236 réponses à ce sujet

[cedgedc]

Agamo45 wrote...

 Soldier isn't broken, the biotic classes are. By making it so that most biotics only affect enemies who have no armor or shields, they made biotics practically useless aside from warp.

This I would kindof agree with. I can see Biotic shields blocking biotics, but it's frustrating for me that as a sentinel all I ever can really use is warp and overload. Spam those until everything else is down and then maybe toss out a frost blast or whatever- which at that point is hardly worth doing since i can just mow them down.

Would be nice if Biotic shields blocked biotics, but regular shields did not. I don't see why push or pull woudln't work against someone with kinetic barriers up. Those barriers are designed to stop high velocity projectiles, moving very fast. A wave of energy would be too slow, much as someone running and tackling you wouldn't be blocked either.

[egervari]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Like others already said, speed isn't everything, but if you want to compare classes like that check how I play Adept and Engineer. All classes can be powerhouses, it only requires a little bit more knowledge about combat (mechanics) to tap into their full potential.

It takes forever for Adept and Engineer to be reasonably good. I am not saying they suck, but you shouldn't have to get every upgrade under the son, AND use your squadmates powers to their full potential just for it to work.

Honestly, in the first 1/2 of the game, Adept is crap. It really is. It takes forever strip protections off, and you can't even do it very well on 2-3 mobs at a time. The time/abilities used to finally get the stupid protections off is equaivalent to the soldier just killing them outright.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

You're also ignoring the fun-factor.

Fun doesn't matter when it comes to balance. This thread isn't about what class is more fun, it's about balance.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Widow is best used to one-shot enemies, the Viper and assault rifles are available to all classes - don't see what they've got to do with playing Soldier.

You are forgetting the soldier gets a damage boost that is greater than any other class in the game with his passives and adrenaline burst.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Soldiers have nowhere near the amount of CC Adepts and Engineers have at their disposal

They do. It is VERY common for a soldier to kill 1 enemy and soften 2 others during a single use of Adrenaline burst... only to use the squadmate abilities to finish them all off. Basically, you can kill 3 enemies in 5-6 seconds. How is this not effective crowd control?

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The only issue I have with the Soldier class is the lack of (active) powers. They only have Concussive Shot - which is pretty useless on the harder difficulties, and ARush - which is way too powerful and therefore blocks the introduction or addition of other abilities coz you're foolish to use anything else but ARush in terms of effectiveness. Soldiers are still a lot of fun to play though, but I prefer using more than one ability all day long - the Adept and Engineer are my favorite classes.

The soldier lacks powers, but it doesn't matter since weapons and adrenaline rush are all they need anyway. Concussion shot is actually useful with just 1 point.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Oh, I totally forgot to ask, but Insanity is what we are talking about right? If not than Adepts are way faster than Soldiers (on Normal), it ain't fun.

Yes, any discussion of balance should only be for Insanity. I'd rather see Normal being totally unbalanced and have Insanity balanced than the other way around. Note: That's not to say I want normal unbalanced... I don't.

And yes, I know that Adepts will cruise through normal. Maybe even the best class on Normal.

Modifié par egervari, 05 avril 2011 - 06:57 .

[Kronner]

cedgedc wrote...

This I would kindof agree with. I can see Biotic shields blocking biotics, but it's frustrating for me that as a sentinel all I ever can really use is warp and overload. Spam those until everything else is down and then maybe toss out a frost blast or whatever- which at that point is hardly worth doing since i can just mow them down.

Yeah, well... this only means that you do not understand the game mechanics.

[egervari]

cedgedc wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

Sorry I'm not reading 10 pages of nerd ****** for that non-issue.

Just to be clear, if you're posting on this forum, you're a nerd like the rest of us. Just a self-hating nerd is all.

Also, if you're going to make a post on a  thread about how you don't care about reading the thread, consider skipping the middleman and just not posting.

Atleast that way you wouldn't have to hate yourself for being one of the nerds.

Thanks

LOL.

[egervari]

Agamo45 wrote...

 Soldier isn't broken, the biotic classes are. By making it so that most biotics only affect enemies who have no armor or shields, they made biotics practically useless aside from warp.

I think that's the point I am essentially making - just another way of saying the same thing.

[cedgedc]

Kronner wrote...

cedgedc wrote...

This I would kindof agree with. I can see Biotic shields blocking biotics, but it's frustrating for me that as a sentinel all I ever can really use is warp and overload. Spam those until everything else is down and then maybe toss out a frost blast or whatever- which at that point is hardly worth doing since i can just mow them down.

Yeah, well... this only means that you do not understand the game mechanics.

Yeaaah.. No. Explain to me how what I said was wrong, if you like. To be clear my complaint is that abilities such as push and frost blast on my sentinel are useless until all of the enemies' protections are down, at which point, you may as well finish them off with a couple headshots anyways.

[javierabegazo]

OP, I still maintain that you're simply not using the classes to their maximum effectiveness if you think the Soldier is the 'fastest killing machine' class in ME2.

YouTube - ME2: Vanguard vs 2 YMIR Mechs, Insanity, No Cover


^

This is something the Soldier couldn't dream of doing.   AB is great, but when you're low health and about to die, you're pretty much screwed

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I cannot fathom for a second that  25% faster completion time for the Soldier class is enough to get BioWare's attention to overhaul the class

[Kronner]

cedgedc wrote...

Yeaaah.. No. Explain to me how what I said was wrong, if you like. To be clear my complaint is that abilities such as push and frost blast on my sentinel are useless until all of the enemies' protections are down, at which point, you may as well finish them off with a couple headshots anyways.

You DO relize that enemies have 1:1 defenses to health ratio (some have even more health), and your weapons have modifiers against defenses, but not health? So why would you use YOUR power to strip defense, and then shoot them, when you can do it the other way. Not to mention it is more fun & more efficient.

Also, why don't you use your SQUAD to strip defenses?

I suggest you check out the strategy subforum for more information, because you obviously haven't figured it out yet.

Modifié par Kronner, 05 avril 2011 - 07:03 .

[cedgedc]

egervari wrote...

Yes, any discussion of balance should only be for Insanity. I'd rather see Normal being totally unbalanced and have Insanity balanced than the other way around. And yes, I know that Adepts will cruise through normal. Maybe even the best class on Normal.

This is where your arguement no longer holds water. Let me translate what you've just said. I rather the game be ballanced for the top 5% most aggressive gamers, than the 95% majority. Let's put aside the basic, fundamental injustice of this decision.

The biggest factor here is that, Bioware is a business. And guess what you'll never hear the heads of any business say? I don't know word for word, but more or less you will never hear the following:

'Hey.. you know how we were gonna market this product to 10 million people? I've got an awesome new idea. Instead of doing that, lets change it so it's only appealing to 100k people. That way we can make lots less money, but those people will really LOVE US!'

Maybe one day UNICEF will get into the gaming business and make games just for the most hardcore of players. Until then, realise that you are not the only person playing this game. It can't be custom fitted for you. It has to work for most people too.

[javierabegazo]

cedgedc wrote...


Yeaaah.. No. Explain to me how what I said was wrong, if you like. To be clear my complaint is that abilities such as push and frost blast on my sentinel are useless until all of the enemies' protections are down, at which point, you may as well finish them off with a couple headshots anyways.

A couple of things:

• Enemies like the Flame thrower wielding enemies, once unprotected, can be Overloaded to increase their explosive self destruct
• Enemies like Husks can ben torn apart period no matter how high health they have by any ability that shoves them around, CS or Biotics
• Enemies with an abnormally large health bar can be a pain to whittle down if your low on health, so being able to throw them off ledges with biotics is not only immensely efficient, but super fun (fun being why we all play video games)
• Sometimes, its fun to not ONLY have to rely on Weapons

[cedgedc]

Kronner wrote...

cedgedc wrote...

Yeaaah.. No. Explain to me how what I said was wrong, if you like. To be clear my complaint is that abilities such as push and frost blast on my sentinel are useless until all of the enemies' protections are down, at which point, you may as well finish them off with a couple headshots anyways.

You DO relize that enemies have 1:1 defenses to health ratio (some have even more health), and your weapons have modifiers against defenses, but not health? So why would you use YOUR power to strip defense, and then shoot them, when you can do it the other way. Not to mention it is more efficient.

Also, why don't you use your SQUAD to strip defenses?

I suggest you check out the strategy subforum for more information, because you obviously haven't figured it out yet.

My point was that the vast majority of abilities in the game's arsenal lose all significant effectiveness against a mob with shields. No crowd control/ debilitating abilities work. Contrarily, once shields and armor are down, all your crowd control effects work and by that point the fight is easily won anyways.

As a sentinel most mobs die in 1-2 shots from a pistol to the head. Furthermore with shields and armor down, that first shot sends them recoiling and prevents me from getting hit so i can take another clean shot.

Whether i use my squads abilities or my own to accomplish the task is .. not quite irrelevant, but just not really as important here as the issue that there is a large disparity between the number of abilities that have effectiveness on an opponent with full shields/ armor, vs one cut down to just health.

Furthermore this disparity isn't supported by the lore established in the Mass Effect Universe. Kinetic barriers don't stop biotics in any of the books. Why should they in the game? 

[Kronner]

cedgedc wrote...

...

Whatever. Not gonna waste any more time here.

cedgedc wrote...

Furthermore this disparity isn't supported by the lore established in the Mass Effect Universe. Kinetic barriers don't stop biotics in any of the books. Why should they in the game?

Because gameplay >>>>>>>>> anything else.

[javierabegazo]

Also, using Flashbang grenade against enemies who have protection overheat their weapons

[cedgedc]

javierabegazo wrote...

cedgedc wrote...


Yeaaah.. No. Explain to me how what I said was wrong, if you like. To be clear my complaint is that abilities such as push and frost blast on my sentinel are useless until all of the enemies' protections are down, at which point, you may as well finish them off with a couple headshots anyways.

A couple of things:

• Enemies like the Flame thrower wielding enemies, once unprotected, can be Overloaded to increase their explosive self destruct
• Enemies like Husks can ben torn apart period no matter how high health they have by any ability that shoves them around, CS or Biotics
• Enemies with an abnormally large health bar can be a pain to whittle down if your low on health, so being able to throw them off ledges with biotics is not only immensely efficient, but super fun (fun being why we all play video games)
• Sometimes, its fun to not ONLY have to rely on Weapons

I agree with everyone of those points. However, situations 1-3 account for not even 10% of the game's overral encounters. So while you can deal with Flame Thrower mobs in creative ways, and husks are susceptible to a wide variety of attacks, this isn't the case for the average mob.

And as for the fun of not only having to rely on weapons, I couldn't agree more! The point that i'm trying to make- though I may be doing a poor job of it, is that the mechanics of the game limit a lot of your choices for abilty usage for much of the time.

[javierabegazo]

I think that on Normal difficulty, that is, the STANDARD difficulty for Mass Effect 2, the game mechanics do NOT limit your ability choice that much at all.
The problem is with most of us die-hard ME2 fans, we nearly always play on Insanity which is meant to be the highest challenge possible. I will admit that I've never played on any difficulty lower than Insanity, because I've got a long history with video games, and it's far too easy, so being forced to meta-game is sometimes what happens when you pump the difficulty up all the way

*i'm not using caps because of any tonality change, only because I'm in the Quick Reply box

[javierabegazo]

As for biotics not affecting protected enemies, this is done to prevent another god Biotic from ravaging enemies like in ME1. Like I said above, not all enemies in ME2 are *supposed* to have protection.

What I wish they would have done, is make it so that using biotics against a protected target will result in only a 1/3 success rate

[Chromie]

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

egervari wrote...

Paul Sedgmore wrote...

The problem with balancing is that it changes with play style. You might find the soldier overpowered where another might find playing as a soldier to be extremely hard and adept overpowered.

I disgaree. I sometimes don't even have to use powers of my squadmates. Sometimes I go for 10-20 minutes and never use anything other than Adrenaline Burst. This is a balance problem.

I've also made mistakes and still came out way ahead in battles.

With Adept, you have to play PERFECT. If you make like 1 little mistake, you're screwed. There are some missions that are easily 3-4x harder with a low-level Adept. I would try every squadmate and every power combination... but I never could make it as fast, easy and efficient as I am with my Soldier right now.

Seriously, with a Soldier, you can kill everything so easily. Barriers, Armor and Shields... who cares? Just shoot.

The hardest thing with Soldier is switching weapons... whoopie doo.

I guess it's a little more 'annoying' to pick up ammo, but once you have some decent guns (which with DLC, you will have them almost immediately), you are not looking for ammo during a fight any longer. You just have to look around to replenish - that's it.

I am hard pressed to find any faults with a Soldier. It is just overpowered. Missions that were hard on Hardcore for my Engineer are a cakewalk using the Soldier on Insanity.

To be honest that is the point of a soldier, they are the class that are used as a blunt force instriment and are equiped to go head to head with anything in game, whereas the other classes are designed to set-up and control the flow of the battle, they require a little more thought and a very different play style to get the job done. 

If every class was just as effective in a firefight as a soldier there would be very little point in playing as them, and if a soldier wasn't as effective in a firefight as they are currently they wouldn't be very effective as frontline infantry.

Has to be trolling because Mass Effect 1 also had stupid easy combat that wasn't fun.

[cedgedc]

javierabegazo wrote...

I think that on Normal difficulty, that is, the STANDARD difficulty for Mass Effect 2, the game mechanics do NOT limit your ability choice that much at all.
The problem is with most of us die-hard ME2 fans, we nearly always play on Insanity which is meant to be the highest challenge possible. I will admit that I've never played on any difficulty lower than Insanity, because I've got a long history with video games, and it's far too easy, so being forced to meta-game is sometimes what happens when you pump the difficulty up all the way

*i'm not using caps because of any tonality change, only because I'm in the Quick Reply box

Admittedly I generally only play through on hard intially, followed by nightmare once i have the swing of things. Going further than that  I find myself metagaming as you so aptly put it, which sortof spoils the experience for me.

[cedgedc]

javierabegazo wrote...

As for biotics not affecting protected enemies, this is done to prevent another god Biotic from ravaging enemies like in ME1. Like I said above, not all enemies in ME2 are *supposed* to have protection.

What I wish they would have done, is make it so that using biotics against a protected target will result in only a 1/3 success rate

This would be interesting. And yes, I understand that the game was tweaked to keep things in ballance. Truth be told my sentiments on the issue one way or another are pretty mild. I'm quite content with the game the way it is lol.

We sortof drifted from the original theme of the post.

[javierabegazo]

cedgedc wrote...



Admittedly I generally only play through on hard intially, followed by nightmare once i have the swing of things. Going further than that  I find myself metagaming as you so aptly put it, which sortof spoils the experience for me.

After 4+ Playthroughs, I refuse to metagame anymore with Mass Effect 2 and I only just Role play my shepard, and bring Squadmates who I like, rather than who suits the mission, Because I'm intentionally (essentially) handicapping myself this way, I give myself a couple of ....Perks.... to offset this self-imposed handicap, using the Gibbed Save Editor (see my signature)

• Give myself all the Credits + Resources I need for the whole game, I don't ever feel the need to Mine planets or crack every single PDA that I hunt down.
• Adjust my Shepard so that I have as many Ability Points as I need to max out and evolve every ability in the game
• Give my Shepard however many Bonus Abilities I want, i.e. if my Adept has no need of Shockwave, I can edit it so that I have Slam, Stasis, and Dominate in addition to the other Abilities, so that I feel like a true Adept
• Give my Shepard any WEAPON that I want. i.e. if my Infiltrator wants to use the Mattock, Widow, and Geth Plasma Shotgun for RP'ing purposes, I can do that

Doing all of this and being able to bring whoever I want on any mission regardless if the mission suits their abilities, I've found that on my upteenth playthrough of ME2, I can never get tired of the combat
[*]lol, and yes, I've been an awful example and have helped steer us a bit off topic, but still we are still talking about combat balance

Modifié par javierabegazo, 05 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[Bozorgmehr]

egervari wrote...

It takes forever for Adept and Engineer to be reasonably good. I am not saying they suck, but you shouldn't have to get every upgrade under the son, AND use your squadmates powers to their full potential just for it to work.

Have you watched those vids? AND, what's wrong with squadmates anyway. You also might want to chech my sig, there's a link to the Power of the Adept thread - you'll find multiple solo videos there. But you're right about the Adept's powers, they work best combined - Soldiers can shoot and shoot in slowmo, no option to use powerful combos like the biotic classes can.

Honestly, in the first 1/2 of the game, Adept is crap. It really is. It takes forever strip protections off, and you can't even do it very well on 2-3 mobs at a time. The time/abilities used to finally get the stupid protections off is equaivalent to the soldier just killing them outright.

Depends, playing NG+ makes it easier (fully leveled plus bonus weapon for starters), NG is relatively hard early on, but ~20% in the game, you can have the important biotic upgrades and bonus weapon. Adepts also give players the feeling they are getting stronger over time (important part of a rpg game imo) - Soldiers feel the same throughout the entire game.

Adept are no crap - maybe you are a crappy Adept player?

You are forgetting the soldier gets a damage boost that is greater than any other class in the game with his passives and adrenaline burst.

Enemies affected by Pull or Singularity take double weapon damage (100% bonus) and you can target multiple enemies with Pull Field (and Singularity) and those powers can be used more often than ARush and last much longer.

They do. It is VERY common for a soldier to kill 1 enemy and soften 2 others during a single use of Adrenaline burst... only to use the squadmate abilities to finish them all off. Basically, you can kill 3 enemies in 5-6 seconds. How is this not effective crowd control?

Sure it's effective, but an Adept can kill 3-4 enemies (with squadmate help) in 2 seconds which is a lot more effective.

The soldier lacks powers, but it doesn't matter since weapons and adrenaline rush are all they need anyway. Concussion shot is actually useful with just 1 point.

You can easily complete the game without using powers at all, no matter the class you're playing - Adepts can complete the game without using weapons too. I don't see what this has got to do with anything.

Yes, any discussion of balance should only be for Insanity. I'd rather see Normal being totally unbalanced and have Insanity balanced than the other way around. And yes, I know that Adepts will cruise through normal. Maybe even the best class on Normal.

I'm afraid that isn't going to happen, and Insanity is pretty well balanced as it is. In fact, the Adept is the class it works best. To be effective they need to use everything the game has to offer (guns, squadmates and powers), Soldiers play exactly like they do on Casual (aim - shoot - death enemy) no difference when regardless difficulty, no need to raise your game.

Yes, Soldiers are the easiest class to play with, but they're not more powerful than any of the other classes.

[cedgedc]

javierabegazo wrote...

After 4+ Playthroughs, I refuse to metagame anymore with Mass Effect 2 and I only just Role play my shepard, and bring Squadmates who I like, rather than who suits the mission, Because I'm intentionally (essentially) handicapping myself this way, I give myself a couple of ....Perks.... to offset this self-imposed handicap, using the Gibbed Save Editor (see my signature)

• Give myself all the Credits + Resources I need for the whole game, I don't ever feel the need to Mine planets or crack every single PDA that I hunt down.
• Adjust my Shepard so that I have as many Ability Points as I need to max out and evolve every ability in the game
• Give my Shepard however many Bonus Abilities I want, i.e. if my Adept has no need of Shockwave, I can edit it so that I have Slam, Stasis, and Dominate in addition to the other Abilities, so that I feel like a true Adept
• Give my Shepard any WEAPON that I want. i.e. if my Infiltrator wants to use the Mattock, Widow, and Geth Plasma Shotgun for RP'ing purposes, I can do that

Doing all of this and being able to bring whoever I want on any mission regardless if the mission suits their abilities, I've found that on my upteenth playthrough of ME2, I can never get tired of the combat
[*]lol, and yes, I've been an awful example and have helped steer us a bit off topic, but still we are still talking about combat balance

All I can say is, tisk tisk tisk.. lol Atleast you're not as bad as a friend of mine who does all that but also plays on norm or casual!  

[Bozorgmehr]

javierabegazo wrote...

OP, I still maintain that you're simply not using the classes to their maximum effectiveness if you think the Soldier is the 'fastest killing machine' class in ME2.

YouTube - ME2: Vanguard vs 2 YMIR Mechs, Insanity, No Cover

You don't need to play Vanguard to take on two YMIRs without cover, my Adept can do that too (around 6:20).

javierabegazo wrote...

As for biotics not affecting protected enemies, this is done to prevent another god Biotic from ravaging enemies like in ME1. Like I said above, not all enemies in ME2 are *supposed* to have protection.

What I wish they would have done, is make it so that using biotics against a protected target will result in only a 1/3 success rate

That would be pretty bad imo - powers must have reliability, adding stuff like chance to the mix completely ruins gameplay. When I use something like Stasis on an enemy - I know I don't have to worry about him/her for a couple of seconds. Taking that away is a major disadvantage. The occassional Pull, Throw, Slam, Neural Shock etc resists by enemies is bad enough (bugged) - making something like that part of the combat system is like adding chance to bullets - although you scored a perfect headshot, the game might overrule your shot and ignores the damage. Sorry son, better luck next time.

[Stardusk78]

The Soldier is only as broken as you play it; in time I will make a response thread but for example, the Claymore Soldier is pretty fun and exciting and risky too play as well...

[Dave666]

javierabegazo wrote...

As for biotics not affecting protected enemies, this is done to prevent another god Biotic from ravaging enemies like in ME1. Like I said above, not all enemies in ME2 are *supposed* to have protection.

What I wish they would have done, is make it so that using biotics against a protected target will result in only a 1/3 success rate

Definately have to dissagree with this one!  Adepts are already fairly weak (hp wise) and using a biotic ability against an enemy that then resists it is a sure way to lead to frustration amongst players.  Much better to simply raise the enemies hp and the ammount of damage biotics do to hp.  As it stands it takes about the same ammount of time to kill an enemy with guns as it does with biotics once its down to health.  This should definately not be the case. Perhaps having the heavy versions of things like throw and pull work when an enemy still has protections but not do damage.

Modifié par Dave666, 05 avril 2011 - 10:12 .