32 réponses à ce sujet

[Mekah]

The idol in this case. When it comes down to it it just seems like a cheap trick to push the final battle on the player, to make sure no one can be reasoned with and the entire poweder keg explodes. It wasn't really necessary to drive the conflict, though. Human (or human/elven) nature, coupled with the inherent tensions between the Mages and Templars should've been enough.

My issue is that, when the central conflict ends up being caused by the idol, all the events that end up occurring are entirely coincidental.

I mean, if Hawke hadn't gone on that expedition, the idol wouldn't have been found, Meredith wouldn't have obtained it, and it wouldn't have driven her into a everyone's-a-blood-mage madness preventing her from seeing any reason, which would have prevented Orsino from becoming a blood mage in response, etc...

Had it not been for the idol, maybe Hawke could have talked Meredith down at the very end, and provided a third option to end the game.

[Beerfish]

Agreed to a point but it is a big part of the Cassandra Varric story. Cassandra feels that the Champion and his compaions were responsible for what happened in the end of the story and even accuses Varric that the champ must have gone into the deep roads to find the idol on purpose.

I agree that it wasn't need for the end story as Meredith was already totally fanatical before she got exposed to idol. It did seem like an excuse to build an uber final battle.

[Vormaerin]

Well, the whole point of the story was that it reached a impasse where catastrophe was the only outcome and that is wasn't something where you could just say "It was Bob's fault".

Meredith and Orsino were scum before the idol got involved, but the idol changed things from "really bad" to 'unsalvageable'.

For better or worse, Bioware decided to tell the story of how we got from "happy fluffy blight ended joy" to "massive war and social disruption" instead of just telling us it happened in a prologue.

[Dan-mac RI]

The whole point of this game is, as Anders said, "No compromise... there will be war." The idol is just an explanation as to why Meredith is so unreasonable. Besides, it makes for one awesome final battle.

[ColdEnd]

The idol did nothing except allow Meredith to reach her full potential of crazy.

Prior to her obtaining the idol, recall she was already...
- sending out assassination squads to deal with ALL apostates, regardless of them being a malificar, blood-mage, or possessed
- forcibly making mages tranquil, that had already passed their harrowing, and were a part of the circle.

And on the opposite side of things Orsino...
- was already helping Quentin the serial killer and blood-mage with his research, as well as concealing him in Kirkwall
- and conspiring against Meredith both by publicly shaming her, and by further acts of passive agressive simpering with Hawke regarding his own mages secret plans... instead of confronting them himself as the leader he should have been.

No, it was really Anders actions that pushed everything (and by everything, I mean the already unbalanced Meredith and Orsino) over the edge.

The idol itself was just an excuse to make the big boss-fight more epic... and by epic I mean you have waves upon waves of randomly spawned golems, and golem tanks (TANKS!)... for your character to button-awsome all over, until your arm is tired and you need a shower.

[Statulos]

The idol is not a Mcguffin, it´s what turns normal people into Super Sayans.

[Icy Magebane]

The idol got a little annoying... Bartrand was evil to begin with, so fighting him was one thing. But Meredith should have been a mage-supporter only boss, whereas Orsino should have been the templar-supporter boss. Just make the fights better for each of them and that's all you needed.

Meredith might have been too harsh with mages (maybe), but this crap about having to fight her because the idol possessed her did not sit well with me. I'd have preferred it if she simply acknowledged Hawke as the new Viscount after slaying Orsino...

But, they obviously have something in mind for the idol. Personally, I think that should have been settled in Bartrand's mansion, but that's just me. I don't see any reason why it needed to be related to the ending.

[Vormaerin]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I'd have preferred it if she simply acknowledged Hawke as the new Viscount after slaying Orsino...

.

No, she wouldn't have gone for that.  She was opposed to that before she got the idol.   In the codex histories, there's mention she was involved in getting rid of the the Viscount prior to Dumars and isn't it just a little strange how Seamus is killed with Templar involvement and then she decides the templars will go off and fight Qunari in the streets rather than try to save the Viscount in his palace?

[highcastle]

A true MacGuffin is an object that does nothing, that the audience cares nothing about, that the characters desire. The idol doesn't fit this role because it does something (drives people insane). And I like it's inclusion because it makes Meredith a bit more sympathetic. Perhaps she wouldn't have taken such drastic measures without the idol's corruption. Maybe she wasn't the monster she seemed to be (and really, she came across as pretty evil, at least to me). The corruption of the idol is like Justice's influence on Anders. It doesn't excuse their actions, but it helps explain them and makes them both a bit more sympathetic.

[Plaintiff]

The idol exacerbates Meredith's already intense paranoia, but I doubt you could've talked her down anyway. She was always a ****.

I think it was included to set up a sub (or possibly main) plot thread in later games. I mean, a new type of lyrium that gives you incredible magical powers at the cost of driving you insane? That has so much story potential, I don't believe they'd let it die.

[Icy Magebane]

Vormaerin wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I'd have preferred it if she simply acknowledged Hawke as the new Viscount after slaying Orsino...

.

No, she wouldn't have gone for that.  She was opposed to that before she got the idol.   In the codex histories, there's mention she was involved in getting rid of the the Viscount prior to Dumars and isn't it just a little strange how Seamus is killed with Templar involvement and then she decides the templars will go off and fight Qunari in the streets rather than try to save the Viscount in his palace?

Gonna have to disagree with that.  First off, she had the Idol in Act 2.  Bartrand had returned to Kirkwall because he was trying to get it back, having already sold it to "a woman."  Perhaps her unnaturally strong willpower kept her from succumbing to the effects totally, but you can see in her eyes after announcing that the Qunari threat has ended that she isn't happy with how things played out.

Secondly... Mother Petrice and Varnell were not acting on behalf of the Chantry or Templars.  They were zealots who were acting out of hatred for the Qunari... even in Act 1, the plan to frame a Qunari mage as a murderer was unofficial.  I don't see any evidence that Meredith had any contact with Petrice or involvement in her schemes.

And third, Meredith is pretty adamnat about storming the Keep immediately to end the threat to the city.  At this point, she had the idol, so she may or may not have been acting out of character.  But to say that she didn't even try to save the Viscount?  I don't think that's fair.  I mean, how was she to know he was even alive?  All they knew was that he was inside the Keep, the Arishok was with him, and there was an army of Qunari on the streets blocking access.  She did what she could.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 04 avril 2011 - 03:27 .

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, I know. Somehow Meredith is completely ignorant of anything in the city despite being the most powerful person there. She doesn't know about Alrik, she doesn't know about Varnell, she doesn't know about about the kidnapped Templars. It all just mysteriously happens without her knowledge or involvement.

I'll have to look at the cutscene again, but I didn't think she had the idol-blade yet. I thought it made its first appearance in Act 3. She did own the idol before it was made into a sword, but whoever was forging it must have had possession. Regardless, she was angling for power long before she got it. Long before the game started, if the Codex entries are to be believed (which, of course is a tricky issue).

Once the Qunari have taken the Keep, she's all gung-ho about recapturing the city. But I got the impression she thought she was sending Hawke & crew to die, not to succeed. Could be imagining that. I'm also suspicious that she has this large, intact military force that managed to protect all the religious leaders in the city from capture, but none of the political ones. *Could* be random chance, of course....

[frylock23]

I dislike the idol because it gives Meredith an excuse. The "I wouldn't have been so bad but this drove me nutso" plot device. Meredith doesn't deserve an excuse, she was already well on the way to squeezing the mages into open revolt without it, and the story should have portrayed the final conflict in that way.

[stobie]

It might have been more satisfying if she knew the idol-pink-sword was dangerous, and chose to use it anyway. Otherwise, it seems a bit random. "Oh, pretty sword! How much is it? Oooh, nice! Thanks!"

The other unanswered bit concerning the idol is .... they do a close up of my little hawke hand touching it. Zinging Lyrium Whatevers zip around. I was *sure* this would come back, and I'd learn I'd been... I don't know - possessed by some ancient dwarf spirit or something! But it leads to nothing. Maybe there's some other twist to come, or revelation? It seems a bit empty this way.

[Foolsfolly]

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, the whole point of the story was that it reached a impasse where catastrophe was the only outcome and that is wasn't something where you could just say "It was Bob's fault".

Meredith and Orsino were scum before the idol got involved, but the idol changed things from "really bad" to 'unsalvageable'.

For better or worse, Bioware decided to tell the story of how we got from "happy fluffy blight ended joy" to "massive war and social disruption" instead of just telling us it happened in a prologue.

Assuming you're correct and that was the point of the Idol then it's still a touch weak after Act 2. Act 2's climax had Petrice, the Arishok, Isabela, the Grand Cleric, and the Viscount all partially responsible for what happened.

Depending on your opinion, your bias, and role-playing persepctives depends on who's at fault.

Petrice totally antagonizes the Qunari which directly leads to the war.

Or the Arishok clearly had plans to take over Kirkwall since they were able to quickly seize the Keep. There's also the fact that they attacked the city guard first and that they killed a Revered Mother in the Chantry no less. And had they been honest with why they were there the book could have been found peacefully for them.

Isabela stole the book which brought them there and when the whole thing could have been ended peacefully she ran off with it again. All the people lost that night would still be alive had she turned over the book. Or at least not gone after the book since the Qunari attacked the people who were selling it to the Tevinter mages.

The Grand Cleric had a responsiblity to control her Mothers. Had she had an active role in maintaining and punishing those in her Chantry then Mother Petrice would have never have built a group of anti-Qunari zealots all under the apparent supervision of the Chantry.

And had the Viscount had a spine his son wouldn't have converted. And perhaps he would not have let in a foriegn army. But his ignornate pacifying and appeasment tactics only enabled a larger tragedy.

Do I believe these things? Most I don't. But it's written in such a way that players and characters could believe any number of these and possibly other things since Cassandra seems to think Hawke's behind everything.

So to go from that where multiple people could be blamed for what happened to an Idol being the excuse for it not being just one person's fault...it's a disappointment. Had we met Meredith and Orsino earlier and had we had a bunch of characters and their motives intertwined like in Act 2 then we could have debates on who's at fault for the war. And as the story of what happened in Kirkwall spread the truth would be lost along the way. And no one would be the sole blame for the war.

But...the Idol....it's just a weak plot device that sullies everything that it touches. Maybe if we knew more about the damn thing it wouldn't be so...but as is right now as a consumer who only knows what he saw...it's cheap.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 04 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[stobie]

Part of the problem is that the Qunari were so good - you'd have to side with them in some instances - that Meredith just fell flat. There wasn't much tie-in between the Qunari story, which *was* really emotional, and Act 3. I'm not sure what Meredith thought of them, for instance, other than when they rampaged.

But yes, the idol does seem weak and not explained well enough. I think having Sandal react differently might have made it more interesting. As it is, it just seems to have made itself into a really tacky sword.

[Plaintiff]

If we're going to make a list of everyone who's to blame for the Qunari situation, I think it's reasonable to include Saemus on his own merit. I don't blame him for being idealistic, and wanting a peaceful solution, but anyone with half a brain can see that the Qunari, while not "monsters", aren't exactly nice. A major tenant of the Qun is complete conversion of the opposition, through brutal force if necessary. And as such a strong-willed individual himself, you'd think Saemus would be opposed to their policy of stripping individuals of free will. I can only reason that he declares himself a friend of the Qunari because he's utterly oblivious to their actual intentions, despite spending so much time with them.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 avril 2011 - 04:54 .

[erynnar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, the whole point of the story was that it reached a impasse where catastrophe was the only outcome and that is wasn't something where you could just say "It was Bob's fault".

Meredith and Orsino were scum before the idol got involved, but the idol changed things from "really bad" to 'unsalvageable'.

For better or worse, Bioware decided to tell the story of how we got from "happy fluffy blight ended joy" to "massive war and social disruption" instead of just telling us it happened in a prologue.

Assuming you're correct and that was the point of the Idol then it's still a touch weak after Act 2. Act 2's climax had Petrice, the Arishok, Isabela, the Grand Cleric, and the Viscount all partially responsible for what happened.

Depending on your opinion, your bias, and role-playing persepctives depends on who's at fault.

Petrice totally antagonizes the Qunari which directly leads to the war.

Or the Arishok clearly had plans to take over Kirkwall since they were able to quickly seize the Keep. There's also the fact that they attacked the city guard first and that they killed a Revered Mother in the Chantry no less. And had they been honest with why they were there the book could have been found peacefully for them.

Isabela stole the book which brought them there and when the whole thing could have been ended peacefully she ran off with it again. All the people lost that night would still be alive had she turned over the book. Or at least not gone after the book since the Qunari attacked the people who were selling it to the Tevinter mages.

The Grand Cleric had a responsiblity to control her Mothers. Had she had an active role in maintaining and punishing those in her Chantry then Mother Petrice would have never have built a group of anti-Qunari zealots all under the apparent supervision of the Chantry.

And had the Viscount had a spine his son wouldn't have converted. And perhaps he would not have let in a foriegn army. But his ignornate pacifying and appeasment tactics only enabled a larger tragedy.

Do I believe these things? Most I don't. But it's written in such a way that players and characters could believe any number of these and possibly other things since Cassandra seems to think Hawke's behind everything.

So to go from that where multiple people could be blamed for what happened to an Idol being the excuse for it not being just one person's fault...it's a disappointment. Had we met Meredith and Orsino earlier and had we had a bunch of characters and their motives intertwined like in Act 2 then we could have debates on who's at fault for the war. And as the story of what happened in Kirkwall spread the truth would be lost along the way. And no one would be the sole blame for the war.

But...the Idol....it's just a weak plot device that sullies everything that it touches. Maybe if he knew more about the damn thing it wouldn't be so...but as is right now as a consumer who only knows what he saw...it's cheap.

This.  As Foolsfolly always does brilliantly, puts things in perspective (even if we agree to disagree on occasion, my friend). You hit the nail on the head. It was, as Sten might say, most....unsatisfactory.

Modifié par erynnar, 04 avril 2011 - 05:00 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

The idol exacerbates Meredith's already intense paranoia, but I doubt you could've talked her down anyway. She was always a ****.

I think it was included to set up a sub (or possibly main) plot thread in later games. I mean, a new type of lyrium that gives you incredible magical powers at the cost of driving you insane? That has so much story potential, I don't believe they'd let it die.

possibly, and the fact that there is more to dwarven history than what we were led to believe. Dwarven mages may have in fact existed. The Primeval Thaig is described in the codex as being a place of magic, which the author states should be impossible. Should be being the two key words there.

[LobselVith8]

I think the Idol was unnecessary. I would have preferred to see more of the apostate POV, more of the templar and mage dichotomy without vilifying either side like Act III did, and more of the human drama behind the conflict have the easy out of blaming everything on "the Idol."

[Vormaerin]

I could have lived without the idol, though it made for a fun boss battle. I'm not certain that the idol was "What we found in the Deep Roads" that was so bad. Some of Cassandra's comments made me wonder if she didn't mean something else as yet unrevealed.

The politics could have exploded without the idol for sure. I would have liked a longer Act 3 with a lot more politicking even if it pulled a DAO Landsmeet and blew up into the unavoidable boss fights. I definitely would have liked a chance to get more information on just how awful Meredith and Orsino really were before I had to decide which one to kill and which one to pretend to help before doublecrossing them. They are both scum.

[Anarcala]

The whole game would have been more interesting without the idol as it would have forced the writers to think of a more human way of driving Meredith over the edge. That would have increased the imact of her final decision to send for the rite of annulment and actually given credence to it from an audience point of view.

As mentioned earlier, the idol seems to be around as a get out clause and a way to beef up the final battle. I found the Meredith fight cringe worthy, and could have done without the great red, flying Templar.

Modifié par Anarcala, 05 avril 2011 - 01:13 .

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think the Idol was unnecessary. I would have preferred to see more of the apostate POV, more of the templar and mage dichotomy without vilifying either side like Act III did, and more of the human drama behind the conflict have the easy out of blaming everything on "the Idol."

Exactly.

If it's part of a larger storyline for another game or DLC then it's more of a Chekov's Gun. Except it finally fires in another story, which would actually make it a call-back.

Which means, it probably should have just been there to drive Bartarand (or however you spell his name) mad and not get involved in the big finale where it reduces a character into a babbling madwoman. It ended up hurting the character of Meredith too much and with Orinso being a blood mage for the same reason (boss fight and just cause) it really robbed that ending of anything meaningful.

It's baffling to me since Act 2's finale had people esculating the plot until the whole situation exploded and it did that without plot devices telling characters to do (or surprise I'm a Blood Mage moments which happens a lot in that game).

The pure lyrium/Primeval Thaig storyline better be worth the entire derailing of the game's storyline.

[Maria Caliban]

Mekah wrote...

Did the story really need a MacGuffin?

No.

The MacGuffin might be meaningful in future titles, however.

[sphinxess]

So when did she go insane? She seems a reasonable fanatic to me -
Calls for the Rite of Annulment "though it breaks my heart"
Lets you decide Anders fate
Allows Cullen to spare mages that surrender along the way <if your on the Templar side>
Decides to kill the Champion and believes Cullen is under the influence of Blood Magic when he objects

The sword does grant super powers but just cause Varrics brother is insane....