38 réponses à ce sujet

[DeffFace]

Simply put, why can't Bioware combined a voiced protagonist with the BA2/DA:O style of dialogue where I see precisely what my character is going to say BEFORE it is said, AND my character isn't locked into 1 paragon, 1 renegade, and 1 neutral option for every statement?

Shouldn't be all that hard. It would avoid the "This isn't what I expected to say" issue and the "I just pick the sarcastic option b/c this is a sarcastic char" issue. 

Maybe the issue is that you'd read what you were going to say, and so then saying it would be boring?

What do y'all think?

[Vormaerin]

A few of the descriptions are misleading, but that's not an issue with the dialogue wheel system in general. It just means the writers need to do a little better job on a few of the summaries.

And, yes, it would be tedious and boring to read my exact words and then listen to them voiced. The point of the summaries and codes is to let you quickly make a decision so their is less of an interrupt to the flow of the conversation.

[WhiteKnyght]

I have more of an issue with what I chose to say not being what is spoken.

I wanted to say to Cullen "I'm a mage too!" and instead I got lines defending mages.

[ddv.rsa]

I think something like this could work:

• hover over line on the wheel
• hold down Y
• displays full text of what I would say, same area as subtitles. maybe in another color?
• release Y, text disappears

That way it's optional and if you don't want it you can still use the wheel.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 04 avril 2011 - 12:17 .

[Selidor]

I'm not sure there's actually so much difference in the options. In DAO it seemed like more because a lot of what is now classified as investigating was under the main list of options but there was still a basic nice/mean/neutral option most of the time. I think the icons are useful at the very least for the romance and violence options. Having said that I'm not a fan of the paraphrasing and would have preferred to see the whole phrase before selecting it.

[Vicious]

The only thing replacing the wheel is a drifting 'thought box' which amounts to the exact same thing.

They really need to can the whole 'red vs blue' thing. Maybe put some aggressive options up top to keep players on their toes.

[Shadowrun1177]

I honestly didn't have an issue with the dialog wheel, I liked it more then Mass Effects honestly. I felt like it gave Hawke a wider personality and the icon's helped with choosing cause I didn't feel like I was so stuck with paragon, neutral, or renegade.

[Foolsfolly]

I love the dialogue wheel. I have seen I first saw videos of Mass Effect. I love the elegance of the system. I love how there are Investigate options and plot options that forward the conversation. You have much greater control (known control at that) over dialogue with the wheel.

The old dialogue boxes are an eye-sore and rely too much on guessing if this dialogue option will wipe out all the others or if this jokey line is mean or funny. Or worse of all, the accidental romance of a character when all you were saying were nice things to them. Leliana, I'm looking at you.

[NvVanity]

Problem with having the box and knowing exactly what your character will say is it can feel odd to some players. In the Witcher knowing exactly what Geralt would say was nice but sometimes I felt it to be lacking an emotion kick, then again he is a deadpan snarker.

It's pretty much a matter of opinion. Someone suggested in a thread that we'd hold down a button while highlighting one of the options to read exactly what would be said combined with the Intent icons.

[Foryou]

It was helpful at times, with some dialogue options without the icon would've been misleading in my own opinion

[Foolsfolly]

NvVanity wrote...

Problem with having the box and knowing exactly what your character will say is it can feel odd to some players. In the Witcher knowing exactly what Geralt would say was nice but sometimes I felt it to be lacking an emotion kick, then again he is a deadpan snarker.

It's pretty much a matter of opinion. Someone suggested in a thread that we'd hold down a button while highlighting one of the options to read exactly what would be said combined with the Intent icons.

Speaking for only myself, but I would never use that. The different dialogue keeps you engaged with the conversation instead of those sounding board talks that many of the older BioWare games feel like. It's like actual characters talking.

Alpha Protocol just had 'Agressive' 'Professional' and 'Sarcastic' with the occasional fourth option depending on the sitution and your class (Rookie and Vet got a few forth options).

There was no addition discription and even that system worked fine (also they were timed responses you didn't have all day to figure out what you wanted to say).

I just cannot go back to the dialogue boxes and silent protagonists. That stuff's from the past. I very vividly remembered being disappointed with the lack of a voice protagonist and dialouge wheel in DA1. I was overjoyed to hear it would be in this game and they've made great improvements on it here.

Going backwards to voiceless sounding boards that characters talk through intstead of to is a mistake. For one, if you didn't grow up with this convention it makes no sense to you. I can see a few new players (and we're all newbies at some time) who would be turned off on silent protags.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 04 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Paraxial]

The wheel wasn't bad by any means, but a fully voiced Hawke with dialogue options like we had in Origins would be ideal. Of course this would require quite a bit more voice work.

[Danjaru]

I absolutely hate the dialogue wheel. The scenario of me choosing an option then my character saying/doing something I did not expect at all happens way too often and it's very annoying.

Having an option of seeing exactly what your character is going to say would be nice. But at the same time the whole "Red for bad, Blue for good, Purple for Sarcastic, Heart for love" thing is almost insulting to our intelligence.

Modifié par Danjaru, 04 avril 2011 - 12:40 .

[Foolsfolly]

Bible Doctor wrote...

The wheel wasn't bad by any means, but a fully voiced Hawke with dialogue options like we had in Origins would be ideal. Of course this would require quite a bit more voice work.

Why would it take more voice work? The largest dialogue choice in Origins was at tops three sentences. Hawke knocks out three sentences all the time. Hawke knocks out lines even without player prompting Hawke to which is more dialouge then the Warden had.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 04 avril 2011 - 12:44 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I love the dialogue wheel. I have seen I first saw videos of Mass Effect. I love the elegance of the system. I love how there are Investigate options and plot options that forward the conversation. You have much greater control (known control at that) over dialogue with the wheel.

The old dialogue boxes are an eye-sore and rely too much on guessing if this dialogue option will wipe out all the others or if this jokey line is mean or funny. Or worse of all, the accidental romance of a character when all you were saying were nice things to them. Leliana, I'm looking at you.

I pretty much agree with this--I don't like Hawke's precise wording in some cases, but even when I know the full line ahead of time, I've still gotten awkward surprises (or, worse, the lovely "I don't want any of these options moment).

[LadyJaneGrey]

@DeffFace The dialogue wheel of ME and DAII in and of itself is no more limiting than the listing of DAO. There's still plenty of room for options.

As for the paraphrasing vs full text, I've been advocating ddv.rsa's above suggestion. Then both sides would be happy; options are good!

Also, the intent icons should continue to be improved and return in every Bioware game ever. (Well, after ME3 anyway; the paragon/renegade dialogue system is too much of a signature for it to be abandoned in the final game of a trilogy.) Whether the statement's paraphrased or written out, spoken or silent, the player then knows when the line's intended as snarky or flirty.

[Dasha Dreyson]

I'd like to see the icons go away and have the line on the wheel be the first line the actor/actress says.

[Paraxial]

Foolsfolly wrote...
The most a dialogue choice was in Origins was at tops three sentences.

Untrue. There were multiple times in Origins in which the dialogue box had at least five options, some of which branched off into questions, and then into questions about things mentioned while the previous questions were being answered. A good example of this is the dialogue when you first meet Alistair after he 'runs off' the mage. Voicing all that dialogue would require quite a bit more voice work from the VA playing Hawke, or the Warden or what have you. 

The 'dialogue box' offered the player many dialogue choices, whether they were sarcastic, mean, or lawful. It also offered many questions and different outcomes if the correct dialogue was chosen. The wheel does a good job of making Hawke's personality rather obvious, it does a good job at making Hawke's mannerisms known to the player. To know that you have been choosing peaceful dialogue and that Hawke is perceived as a peaceful man/woman is nice. But this same effect can be given from the dialogue box, in a more subtle manner. Again I like the tree, i'm used to it as i've been playing the Mass Effect games since release. That isn't to say it couldn't be improved or changed.

[dano525k]

Foolsfolly wrote...

 Or worse of all, the accidental romance of a character when all you were saying were nice things to them. Leliana, I'm looking at you.

IMO this was actually kind of realistic (though possibly not intended to be so) I mean people do get the wrong idea sometimes when all you're doing is being nice to them.  Although, I'll admit it was frustating for me when it happened and without any dialogue option to shoot her down no less : /

Anywho, I'd like the wheel if it was done a bit better.  As it is now, I think the drawbacks are about equal to the dialogue trees of DA:O.  Failing that, a mute protagonist without shots of her staring blankly and where the options were a little more clear as far as tone sometimes would not be horrible.  

I don't really care one way or the other about the character being voiced to be honest.  I'd just be happy with an improvement in either system.

Modifié par dano525k, 04 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[DeffFace]

Yea I'm not hating on the wheel. It has it's positives, for sure. I like what Bio did in DAII where there were a variety of speech types (rude, nice, charming, friendly, violent, sarcastic, flirty), rather than paragon/renegade. I think we're seeing the evolution of the wheel system. Going forward, maybe they'll have even more options.

What if Bio expanded these into like 20 things? Not just Mean v. Nice but maybe Calm, Agitated, Excited, Bored, etc. etc. and gave you like 3-4 options each time. Then you'd avoid the "intelligence insulting" options some have complained of, but still not force the player to read all text prior to hitting an option.

BTW, as for the idea to be able to hit Y to read full text of a choice... I think in practice this would result in people reading every option prior to picking one, or rather, FEELING like they had to read every one. This seems like precisely the kind of mechanic Bio is trying to get away from.

[thebatmanreborn]

it would be cool to have some timed responses like Alpha Protocol had. Yes, Alpha was a terribly made game but it had lots of neat ideas and all kinds of potential. Forcing you to make quick decisions in highly pressured situations adds to the suspense.

Overall, I like the dialogue wheel. It could use some improvement, sure. Having your party do more interruptions. A paragon/renegade like interruption system they had in ME2 would be awesome too. With some refinement, it could be very cool int he Dragon Age franchise.

[Vormaerin]

Bible Doctor wrote...

The wheel wasn't bad by any means, but a fully voiced Hawke with dialogue options like we had in Origins would be ideal. Of course this would require quite a bit more voice work.

Why would it require more voice work?  You have at least as many options in DA2 as you did in origins.   The only difference is that the wheel abbreviates so you don't get to read every possible dialogue option on the first play through, making it somewhat more interesting on subsequent play throughs.

[Paraxial]

Vormaerin wrote...
Why would it require more voice work?  You have at least as many options in DA2 as you did in origins.   The only difference is that the wheel abbreviates so you don't get to read every possible dialogue option on the first play through, making it somewhat more interesting on subsequent play throughs.

Bible Doctor wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
The most a dialogue choice was in Origins was at tops three sentences.

Untrue. There were multiple times in Origins in which the dialogue box had at least five options, some of which branched off into questions, and then into questions about things mentioned while the previous questions were being answered. A good example of this is the dialogue when you first meet Alistair after he 'runs off' the mage. Voicing all that dialogue would require quite a bit more voice work from the VA playing Hawke, or the Warden or what have you. 

The 'dialogue box' offered the player many dialogue choices, whether they were sarcastic, mean, or lawful. It also offered many questions and different outcomes if the correct dialogue was chosen. The wheel does a good job of making Hawke's personality rather obvious, it does a good job at making Hawke's mannerisms known to the player. To know that you have been choosing peaceful dialogue and that Hawke is perceived as a peaceful man/woman is nice. But this same effect can be given from the dialogue box, in a more subtle manner. Again I like the tree, i'm used to it as i've been playing the Mass Effect games since release. That isn't to say it couldn't be improved or changed.

[Vormaerin]

You always have three options in Dragon Age. You often have four or five, more if you count all the possibly investigate options on the sub menu. Plus, a reasonably consistent set of dialogue choices changes your responses in cut scenes, so all of that has to be voice acted.

There isn't more protagonist speech in DAO encounters. The voice acting requirements would be the same, less if you ditched the personality tracking effect of the wheel.

[TheBlackBaron]

I still think a compromise of sorts between the two would work best - the Witcher's example has already been brought up where it has the paraphrase, and then shows the full line after its been highlighted. Combined with the symbols it would remove the ambiguity from the system, so there'd be no more complaining about the PC saying something unintended or not like what the player though they were going to say.

Yes, some would them complain about it being strange to read the line and then hear the PC repeat it out loud, but I'd guess they're in a distinct minority.

They also need to get the freaking persuade options back in the wheel, and have more options for party members interjecting and branching dialog.