are you claiming there's no such thing as singleplayer balance at all?

Singleplayer balance does matter. For example, Concussive Shot is horrible, and Adrenaline Rush is on the same cooldown. This means lots of us would never dream of even using CS. Our loss you could say, but I still think more balance would encourage build variations.

[jamesp81]

I disagree. Sentinel is the most broken class.

Sentinel with lvl 2 Throw, Heavy Warp, Assault Armor, lvl 3 Overload, Guardian spec, and lvl4 armor piercing ammo for a bous power, is a walking death machine. Take sniper training on the collector ship and use the Viper for long range fights. Use the Locust (which is really an assault rifle even though the game classifies it as an SMG) for medium range and CQC. Carry the Cain for your heavy weapon.

Assault Armor + reduced cooldowns + emergency shielding + damage protection upgrades means you can just lol at badguys when you they shoot you in the head with a rocket.

Soldier only becomes really powerful, IMO, if you combine Adrenaline Rush with the Mattock and/or Widow.

[jamesp81]

Kronner wrote...

egervari wrote...

The reason I bring this up is that balance is logic. It is not about preferring crowd control or not - because depending on the game, it can be balanced, underpowered or overpowered. Emotional subjectivity of whether you enjoy this style of play is entirely irrelevant.

Well, Soldier is one of my most favourite classes, only Vanguard is clearly ahead for me.
You know, not all Soldiers are the same. E.g. Revenant + Viper Soldier is different from Mattock + Widow etc.

And like I said, what YOU might consider better/broken, is not better/broken for everyone. How is that so hard to understand?

Agreed on that.  There are about 4 different "classes" of soldier I've played.

[sonsonthebia07]

I don't think I ever died once while playing sentinel on insanity. If any class is overpowered, I would say it would be sentinel. They are way too durable, plus the shield explosion is nasty and you can reapply it rather soon...you don't even really need to fire your weapon (bit of an exaggeration) to beat it, you can just keep reapplying the shield.

But soldier is very powerful with the time slowing nonsense.

[Irrepressible]

termokanden wrote...

Are you claiming there's no such thing as singleplayer balance at all?

Singleplayer balance does matter. For example, Concussive Shot is horrible, and Adrenaline Rush is on the same cooldown. This means lots of us would never dream of even using CS. Our loss you could say, but I still think more balance would encourage build variations.

Lots of us would never dream of using CS because it's on the same cooldown? That's an assumption, an assumption that would be correct if people were only interested in finding the quickest way to beat the game... but then why would you? What do you gain from using only the most powerful abilities/weapons? 

All this complaining about balance, but the only person it affects is the sole player, and that balance is decided by the player based on how they choose to play the game. Don't like that Adrenaline Burst is overpowered? Then don't use it much.

To use it a lot and then complain that the game is easy because of it is just farcical.

[Stick668]

termokanden wrote...

Are you claiming there's no such thing as singleplayer balance at all?

Singleplayer balance does matter. For example, Concussive Shot is horrible, and Adrenaline Rush is on the same cooldown. This means lots of us would never dream of even using CS. Our loss you could say, but I still think more balance would encourage build variations.

Alrighty, back to the rambly.

Of course there's single-player balance. But balance vs. everything the single player encounters - and a balanced (equally high!) level of enjoyable gameplay across classes seems to be most important to me.

I got a bit contentious when the term "useless" was employed, since... well, it's blatantly untrue.

(And it amused me that the argument type was a common - and perfectly valid one - in pretty much any "comp shooter" discussion. I just stuck with the example I'm most familiar with. Because the similarities are rather striking.)

Same reaction to use of "broken" and "what's the point of any other class?" 

All the classes work. And they play differently. To me, this is more important than power levels. Did I say this before? Feels like I did.

On "build variety"... I dunno. I guess the single-cooldown mechanic is what leads to all classes relying mainly on their (by design most powerful) "specials". That's its downside. I still prefer it to "fire off everything at once, repeat". But if your point was "separate the signature move cooldown from all the others"... hey, that sounds pretty good. (I have no real opinion on the situational usefulness of CS. Well, beyond "Garrus slams people into the far wall once Jack's lifted them off their feet.")

Oh, and I should've asked this earlier:

Do you (as in, folks-what-care-about-Soldier-being-"OP"*) find it the most enjoyable class? Why?

This is not me being glib. I'd like to know about them different strokes.

________________________________________

* Sorry about the "quotes", but I've developed an allergy to that particular acronym.

Modifié par Stick668, 04 avril 2011 - 12:51 .

[termokanden]

Stick668 wrote...

I got a bit contentious when the term "useless" was employed, since... well, it's blatantly untrue.

I never agreed with that part either. All classes are powerful. But I still think powers could be balanced better. My favorite example is still Concussive Shot vs Adrenaline Rush. One is too weak and the other too strong. I believe soldiers would be more fun to play if Adrenaline Rush didn't dominate every other power.

Same reaction to use of "broken" and "what's the point of any other class?"

Yes. That's taking it way too far. But balance still matters to me.

Do you (as in, folks-what-care-about-Soldier-being-"OP"*) find it the most enjoyable class? Why?

I do not. I find vanguards and engineers most fun. Soldiers are in my mind a very powerful one-trick pony. You could say the same about vanguards, but I think it requires more skill to play.

Actually what annoys me most is power balance. I probably shouldn't even involve myself in arguments about which class is better. But it matters a lot to me that powers are correctly balanced. Soldiers being overpowered through Adrenaline Rush actually makes me want to avoid the class.

Modifié par termokanden, 04 avril 2011 - 01:31 .

[DaBigDragon]

Soldier's not broken, it has always been the easiest class to play. It can cover every range with the use of all 4 guns plus heavy weapon. That alone gives it an advantage over all the other classes.

[ashwind]

Bamboozalist wrote...
Right but Infiltrators can't 1 shot heavy targets like Soldiers can which is my point, you think the Inflitrator would be the pricision class capable of taking down the heavy threatening targets with almost surgical pricision which is why I think AB and Cloak need their damage boosts switched around.

Notice the name "Inflitrator"? They infiltrate - hence the cloaking.

If they are meant to "assassinate" targets, they would be "assassins" I suppose... 

Soldiers do not have the ability to get out of hot spots like the infiltrator can - cloak & run. Yes, they are "easier" to play (only in the beginning imo). While a soldier is firing with AR - they take damage, Infiltrator can move to a nice spot - aim & fire.

Soldiers are definitely not broken - it is easier because of the range of weapons they can use from the beginning.

After watching all the videos posted by so many players all this while... I can only conclude that every class is equally balanced - each players just play some classes better than others - depending on their playstyle.

 p/s: Lets not bring up the no slow down Mattock AR thingie

Modifié par ashwind, 04 avril 2011 - 01:45 .

[Dallas118]

Stick668 wrote...

 "Useless"? As in "without use"? As in, "not possible to complete the game with"?

The Soldier is "nerfed" by its inherent Less Fun Gameplay. (Suuubjective, but there is only one person in the room. So to speak.)

... funny thing is, your argument is entirely valid for a multiplayer shooter - even a specific one - where Must Be Optimized is frequently the only way to avoid camping the respawn queue. 

Here? "I have to be the killingest killer possible" is a playstyle choice.
There may be people who've "had fun" and "won" the game while playing one of the "useless" classes.
Are you sure you didn't take a wrong turn near the TF2 forums? 

Have I offended your favorite class or something?
Of course I did not mean anything so extreme. I played all the classes ... Don't worry. I have no doubt that they are fun. Only talked about the fact that the soldier is "stronger", or more user friendly if you prefer. But, as I said before, I consider this a fault to be attributed more to the gameplay than anything else.
Hmm... And I don't play FPS. Spare me your disingenuous assertions, please.

[JamieCOTC]

It's not broken. It's just easier. I would not be surprised if Soldier was made this way intentionally as the class does offer a more "shooter friendly" play style.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 04 avril 2011 - 02:22 .

[Warlocomotf]

I think the idea that "Well soldiers have high survivabilit because they're soldiers" is a weak argument, I see no reason why a soldier's typical load out would be very effective against biotic damage- and figure it might actually be particularly vulnerable to tech attacks.

A biotic should be weak against bullets however tech attacks shouldn't hurt them much since they don't use much of any tech. Biotics should be average/strong vs soldier/tech, normal against biotics.

An engineer should be strong against soldiers, weak against biotics, neutral against self, and should take little damage from bullets but average/high damage from biotic and tech.

Another part of the problem is global cooldown, because of the global cooldown whichever class has the most powerful 1 power automatically becomes the most powerful. That is because whatever other powers you have are downplayed by having a stronger alternative.

And lastly, DLC only really empowers soldiers- there should've been DLC that provides new "cool" omnitools and such that allow techs and biotics to either gain new powers, empower their current powers or enhance their powers in some way.

[Someone With Mass]

The only time I died as a Sentinel on Insanity was totally my own fault. Since then, I don't think I've died a single time, because when I'm at low health, I can just activate my Tech Armor and pretend like nothing happened.

Soldier is just boring. Has no strategy besides "shoot stuff until it's dead".

[Youknow]

Eh, I wouldn't say broken, but it is kinda fun.

[Gorrum]

Soldier is easy because instead of relying on biotics or tech, he relies on his weapons.

That should be easy enough to figure out.. a soldier is nothing without his guns.. hello?

He only uses adrenaline rush often because that's amongst his most helpful abilities.

OP, soldier is "easier" (not broken) because you just point and shoot. You don't need to keep looking at the cooldown bar. A soldier runs in guns blazing, whereas another class might strategize and BAM! watch everything die quickly.

Or... maybe you're just bad

[Gorrum]

also.. according to ME canon... wasn't Shepard a Soldier??

[cedgedc]

Were this a multiplayer game, I would support the OP more. However, it's not. If you want a greater challenge, then it is up to you to choose the more challenging class.

Mass Effect like any classic RPG offers different playstyles with varrying degrees of complexity. The 'Warrior' class in rpg's has always had the stigma of being the most straight forward class for beginners. It's well rounded, can handle anything that comes its way.

It was the same for me in ME1. I played soldier and crushed, where my adept and engineer would struggle. If you want a greater challenge, you need to pick something that is more niche, less well rounded.. with obvious strengths and more obvious weaknesses.

Bioware needs to include that more straightforward class so that the game is still accessible to the casual player who doesn't want to deal with having funky magical powers.

If there was a need for pvp ballance, I would say this is a major issue. Seeing as there isn't though, i'd say just try to enjoy yourself and if you find the game to easy, play a class you feel will be more difficult. Challenge yourself.

[javierabegazo]

Just wanted to say that the thread is going well with relatively few heated arguments. Please lets try to keep it that way and express our different opinions in an intelligent and nonabrasive way

[Stick668]

JamieCOTC wrote...

It's not broken. It's just easier. I would not be surprised if Soldier was made this way intentionally as the class does offer a more "shooter friendly" play style.

Well, power-usage (aim in general direction of baddie, fling biotics, drones, whatnot) is technically easier than the traditional "shooter" skill set. (Involving rapid aim and pixel-precision and stuff.) 'Course, bullet-time lowers the demands of that.

Still, shooter friends don't tend to object to a high skill threshold, as long as the skill ceiling - maximum effectiveness - brushes against the sky. Which is why "everyone" in FPS-land likes to be a sniper. And why most of them accomplish exactly nothing. They never get past the unforgiving threshold. (Me? I know my limits by now. Give me something do-or-die, in-the-thick-of-it, i.e. Vanguard-like.)

If I had a point, it may have gotten away from me. But I had fun on the tangent. Sorry!

Dallas118 wrote...

Have I offended your favorite class or something?
Only talked about the fact that the soldier is "stronger", or more user friendly if you prefer.

Heh. Nah, just my delicate sense of sense and propriety. (I think you used the phrase "makes all other classes useless", which seemed a bit excessive. And there was coffee involved.)

Hmm... And I don't play FPS. Spare me your disingenuous assertions, please.

I suppose "balance discussions" get a bit like fast-food franchises. (Seen one...)

I'll stop being contrary. Balance is a good thing. The sky might not be falling, but there could certainly be more of it. Balance. Not falling skies. Yes.

Agreement! \\o/

Modifié par Stick668, 04 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[javierabegazo]

cedgedc wrote...



Bioware needs to include that more straightforward class so that the game is still accessible to the casual player who doesn't want to deal with having funky magical powers.

And Ultimately, I think this is what happened. BioWare knows that not every person who picks up a copy of ME2 is going to invest the time to really understand the battle mechanics and that there WILL be casual gamers who will still want to play ME2.

I think we're talking about this issue as if it were an oversight of BioWare's, and not just intentional.


Lets bring Christina Norman in here

[Dave666]

javierabegazo wrote...

cedgedc wrote...



Bioware needs to include that more straightforward class so that the game is still accessible to the casual player who doesn't want to deal with having funky magical powers.

And Ultimately, I think this is what happened. BioWare knows that not every person who picks up a copy of ME2 is going to invest the time to really understand the battle mechanics and that there WILL be casual gamers who will still want to play ME2.

I think we're talking about this issue as if it were an oversight of BioWare's, and not just intentional.


Lets bring Christina Norman in here

The thing is, if this is indeed the case then it kinda takes some of the achievement away for those who have done things like completing Insanity on a Soldier.  (I did my first one with the Adept and Damn it was fun!)  Challenging though.

[Whyp_2]

Soldier is the best class in ME, and those who can't see that, can't use the class

[ashwind]

javierabegazo wrote...
And Ultimately, I think this is what happened. BioWare knows that not every person who picks up a copy of ME2 is going to invest the time to really understand the battle mechanics and that there WILL be casual gamers who will still want to play ME2.

I think we're talking about this issue as if it were an oversight of BioWare's, and not just intentional.


Lets bring Christina Norman in here

NO - Get back to work Ms Norman and dont waste time on this forum until ME3 is done.