The dialogue wheel works fine--they just need a few more options on the right side. Sometimes the aggressive answer was a bit too aggressive. I'd like the option to be forceful, determined, not semi-violent. A more neutral option (note: sarcasm is not neutral, it is sarcasm) would be good. Four or five possible responses seems ideal to me--it would cover a good range of the spectrum, and allow for nuanced, natural conversation. Not sure how much more work it would be to implement that many more options, but I think it'd satisfy a lot of players with gripes about dialogue.
Voiced Protagonist is cool; dialogue wheel is not.
Débuté par
DeffFace
, avril 03 2011 11:59
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#27
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 04:37
Mnemnosyne
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The personality tracking thing is the one thing that I think finally makes a voiced protagonist worth the many downsides.
Voice acting in games has so many downsides, but it also has a lot of upsides. It's unfortunate that it's become a standard to include it now, because I feel that some games would do better without it, while others do better with it. There are clear advantages to both sides.
Games without voice acting can have far more dialogue throughout the entire game. Some of the Infinity Engine games had twenty to thirty thousand different lines of dialogue. I seriously doubt that there are twenty thousand lines of dialogue in any voice acted game, at all.
And it's not just about number of lines either. What's one of the biggest difficulties of adding DLC that adds new characters? Or expansions? Yeah, recording all the extra dialogue, not only of the new character, but of all the old characters responding to them. That's why it's unlikely we will ever see DLC adding a new full-featured companion to a game - if all the responses weren't recorded in initial production, they're probably not going to be added at all. I may be mistaken, but I think dialogue was one of the reasons why we got only Oghren as a returning companion in Awakening, for instance.
On the other hand, voiced characters can draw you into the story and involve you a lot more readily than reading dialogue, so there are clear advantages to voiced characters too. And I think that DA2's personality system is a point where, for me at least, the voiced character finally has enough advantages to give it a clear lead over non-voiced. The fact that a diplomatic/funny/aggressive Hawke will use different lines in different tones, not only when I select those lines, but also when they make comments on their own, gives the character a general personality that I never felt that other voiced characters had.
I would strongly support having an optional way to have the dialogue wheel display exactly what the character is actually going to say, though. I find it irritating when my character says something I did not expect. Most recently I chose an option talking about a 'peaceful solution' or something like that (I forget the exact words used) when talking to Anders, and instead I got some malarkey about the Chantry mediating.
The icons, though, I love. I would also like to allow more than three possible lines that move the conversation forward. Not always, of course, but some conversations it would definitely be appropriate to have more than three options. Diplomatic/funny/aggressive isn't enough in some cases when the most important thing in the conversation might not be what you choose to do, but why you choose to do it.
Overall I'm quite happy with DA2's dialogue wheel, even though it could use some improvements, and I hope it continues to improve and evolve. It is a vast improvement over Mass Effect's system, and I hope the personality system will play some part in ME3.
Voice acting in games has so many downsides, but it also has a lot of upsides. It's unfortunate that it's become a standard to include it now, because I feel that some games would do better without it, while others do better with it. There are clear advantages to both sides.
Games without voice acting can have far more dialogue throughout the entire game. Some of the Infinity Engine games had twenty to thirty thousand different lines of dialogue. I seriously doubt that there are twenty thousand lines of dialogue in any voice acted game, at all.
And it's not just about number of lines either. What's one of the biggest difficulties of adding DLC that adds new characters? Or expansions? Yeah, recording all the extra dialogue, not only of the new character, but of all the old characters responding to them. That's why it's unlikely we will ever see DLC adding a new full-featured companion to a game - if all the responses weren't recorded in initial production, they're probably not going to be added at all. I may be mistaken, but I think dialogue was one of the reasons why we got only Oghren as a returning companion in Awakening, for instance.
On the other hand, voiced characters can draw you into the story and involve you a lot more readily than reading dialogue, so there are clear advantages to voiced characters too. And I think that DA2's personality system is a point where, for me at least, the voiced character finally has enough advantages to give it a clear lead over non-voiced. The fact that a diplomatic/funny/aggressive Hawke will use different lines in different tones, not only when I select those lines, but also when they make comments on their own, gives the character a general personality that I never felt that other voiced characters had.
I would strongly support having an optional way to have the dialogue wheel display exactly what the character is actually going to say, though. I find it irritating when my character says something I did not expect. Most recently I chose an option talking about a 'peaceful solution' or something like that (I forget the exact words used) when talking to Anders, and instead I got some malarkey about the Chantry mediating.
The icons, though, I love. I would also like to allow more than three possible lines that move the conversation forward. Not always, of course, but some conversations it would definitely be appropriate to have more than three options. Diplomatic/funny/aggressive isn't enough in some cases when the most important thing in the conversation might not be what you choose to do, but why you choose to do it.
Overall I'm quite happy with DA2's dialogue wheel, even though it could use some improvements, and I hope it continues to improve and evolve. It is a vast improvement over Mass Effect's system, and I hope the personality system will play some part in ME3.
#28
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 04:52
Foolsfolly
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Bible Doctor wrote...
Foolsfolly wrote...
The most a dialogue choice was in Origins was at tops three sentences.
Untrue. There were multiple times in Origins in which the dialogue box had at least five options, some of which branched off into questions, and then into questions about things mentioned while the previous questions were being answered. A good example of this is the dialogue when you first meet Alistair after he 'runs off' the mage. Voicing all that dialogue would require quite a bit more voice work from the VA playing Hawke, or the Warden or what have you.
The 'dialogue box' offered the player many dialogue choices, whether they were sarcastic, mean, or lawful. It also offered many questions and different outcomes if the correct dialogue was chosen. The wheel does a good job of making Hawke's personality rather obvious, it does a good job at making Hawke's mannerisms known to the player. To know that you have been choosing peaceful dialogue and that Hawke is perceived as a peaceful man/woman is nice. But this same effect can be given from the dialogue box, in a more subtle manner. Again I like the tree, i'm used to it as i've been playing the Mass Effect games since release. That isn't to say it couldn't be improved or changed.
Conjecture. (Also I thought you meant dialouge per choice not choices. The number of choices are about the same in both games.)
The dialogue wheel has two parts, the outer part which contains plot moving dialogue, this can have at least 5 options and a possiblity for more when you pick like upper-left and the the upper-left changes into a new dialogue option that was related to the old one.
Then there's an inner part which is within the Investigate option. This can hold an additional minimum of 5 while also having more options appear as you converse with the player.
Ever talk to Wrex in Mass Effect 2? That man has A LOT to say. The outer part had 2 quest things, an observation, and two ways to say goodbye. Then the Investigate thing had 5 trees within. You'd ask like the upper-right and then there'd be a chain you could continue inside that upper-right option until you've said everything.
The dialouge wheel can contain a LOT more dialouge than the dialogue box, which you have to scroll through. The wheel makes scrolling unnessary and it more visually pleasing.
It all comes down to the writers writing multiple different lines. They clearly wanted to with Wrex in Mass Effect 2, but most times there's only 3-5 choices which is pretty consistant with there games even back with the dialogue boxes. And again, it's far more elegant than a box that you scroll through. For one you can see all options at once.
Modifié par Foolsfolly, 04 avril 2011 - 04:54 .
#29
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 04:54
Camenae
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I like the wheel...It's like, a branching flowchart. Which is more efficient than a series of lists, in my opinion at least.
I agree it's quite a bit jarring sometimes when the PC says something that I did not expect from reading the summary, but hmm when you only have typed words, it's going to be misleading at times. I can't guarantee I'd do any better, so I deal with what I have.
I agree it's quite a bit jarring sometimes when the PC says something that I did not expect from reading the summary, but hmm when you only have typed words, it's going to be misleading at times. I can't guarantee I'd do any better, so I deal with what I have.
#30
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 05:17
Isaidlunch
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I thought I'd despise the dialogue wheel but I think it's much better than the list of lines to choose from like in Origins. My only problem is the unpredictability of what my character will say but I can't blame the wheel for that, the fault lies with whoever at Bioware really really loves the paraphrase system to the point where they won't compromise with a "scroll over for full line" option.
#31
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 05:23
Foolsfolly
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Kazanth wrote...
I thought I'd despise the dialogue wheel but I think it's much better than the list of lines to choose from like in Origins. My only problem is the unpredictability of what my character will say but I can't blame the wheel for that, the fault lies with whoever at Bioware really really loves the paraphrase system to the point where they won't compromise with a "scroll over for full line" option.
I agree.
Most of the times it works great but there are a handful of options that are completely different than the small blurb lets you believe. It's a small thing that can be worked out a little better next time. Nothing's ever perfect.
#32
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 05:28
Cutlass Jack
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DeffFace wrote...
Maybe the issue is that you'd read what you were going to say, and so then saying it would be boring?
This is exactly why. Any game that has done this has been incredibly boring. Painfully so. Better no voice than that.
But I loved the way they handled it. The dialogue wheel gives enough to go on, but you still get to be just as entertained by your dialogue as your companions. I get that not everyone feels the same.
#33
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 06:41
Vormaerin
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I think the other factor is replayability. If you can read every dialogue option the first playthrough, there's nothing dialogue related to do differently the next time.
#34
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 06:44
GodWood
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I just want a silent protaganist.
I gain nothing by having someone elses voice forced on my character.
I gain nothing by having someone elses voice forced on my character.
#35
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 07:00
Magicman10893
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Bible Doctor wrote...
Foolsfolly wrote...
The most a dialogue choice was in Origins was at tops three sentences.
Untrue. There were multiple times in Origins in which the dialogue box had at least five options, some of which branched off into questions, and then into questions about things mentioned while the previous questions were being answered. A good example of this is the dialogue when you first meet Alistair after he 'runs off' the mage. Voicing all that dialogue would require quite a bit more voice work from the VA playing Hawke, or the Warden or what have you.
The 'dialogue box' offered the player many dialogue choices, whether they were sarcastic, mean, or lawful. It also offered many questions and different outcomes if the correct dialogue was chosen. The wheel does a good job of making Hawke's personality rather obvious, it does a good job at making Hawke's mannerisms known to the player. To know that you have been choosing peaceful dialogue and that Hawke is perceived as a peaceful man/woman is nice. But this same effect can be given from the dialogue box, in a more subtle manner. Again I like the tree, i'm used to it as i've been playing the Mass Effect games since release. That isn't to say it couldn't be improved or changed.
Dragon Age 2 has all those too. There are times where you are given 4 or 5 choices (they are usually the choices when talking to companions) and the icon is that "blank statement" picture with the 3 or so arrows in random directions. I specifically remember this with Fenris when talking about why you haven't gone back to Lothering and all that. And as far as the questioning goes, DA2 has that too. To the left is usually "investigate" and from there you have like 3 to 5 questions and from there they can branch into 2 or more questions and such. And Origins still had the "nice/helpful" "suave/humorous" and "mean/blunt" choices, now they're just conviniently labelled and organized for you to quicken the dialogue and make role playing somewhat easier (being a nice and helpful paragon you could now just look at the top responses if you want to roleplay that way).
The only problem I can see from this is the occasional misleading summary, but that isn't a fault of the system, it's a fault of the writers not coming up with a proper summary, but even then you have the icons to tell the tone of it so it isn't like Mass Effect where I thought I was being helpful or witty or whatever and coming off as a complete ass.
#36
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 08:27
Ieldra
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The dialogue wheel as such is not a problem. It's just an interface, and if we're limited to five, well, there were very few DAO dialogues with more than five options. BTW, five (plus "investigate") is the real technical limit - that Bioware chooses to use only three in most scenes except for investigate options that's another problem.
Not being able to see exactly what your character is going to say, that is not always a problem. It only becomes a problem when you're negatively surprised by what your character actually says. Unfortunately, that "Hey, this isn't what I meant" effect appears quite frequently in DA2. The icons, unfortunately, sometimes exacerbate the problem. I see several problems there:
(1) Paraphrase is misleading - I can't count how often that happens. I see that as *the* main problem with DA2's conversation system. Since the protagonist can be more varied in personality, it's even worse than in ME2.
(2) The "diplomatic" (twig) and "helpful" (angel) icons aren't always used consistently, as aren't the "decisive" (hammer) and "aggressive" (fist) icons.
(3) The "ironic/sarcastic/witty" icon has a too broad range. Between the smartass and the one who doesn't take anything seriously everything fits in here.
(4) There should be a "detached analysis of the situation" icon and according option. Maybe a book? If my character wants to voice an insight about the complications of the current situation I still can't express that - or if it is present, I don't know where it is because the paraphrases don't tell me.
(5) The icons tell me the prevailing sentiment, but they don't tell me its level. The paraphrases are too misleading to make up for it.
Not being able to see exactly what your character is going to say, that is not always a problem. It only becomes a problem when you're negatively surprised by what your character actually says. Unfortunately, that "Hey, this isn't what I meant" effect appears quite frequently in DA2. The icons, unfortunately, sometimes exacerbate the problem. I see several problems there:
(1) Paraphrase is misleading - I can't count how often that happens. I see that as *the* main problem with DA2's conversation system. Since the protagonist can be more varied in personality, it's even worse than in ME2.
(2) The "diplomatic" (twig) and "helpful" (angel) icons aren't always used consistently, as aren't the "decisive" (hammer) and "aggressive" (fist) icons.
(3) The "ironic/sarcastic/witty" icon has a too broad range. Between the smartass and the one who doesn't take anything seriously everything fits in here.
(4) There should be a "detached analysis of the situation" icon and according option. Maybe a book? If my character wants to voice an insight about the complications of the current situation I still can't express that - or if it is present, I don't know where it is because the paraphrases don't tell me.
(5) The icons tell me the prevailing sentiment, but they don't tell me its level. The paraphrases are too misleading to make up for it.
#37
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 09:08
NaclynE
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DeffFace wrote...
Simply put, why can't Bioware combined a voiced protagonist with the BA2/DA:O style of dialogue where I see precisely what my character is going to say BEFORE it is said, AND my character isn't locked into 1 paragon, 1 renegade, and 1 neutral option for every statement?
Shouldn't be all that hard. It would avoid the "This isn't what I expected to say" issue and the "I just pick the sarcastic option b/c this is a sarcastic char" issue.
Maybe the issue is that you'd read what you were going to say, and so then saying it would be boring?
What do y'all think?
I totally agree. It seems like my choices become condradictory. Like yes I agree with the subject of templars are helpful. It turns into "yes I agree but you need to trust mages" and I lose points with Fenris big time. I'm like "SAY WHA?" It seems the sarcastic statement is the way to go for almost everything. Includeing that demon talking to Merril. The demon says to Merril it will make her More powerful if she joins him. Top you defend Merril and lose 15 points. bottom you threaten to kill Merril if she sides with the demon and lose 10 or 5. Middle you lose nothing and agree with the demon. *Scratches head.* Doesn't make sense at all.
#38
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 11:21
nicethugbert
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I like the hinted dialogues better than knowing exactly what Hawke is going to say. It was a lot more fun trying to guess what he would say than knowing exactly.
#39
Posté 04 avril 2011 - 04:48
Giltspur
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ddv.rsa wrote...
I think something like this could work:That way it's optional and if you don't want it you can still use the wheel.
- hover over line on the wheel
- hold down Y
- displays full text of what I would say, same area as subtitles. maybe in another color?
- release Y, text disappears
I thought this as well while playing the game. I wish they'd do something like this in DA3. Though my thought was if subtitles are at the top, dialogue preview should be at the bottom. And further there should be an option to leave preview on for whatever you mouseover. At any rate, it's not the wheel that bothers me at times so much as it's the paraphrasing that comes with the wheel. But a preview option would get rid of that problem.
Modifié par Giltspur, 04 avril 2011 - 04:49 .
