236 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

Nice, but can't all classes do that anyway? It certainly doesn't make me think Adrenaline Rush is suddenly balanced.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not calling other classes useless at all. I'm not saying the game is somehow unplayable. I just wish to point out that better power balance is likely to result in more varied builds and gameplay.

Modifié par termokanden, 05 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[CitizenSnips]

Yea I personally prefer Sentinel to Soldier for insanity. Bring Miranda and the squadmate for appropriate squad ammo powers and it's a breeze.

[sy7ar]

a proper soldier destroys 4 tubes of the termin in 1 round, kills gunship b4 it drops mech w/o heavy weapons in samara RM, i dont think any other classes can do that. so ya it's pretty dam imbalanced.

[Irrepressible]

sy7ar wrote...

a proper soldier destroys 4 tubes of the termin in 1 round, kills gunship b4 it drops mech w/o heavy weapons in samara RM, i dont think any other classes can do that. so ya it's pretty dam imbalanced.

Infiltrators can do that.

[Katamariguy]

Mattock + Heightened AR + Widow + Geth Plasma Shotgun + Cain = practically broken difficulty level.

I really should have gotten the game before the Firepower Pack.

[jamesp81]

I may playthrough on Insanity with my Sentinel in NG+

I'm thinking of forgoing overload entirely in favor of maxed throw field and heavy warp. Overload is nice but it's so situational. Warp can still do pretty good damage even against shields. Nothing like what it does to barriers, but it's on a fast cooldown and a 200 point direct damage power that curves around corners is always worthwhile.

I'm hoping Zaaed's inferno grenade and Mordin's incineration blast together can strip a bunch of husks of their armor so I can insta kill them with throw field.

[Durgon Ironfist]

What is this world of warcraft? Go cry about balance on battle.net imo.

[egervari]

Stick668 wrote...

egervari wrote...

balance between classes should be measured by playing those classes to perfection.

I don't think difficulty in mastering a class should factor into balance, just as long as if that class is played to its fullest potential, it is equally strong - that's all that really matters in the end.

It's a tricky one, really. Because if a class has a low skill threshold ("difficulty in mastering") and a high skill ceiling (effectiveness when "played to perfection") it will be more powerful than a high-threshold, equally high-ceiling class. 
For most of the time. I.e, you have a head start on the "perfecting".

And a medium-threshold, medium-ceiling class will eventually be at a disadvantage vs. a high-t, high-c class.
While being called "too powerful" by the players that haven't mastered the high-t class.
Then again, I don't really see a problem applying your argument to single player, so I'll shut up. 

I don't expect balancing to be trivial or easy to do of course, but this is a usually a good way to go about it.

Some classes might be easy to master, but it's good that if their ceiling is reached quickly/easily, that it go no further than that. The classes that can reach their potential very easily shouldn't also be more powerful than classes that are hard to master. I am convinced that adept is harder to play AND has less rewards for the trouble after playing a soldier - especially during the first 75% of the game when you don't have all of the nice upgrades. Same goes for engineer.

In contrast, I think it's pretty clear that Vanguard does pay off once you learn it.

Modifié par egervari, 05 avril 2011 - 04:10 .

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

Furball34 wrote...

Silmane wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch 

ASSUMING COMPLETE CONTROL

Yup, that vid kinda says it all

Thanks for posting this vid. You can see here that what the Sentinel is capable of here, the Soldier couldn't possibly be.

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

[egervari]

JadeEffect wrote...

Soldiers are not OP. All we have is ammo types, access to ARs, no SMGs, no biotic powers (unless bonus talent).

I'd say Insanity was difficult on insanity, but I was not pulling my hair out.

Vanguard on insanity is pretty rough, since most of your combat is close range. I'd suspect Adept would be the hardest.

I don't know how you can admit that some classses are obviously gimped and then still say that the soldier is not overpowered.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't have SMGs or biotic powers. He doesn't need them. Assault Rifles are all he needs - so the loss of SMG is not a loss at all.

Also, ask yourself, why do you need biotics? To get rid of armors? Barriers? The soldier can do all of these things very easily - especially with widow or viper... but even an assault rifle can do it if you know a lot of ammo is coming up.

For crowd control? I think killing 2 mechs/collectors/mercs/geth/random-trooper using 1 adrenaline burst is pretty damn good crowd control if you ask me...

Modifié par egervari, 05 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[cedgedc]

I really want to emphasize this. Bioware
commonly turns out classic style RPG's. Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age,
etc. The Mass Effect titles are about as fast paced, and actiony as they
get.

So they implemented  various gameplay elements for those
of the Bioware loyalists out there, who aren't fps or tps fanboys, that
are just naturally talented and well practiced in these settings. An example
is the ability to pause midbattle and move your squad around, choose
abilities, etc, rather than force players to accomplish everything in
the heat of battle.

Another is the implementation of a decidedly
simpler archetype. The soldier, who doesn't need to wind up before
taking a swing, doesn't need to set up chains of abilities. They're
point and click. It's deliberate.

egervari wrote...

I agree with this premise in theory, but are you somehow suggesting that adrenaline burst is a loophole? :/ If it is, that's a pretty obvious loophole that would have taken them about 15 minutes to discover....

So, is Adrenaline burst a loop-hole? No. It's a fun mechanic. It's very effective, and assigned to the class which is meant to have a bit of an easier time in getting through most situations. Where the 'loop-hole' or overlooked imballance, comes into play is in just how effective this ability can be when used at the most extreme difficulty of the game.

Yes, this is something that designers, beta testers, etc, may not have had the time to test thoroughly enough to find it was working in anyway but as intended.

egervari wrote...

They could easily hire someone like you or me to play their game at a fairly cheap price to look for balance problems while they get it ready for production. In many of these cases, there has been delays due to PC/xbox versions being developed at different times and so on. This is a great time to do balancing.

They do. They hire many game testers, then they get the alpha and beta communities involved. But these games do have deadlines. It's not a small matter to pospone release because they want to continue tweaking classes. There are two things that the online community remembers and complains about most on a game- if I can be so broad- the first is the quality, the second is did the company stick to their release date?

Look at Blizzard. World of Warcraft delayed the release of Burning Crusade a whole bunch. The other expansions were released ontime. Yet there is still todate a stigma that blizzard always releases things slowly, late; at sloth-like rates. That sticks in a player's mind. It tremendously affects the reputation of the developer. So ballance issues such as these often get kicked aside.

Unfortunately, players equally dislike having their class 'reballanced'. For every 1 person you appease with those changes, you ****** off 3 others. Case and point, look at the Trion Worlds forums and see how out of control the threads are which discuss upcoming nerfs. There are a LOT of unhappy voices.

egervari wrote...

Whether I am naive or not doesn't dismiss the balance problem that exists

I have played Origins. I think Rogue and Mage are both really strong. Playing as 2h warrior is a sure way to gimp yourself in Origins, so that's a better example of a class imbalance. Playing a tank is just redundant, especially at the beginning :/

Of course, in DA2, they switched it around. 2H warriors became the imba-class. This is super clear.

As someone who enjoyed both mage and rogue thoroughly, I should clarify that I don't find one to be inherently best. I didn't min/max in those games.  I know that melee rogue was very straight forward though, where mage took a greater application of skill due to friendly fire issues, and how easily you can be killed.

Rogue is easier. As in the case of Soldier, someone with a lesser skill set can achieve a comparable level of success on a rogue, as someone with a greater skill set can achieve with a more challenging classtype. This is by design.

The player community is not created equal, so why should the class system be? (within reason of course) Many players come to these cames for the experience, but they want to do well. Many approach the game by first asking their friends, 'Okay, so what's the easiest class to play?' while others want the most complicated and challenging.

Are some of these effects unintentionally too-imballanced from time to time? Perhaps. Unfortunately the harm of trying to repair this either before the fact (through a release pushback) or after the fact (nerfing/reballancing) is often too great. It gives the company the reputation of being one that can't make up it's mind; is innefficient or uncoordinated.

If they ****** off a hundred or two hundred players by having one class slightly too easy to play, it's no where near as bad as pissing off their entire customerbase by making poor dev decisions.

[javierabegazo]

egervari wrote...

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

I really don't quite know what you're asking or expecting. You expect every class to pass through each area of the game with the exact same difficulty threshhold for every person?  classes are suited to different playstyles, that's what it comes down to. Just because you're skilled and you can do a 'run 25% quicker' is no call for them to overhaul the class

[Timon44]

javierabegazo wrote...

egervari wrote...

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

I really don't quite know what you're asking or expecting. You expect every class to pass through each area of the game with the exact same difficulty threshhold for every person?  classes are suited to different playstyles, that's what it comes down to. Just because you're skilled and you can do a 'run 25% quicker' is no call for them to overhaul the class

Actually yes. This is the exact point that the OP is making and I think, he/she is right.
The guy in the video is playing the Sentinel to perfection (and very aggressively too) and is still slower at completing the level than most Soldiers ever will be.
I also agree with the Adrenaline Rush/Concussive Shot argument. In an ideal world both powers would be equally strong so that there can be more different ways of playing the class effectively.

Modifié par Timon44, 05 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Legbiter]

The soldier class is broken? WTF this ain't an MMO, it's a single player game.

[Irrepressible]

Timon44 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

egervari wrote...

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

I really don't quite know what you're asking or expecting. You expect every class to pass through each area of the game with the exact same difficulty threshhold for every person?  classes are suited to different playstyles, that's what it comes down to. Just because you're skilled and you can do a 'run 25% quicker' is no call for them to overhaul the class

Actually yes. This is the exact point that the OP is making and I think, he/she is right.
The guy in the video is playing the Sentinel to perfection (and very aggressively too) and is still slower at completing the level than most Soldiers ever will be.
I also agree with the Adrenaline Rush/Concussive Shot argument. In an ideal world both powers would be equally strong so that there can be more different ways of playing the class effectively.

Speed is not really a good indicator of something being overpowered when speed itself is affected by the powers each class have available. I can complete pretty much every level with an Infiltrator in the same time i can with a Soldier, and I can complete each level quicker still using a Vanguard. Does that mean Vanguard and Infiltrator are overpowered?

If your answer to that is no then you've pretty much disagreed with your own argument.

Modifié par Irrepressible, 05 avril 2011 - 05:11 .

[Timon44]

Legbiter wrote...

The soldier class is broken? WTF this ain't an MMO, it's a single player game.

It would probably be better if you read a couple of posts in a thread before you write a reply. Your argument has come up several times already and it has also been explained, why some players feel that there should still be a decent balance.

[Timon44]

Irrepressible wrote...

Timon44 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

egervari wrote...

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

I really don't quite know what you're asking or expecting. You expect every class to pass through each area of the game with the exact same difficulty threshhold for every person?  classes are suited to different playstyles, that's what it comes down to. Just because you're skilled and you can do a 'run 25% quicker' is no call for them to overhaul the class

Actually yes. This is the exact point that the OP is making and I think, he/she is right.
The guy in the video is playing the Sentinel to perfection (and very aggressively too) and is still slower at completing the level than most Soldiers ever will be.
I also agree with the Adrenaline Rush/Concussive Shot argument. In an ideal world both powers would be equally strong so that there can be more different ways of playing the class effectively.

Speed is not really a good indicator of something being overpowered when speed itself is affected by the powers each class have available. I can complete pretty much every level with an Infiltrator in the same time i can with a Soldier, and I can complete each level quicker still using a Vanguard. Does that mean Vanguard and Infiltrator are overpowered?

If your answer to that is no then you've pretty much disagreed with your own argument.

Speed is obviously just one indicator and it doesn't show the whole picture. But it still is a good one to make a comparison.

[Legbiter]

Sorry I'm not reading 10 pages of nerd ****** for that non-issue.

[egervari]

javierabegazo wrote...

egervari wrote...

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

I really don't quite know what you're asking or expecting. You expect every class to pass through each area of the game with the exact same difficulty threshhold for every person?  classes are suited to different playstyles, that's what it comes down to. Just because you're skilled and you can do a 'run 25% quicker' is no call for them to overhaul the class

Yes, I do. I don't expect each class to clear it as fast as every other one, but I do expect some semblence of balance.

As I explained above, it has nothing to do with playstyle. I can play characters in a number of ways - I am not personally locked into playing the game 1 way. I honestly try all sorts of tactics and ways of playing to find the optiminal way to win - whatever that happens to be. So no, I don't think playstyle has anything to do with it.

I don't expect a Sentinel to be able to kill things as fast as the Solider, because it's trade off - as I see it - is to be more survivable. Even still, there's important thing to note why there is the imbalance:

The sentinel NEEDED to use both squadmates. Without the squadmates, the killing power would be much lower. You can even see in this video that all he has is an plain crappy SMG fire when things are on cooldown, and it's very inefficient at times.

Contrast this to a soldier, who actually doesn't even need to use the abilities on their squadmates at all to achieve a similar level of carnage. I still do use them - because it speeds things up even more - but it's not at all necessary because the soldier is rediculously overpowered as a solo class as it is.

The more a class can solo the encounters on Insanity all by themselves, the more overpowered it is. When you don't even need to care about your teammates, that's a problem when other classes absolutely rely on them to have any chance of success (Adept).

[Bozorgmehr]

egervari wrote...

This is definitely a neat video, but I just did this mission on my soldier. I did it much faster/efficiently than he did for sure. I should have downloaded fraps and showed everyone for a direct comparison. My run was 25-30% quicker for sure.

Like others already said, speed isn't everything, but if you want to compare classes like that check how I play Adept and Engineer. All classes can be powerhouses, it only requires a little bit more knowledge about combat (mechanics) to tap into their full potential.

You're also ignoring the fun-factor. I love using biotic powers to toss enemies around like toys and I don't care if my Shep is a little less efficient in terms of (killing) speed - (s)he still get things done nice, easy and pretty damn fast. Tech specialist can make the enemy fight on their side which isn't just fun but very powerful too : Geth Gladiatori

Also, ask yourself, why do you need biotics? To get rid of armors? Barriers? The soldier can do all of these things very easily - especially with widow or viper... but even an assault rifle can do it if you know a lot of ammo is coming up.

The Widow is best used to one-shot enemies, the Viper and assault rifles are available to all classes - don't see what they've got to do with playing Soldier.

For crowd control? I think killing 2 mechs/collectors/mercs/geth/random-trooper using 1 adrenaline burst is pretty damn good crowd control if you ask me...

Soldiers have nowhere near the amount of CC Adepts and Engineers have at their disposal and the only way to kill more than one enemy in one ARush is by using the Mattock - a weapon released through dlc and meant to break the assault rifle's delicate balance. It's also bugged in ARush (no delay in RoF). You're using a (bugged) weapon which isn't part of the original game to begin with - not the best example IMHO.

The only issue I have with the Soldier class is the lack of (active) powers. They only have Concussive Shot - which is pretty useless on the harder difficulties, and ARush - which is way too powerful and therefore blocks the introduction or addition of other abilities coz you're foolish to use anything else but ARush in terms of effectiveness. Soldiers are still a lot of fun to play though, but I prefer using more than one ability all day long - the Adept and Engineer are my favorite classes.

Oh, I totally forgot to ask, but Insanity is what we are talking about right? If not than Adepts are way faster than Soldiers (on Normal), it ain't fun.

[cedgedc]

egervari wrote...

Yes, I do. I don't expect each class to clear it as fast as every other one, but I do expect some semblence of balance.

As I explained above, it has nothing to do with playstyle. I can play characters in a number of ways - I am not personally locked into playing the game 1 way. I honestly try all sorts of tactics and ways of playing to find the optiminal way to win - whatever that happens to be. So no, I don't think playstyle has anything to do with it.

I don't expect a Sentinel to be able to kill things as fast as the Solider, because it's trade off - as I see it - is to be more survivable. Even still, there's important thing to note why there is the imbalance:

The sentinel NEEDED to use both squadmates. Without the squadmates, the killing power would be much lower. You can even see in this video that all he has is an plain crappy SMG fire when things are on cooldown, and it's very inefficient at times.

Contrast this to a soldier, who actually doesn't even need to use the abilities on their squadmates at all to achieve a similar level of carnage. I still do use them - because it speeds things up even more - but it's not at all necessary because the soldier is rediculously overpowered as a solo class as it is.

The more a class can solo the encounters on Insanity all by themselves, the more overpowered it is. When you don't even need to care about your teammates, that's a problem when other classes absolutely rely on them to have any chance of success (Adept).

You are literally discussing an issue which plagues every single rpg that has ever been known to man. Heck, look back at NWN even. Another bioware title. classes which had a bit of healing along with damage could fly solo where others that were pure damage could not manage alone nearly as easily. 

The same has been true for MMO's and single player RPG's. Some classes solo better. Some classes are easier. It's always been that way. It's done to accomodate player bases of varrying skill levels. This game has to be fun for a variety of players, not just the ones who want to experiment and see which class gets them through nightmare mode the easiest. (By the way, players who even try nightmare mode are in the extreme minority!)

That's all there is too it. You're taking the 'basic skill set class' and saying that it's too easy. It's equivalent to getting on a boat and getting frustrated with all the water, and what the hell is with that fish smell??

Some classes are support roles- as you've pointed out- so they are limited by the need for performance from their squad. It's just different. It's a role playing game and you chose a role that needs a group to support, as opposed to a role that is more solo-fly comando-champ. If 'how easy it is' is your only measure for the success of the game then that is a shame.

A support role is compensated for that increased challenge, by being forced to use their squad tools more. This adds a whole new depth of gameplay, and can enrich the whole experience.

There is no multiplayer, so no one has an advantage over you as a result of your class choice. All it does is provide further variety to each new play through. That is something for which many, including myself are grateful.

[cedgedc]

Legbiter wrote...

Sorry I'm not reading 10 pages of nerd ****** for that non-issue.

Just to be clear, if you're posting on this forum, you're a nerd like the rest of us. Just a self-hating nerd is all.

Also, if you're going to make a post on a  thread about how you don't care about reading the thread, consider skipping the middleman and just not posting.

Atleast that way you wouldn't have to hate yourself for being one of the nerds.

Thanks

[Dave666]

cedgedc wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

Sorry I'm not reading 10 pages of nerd ****** for that non-issue.

Just to be clear, if you're posting on this forum, you're a nerd like the rest of us. Just a self-hating nerd is all.

Also, if you're going to make a post on a  thread about how you don't care about reading the thread, consider skipping the middleman and just not posting.

Atleast that way you wouldn't have to hate yourself for being one of the nerds.

Thanks

+1

[Agamo45]

 Soldier isn't broken, the biotic classes are. By making it so that most biotics only affect enemies who have no armor or shields, they made biotics practically useless aside from warp.

[Bozorgmehr]

Agamo45 wrote...

 Soldier isn't broken, the biotic classes are. By making it so that most biotics only affect enemies who have no armor or shields, they made biotics practically useless aside from warp.

Really? Never noticed any of that.