301 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

@ishmael: Fenris is not a hypocrite... he doesn't use magic (as we know it), and demons are not constantly trying to possess him. Seriously, I don't even understand this. Let's use Anders' analogy of regular people with swords vs. mages with magical attacks. The difference between them is clear. Both are dangerous, but only one is dangerous regardless of a human's intent. If a mage becomes possessed, the demon is now in control... a regular person is not prone to acting without reason (obvious exceptions for the insane).

Regarding Fenris's abilities... though they are based on Lyrium, he has no special connection to the Fade. That is the difference between people like him and mages. Demons seek out those who are aware in the Fade (mages), not people who have lyrium-based abilities. Templar abilities are also based on lyrium (according to Alistair), but they are not open to demonic possession, which is the real issue here.

I'm not seeing any hypocrisy. Fenris thinks that demons are a threat to Thedas. Demons enter and inluence the mortal realm via mages (among a few other means, but this is their most powerful and dangerous form). Therefore, mages should be contained for the good of humanity. I must be missing something.

[ThatDancingTurian]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Yes he does.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that, but nothing in-game refers to his abilities as magic aside from him saying that 'magic is etched in his skin' which could simply be a reference to its unnatural presence and the fact that it was applied through some dark magic ritual. The power comes from lyrium, not from the Fade, I think. IMO it is a magical by-product only, and not subject to the numerous dangers associated with magic usage.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
And he'd do so much better? People are weak, not mages.

He never said normal people weren't weak too. He never said he was stronger than mages either. He was tempted in the Fade. The rivalry conversation is very telling of his feelings there (which were also very consistent with his statements). Mages can't help being mages, but because of what they are they have a responsibility greater than normal people have. If they can't live up to that responsibility, then someone else like the Templars must be responsible for them. The alternative is another Imperium, and everyone will suffer for that, not just the mages.

If you take Fenris to the Gallows he doesn't presume their way is effective, he simply knows that letting mages have complete freedom is not.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Right, he uses his magic because he can and because it's useful. There's nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with being a mage and casting spells. And you're wrong about who they're running from. I'll bet that a lot of the slavers coming after Fenris believed that they were enforcing justice, just as I'll bet a lot of the templars after Anders are selfish pricks who are only doing it for the power trip.

I doubt those guys who go 'don't kill the pretty ones!' are big on justice.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Fenris broke the law. What did Anders do?

Became one with a Fade spirit who thinks it is judge, jury and executioner over human affairs. I think Anders wins the prize for most dangerous with that one.

I just don't understand how Fenris is a hypocrite. He has very strong opinions and is vocal about those opinions, but unlike Anders he does not act in absolutes or consider himself absolved of those judgements.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 04 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[DoNotIngest]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

Personally I think Orsino makes Merrill look like Einstein.

Einstein makes Merrill look like Einstein. Orsino makes Marethari look like Einstein.

QFT

[Miri1984]

One reason Fenris is a hypocrite: He thinks all mages are dangerous and should be locked in the Circle, yet does not turn Merrill or Anders in. Hypocritical.

Nice of him, yes. But hypocritical.

[Trophonius]

The only thing that perturbs me is Anders' insistence on upbraiding Merrill every opportunity he gets. If anything, they're not so dissimilar. They both associated themselves with demons out of desperation to achieve a greater good by saving their people from years of affliction. I would've expected more sympathy from him.

[mesmerizedish]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that, but nothing in-game refers to his abilities as magic aside from him saying that 'magic is etched in his skin'. The power comes from lyrium, not from the Fade, I think. IMO it is a magical by-product only, and not subject to the numerous dangers associated with magic usage.

Lyrium is magic. The lyrium powers the abilities, the abilities are magic. That he gets the power to use magic from the markings instead of himself doesn't make it not-magic.

He never said normal people weren't weak too. He never said he was stronger than mages either. He was tempted in the Fade. The rivalry conversation is very telling of his feelings there (which were also very consistent with his statements). Mages can't help being mages, but because of what they are they have a responsibility greater than normal people have. If they can't live up to that responsibility, then someone else like the Templars must be responsible for them.

So, who's stepping up to take responsibility for Fenris?

The alternative is another Imperium, and everyone will suffer for that, not just the mages.

Says you

I doubt those guys who go 'don't kill the pretty ones!' are big on justice.

I agree. But it's wrong to assume that they were all like that. And I doubt that Ser Alrik was really interested in any sort of "good."

Became one with a Fade spirit who thinks it is judge, jury and executioner over human affairs. I think Anders wins the prize for most dangerous with that one.

Again, I agree. But comparing Fenris to Anders doesn't absolve Fenris. It just damns Anders, too.

I just don't understand how Fenris is a hypocrite. He has very strong opinions and is vocal about those opinions, but unlike Anders he does not act in absolutes or consider himself absolved of those judgements.

He is a product of magic that he asked for. He uses this magic on a daily basis. But, he condemns mages, based not on what they've done, but on what they are and what he thinks they will do. He considers himself absolved of something.

[Jean]

Miri1984 wrote...

One reason Fenris is a hypocrite: He thinks all mages are dangerous and should be locked in the Circle, yet does not turn Merrill or Anders in. Hypocritical.

Nice of him, yes. But hypocritical.

If Hawke had the option to give both Anders and Merrill to the templars, I have no doubt we'd be seeing that dance he does in his mansion.

[Kawamura]

Batteries wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

One reason Fenris is a hypocrite: He thinks all mages are dangerous and should be locked in the Circle, yet does not turn Merrill or Anders in. Hypocritical.

Nice of him, yes. But hypocritical.

If Hawke had the option to give both Anders and Merrill to the templars, I have no doubt we'd be seeing that dance he does in his mansion.

The... spicy shimmy?

[Miri1984]

@Batteries Yes, and I'm sure he'd come up with a line as snarky, if not more so, than Anders "I thought I was the only one thinking that" when Hawke turns Fenris over to Danarius.

Let's just face it, they're BOTH GIGANTIC DOUCHES.

But extremely attractive ones. With pretty eyes.

[mesmerizedish]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I must be missing something.

Fenris doesn't hate mages because they can be possessed. He hates mages because of what he thinks they'll do to take more power. I think that's what you're missing, and that's where he's being hypocritical. He uses the tools they use to kill the people they kill, but he's not bad because he uses a sword instead of a staff? It's silly.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Miri1984 wrote...

One reason Fenris is a hypocrite: He thinks all mages are dangerous and should be locked in the Circle, yet does not turn Merrill or Anders in. Hypocritical.

Nice of him, yes. But hypocritical.

Granted, I didn't take him with me anywhere last time because I played a warrior and I haven't memorized any non-romance lines from him so I might be forgetting this.. But when does he say this? He says that mages are dangerous. He says that he has a problem with magic. He also says that he doesn't fault people for locking mages in a Circle. He never says that is the only option and the one he approves of and intends to specifically enforce. At least, as far as I remember.

He didn't make killing or imprisoning mages his personal mission. He's not a hypocrite for not doing something he never said he'd do.

[Camenae]

Miri1984 wrote...

But extremely attractive ones. With pretty eyes.

YES.  Nice guys finish last.  Bring on the bad boys.

[MorningBird]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Batteries Yes, and I'm sure he'd come up with a line as snarky, if not more so, than Anders "I thought I was the only one thinking that" when Hawke turns Fenris over to Danarius.

Let's just face it, they're BOTH GIGANTIC DOUCHES.

But extremely attractive ones. With pretty eyes.

Pretty much.

BUT UM, IT ADDS TO THEIR CHARM?

[mesmerizedish]

MorningBird wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Batteries Yes, and I'm sure he'd come up with a line as snarky, if not more so, than Anders "I thought I was the only one thinking that" when Hawke turns Fenris over to Danarius.

Let's just face it, they're BOTH GIGANTIC DOUCHES.

But extremely attractive ones. With pretty eyes.

Pretty much.

BUT UM, IT ADDS TO THEIR CHARM?

Well, duh. Romance is better with people who are ****ed-up.

WHICH IS TOTALLY MY JOB IN THIS RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE YOU'RE PERFECT <3

[Most Definitely Sane]

Camenae wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

But extremely attractive ones. With pretty eyes.

YES.  Nice guys finish last.  Bring on the bad boys.

Just because they're hypocritical, rude, insulting zealots who say horrible things at horrible times doesn't mean they're not nice.

Modifié par Most Definitely Sane, 04 avril 2011 - 04:50 .

[MorningBird]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well, duh. Romance is better with people who are ****ed-up.

WHICH IS TOTALLY MY JOB IN THIS RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE YOU'RE PERFECT <3

D'awwwww.  YOU KNOW JUST WHAT TO SAY TO MAKE ME SWOON!

[Miri1984]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

One reason Fenris is a hypocrite: He thinks all mages are dangerous and should be locked in the Circle, yet does not turn Merrill or Anders in. Hypocritical.

Nice of him, yes. But hypocritical.

Granted, I didn't take him with me anywhere last time because I played a warrior and I haven't memorized any non-romance lines from him so I might be forgetting this.. But when does he say this? He says that mages are dangerous. He says that he has a problem with magic. He also says that he doesn't fault people for locking mages in a Circle. He never says that is the only option and the one he approves of and intends to specifically enforce. At least, as far as I remember.

He didn't make killing or imprisoning mages his personal mission. He's not a hypocrite for not doing something he never said he'd do.

He says on several occasions that the mages need the circle, he turns tattles on you to MEREDITH, RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU if you spare one of the mages in the quest she blackmails you into doing for her in Act III. He approves (gives you friendship points) every time you send apostates to the circle. He and Sebastian have a dialogue (in front of your Hawke AND Anders or Merrill, depending on who you have in your party) where they are egging each other on to turn in Anders and Merrill (not Hawke though, even if Hawke is a MAGE). 

He doesn't explicitly say he wants to lock every mage up in the circle, but he certainly doesn't think any of them deserve to be free.

And the fact that he doesn't act on his convictions does make him hypocritical IMO. Especially if you're saying Anders is hypocritical based on his dialogue about Fenris and Danarius (which I am not disputing, BTW) because, as I said before, it's not ANDERS who's selling Fenris out.

Modifié par Miri1984, 04 avril 2011 - 04:55 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Miri1984 wrote...

He says on several occasions that the mages need the circle, he turns tattles on you to MEREDITH, RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU if you spare one of the mages in the quest she blackmails you into doing for her in Act III. He approves (gives you friendship points) every time you send apostates to the circle. He and Sebastian have a dialogue (in front of your Hawke AND Anders or Merrill, depending on who you have in your party) where they are egging each other on to turn in Anders and Merrill (not Hawke though, even if Hawke is a MAGE). 

He doesn't explicitly say he wants to lock every mage up in the circle, but he certainly doesn't think any of them deserve to be free.

He says they need to be held responsible in some way. That doesn't mean he explicitly supports what the Circle is doing and thinks all mages should go there without exception, he simply doesn't think there is an alternative. He approves of sending them to the Circle because it's better than them running loose. This isn't hypocritical. Almost every one of them turns out to be a blood mage. So... he was right.

Fenris isn't Anders. There's room for a middle ground with him. He doesn't consider himself the end all be all of right and wrong.

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about with him 'tattling', that never happened with me and I played pro-mage with a rivalry with him.

They weren't egging each other on. Sebastian brought it up and Fenris shut it down. That's the point.

[Icy Magebane]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

I must be missing something.

Fenris doesn't hate mages because they can be possessed. He hates mages because of what he thinks they'll do to take more power. I think that's what you're missing, and that's where he's being hypocritical. He uses the tools they use to kill the people they kill, but he's not bad because he uses a sword instead of a staff? It's silly.

So, demonic possession and the mind dominating abilites of blood magic have nothing to do with this.  The fact that magisters routinely sacrifice slaves to gain more fuel for their rituals doesn't enter the discussion...   I'm pretty sure that Fenris says more than once that demonic possession is an issue.  When Anders is arguing about how Fenris should feel for the "oppressed" mages, Fenris counters using that exact argument.  Magic is a tool, but the connection to the Fade is what separates normal people from mages.

Again, Fenris has no connection to the Fade beyond that of any regular person, thus, whatever special powers he has are not open to exploitation and abuse by outside influence.

[Sabariel]

Pretty much every companion is overtly hostile, stupid, rude, or hypocritical at one point or another and yet people are content to point their fingers at Anders. Yes...

[MorningBird]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about with him 'tattling', that never happened with me and I played pro-mage with a rivalry with him.
.

It happens.

If you encourage Emile to 'run away' and then try to lie to Meredith about it (by saying he's dead), Meredith will comment that it's strange they did not find his body, at which point Fenris rats Hawke out by confirming that Emile is still very much alive.

Modifié par MorningBird, 04 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[Icy Magebane]

Sabariel wrote...

Pretty much every companion is overtly hostile, stupid, rude, or hypocritical at one point or another and yet people are content to point their fingers at Anders. Yes...

This is Anders' thread... right?  Although Fenris seems to be hijacking it atm.

[Miri1984]

@Morning Bird and he says something along the lines of "you should be able to catch him if you hurry".

I'm not disputing that Anders is a bit of a jerk. I'm just saying that the other companions, Fenris included, are not pure driven snow in comparison.

[mesmerizedish]

Icy Magebane wrote...

So, demonic possession and the mind dominating abilites of blood magic have nothing to do with this.  The fact that magisters routinely sacrifice slaves to gain more fuel for their rituals doesn't enter the discussion...

Fenris kills lots of people too, with even less reason.

I'm pretty sure that Fenris says more than once that demonic possession is an issue.  When Anders is arguing about how Fenris should feel for the "oppressed" mages, Fenris counters using that exact argument.  Magic is a tool, but the connection to the Fade is what separates normal people from mages.

Of course it's an issue. But it's not the issue. The issue for him is they they'll choose to turn to demons, not that demons will overpower them. He could choose to turn to a demon just as easily. Look at Lady Harimann.

Again, Fenris has no connection to the Fade beyond that of any regular person, thus, whatever special powers he has are not open to exploitation and abuse by outside influence.

They certainly are. He used them to slaughter an entire tribe of Fog Warriors due to "outside influence." He chose to obey Danarius as much as any mage chooses to be possessed.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 04 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[Sabariel]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pretty much every companion is overtly hostile, stupid, rude, or hypocritical at one point or another and yet people are content to point their fingers at Anders. Yes...

This is Anders' thread... right?  Although Fenris seems to be hijacking it atm.

The majority of these threads seem to be: "Anders said ____! I HATE HIM 4EVAR!". Just pointing out that, at one point or another, most of your companions say something as bad or worse than _____.