301 réponses à ce sujet

[Eudaemonium]

Hellosanta wrote...

Eollodwyn wrote...

Did you get the banter between Fenris and Merrill about the Keeper's death?  I thought that actually topped Anders' line in terms of ***hole-ness.  Anders said one line (and if you have Fenris at the time Fenris turns to Anders and says something to th effect of "For once we agree,") but Fenris goes and turns it into a whole conversation.  Nevermind how Fenris trashes Merrill after what happened with Pol.  Really, you can't call Anders on being a jerk to Merrill and insist Fenris is better about that.  They're equally bad.

yes .. Fenris calls Merrill a monster.

There's also the post-Keeper dialogue, which runs something like this.

Fenris "I heard about what happened to your keeper. I'm sorry."

Merrill: "No you aren't. She was ust another mage to you. I bet you're glad she's dead."

Fenris: "Oh, I'm not sorry she died. I'm sorry she died for you."

[ipgd]

Nice people are boring. I much prefer a game full of awful douchebags.

[Sabariel]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Anders may make some mean jokes, but Hawke sort of tops the list on it.

Indeed. Sarcastic!Hawke definitely made some "jokes" and comments that totally floored me.

Modifié par Sabariel, 04 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[Starling2105]

The thing that always bugged me is he had potential to be Female Hawkes awesome little metrosexual/gay buddy (or that's how I saw him at least). I like the happy I-love-kittens side of him. But when that wasn't around he was just a radical ass. Then I reeeaallly hated him after I finished the game..

[ReallyRue]

Sabariel wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Anders may make some mean jokes, but Hawke sort of tops the list on it.

Indeed. Sarcastic!Hawke definitely made some "jokes" and comments that totally floored me.

The "Well it can't get any worse today... it's pretty late" joke when the Viscount is holding his dead son really made me cringe. Also, when you give the bag of bones to Emeric and Hawke says "recognise your mage?" and then when he says that they must be dead, Hawke says "Unless there's a bunch of boneless women flopping about town".

I spent half my time face-palming. SarcasticHawke is often more insensitive than AggressiveHawke.

[StableZaner]

I seriously don't get his blatant hypocrisy when he's giving out to Merrill. In the ends Anders, you with totally bonded with another entity, she wasn't. In the end Anders, you caused a war, killed so many and she didn't.

It makes it very hard for me to want to romance him in any playthroughs.

[Chiramu]

That did not phase me one bit...
You have to remember Anders does not even want to be down there in the Deep Roads, of course he's gonna be resentful to anything that goes on in the place.

[Icy Magebane]

Eudaemonium wrote...
There's also the post-Keeper dialogue, which runs something like this.

Fenris "I heard about what happened to your keeper. I'm sorry."

Merrill: "No you aren't. She was ust another mage to you. I bet you're glad she's dead."

Fenris: "Oh, I'm not sorry she died. I'm sorry she died for you."

lol... good old Fenris.  What can you say?  The guy doesn't like blood mages...  Never heard that since I don't travel with Merrill, but that's pretty funny.

I've been reading some of this stuff that sarcastic Hawke says and it's pretty bad.  Especially the part about "boneless women flopping around."  Ugh... guess that's just a matter of cracking jokes at inappropriate times.  What else would you expect?

[berelinde]

Yes, Anders does say some really horrible, insensitive things. He's like that socially awkward guy at the party who has had too much to drink and decides to start telling jokes. People who don't like him anyway, or who don't know him all that well will think he's an offensive idiot. After the initial shock at the inappropriateness of the latest joke wears off, though, his friends will just shake their heads and let it go. His more protective friends will probably try to get him to call a cab.

The worst part is that when Anders is at his worst, he's just trying to be his old Awakenings self, always ready with the clever bit of snark, but it all goes horribly wrong. Not sure if he knows it, but I like to think that a tiny part of his mind is recoiling in horror at the things coming out of his mouth. He knows that he's changed. He regrets it, but he knows that there's nothing he can do to change the past.

He acknowledges the change himself with Fenris, though he burries it in irony Fenris is too bull-headed to appreciate.

Fenris: Why haven't they locked you up yet?
Anders: I'm charming.

They're both blind, they're both wrong, and they're both selfish. Anders wants to help all mages. Fenris ignores the plight of city elves or of anyone who his harmed by anything that isn't magic. He wants revenge for what was done to himself. Ultimately, Anders knows that he will die for his cause but he does it anyway. Fenris would not make that sacrifice.

[Wynne]

leggywillow wrote...

Anders and Fenris are so unbelievably mean to Merrill that it crosses the line twice and makes me laugh.

When Anders says that to Merrill, Fenris will chime in with "For once we agree on something".  I could almost see them bro-fisting over it as Merrill weeps over Marethari.  Hawke just wanted to bash their sexy little heads together.

*nods emphatically* Exactly. I love both Anders and Fenris, but there are moments in the game that make me just want to kick both of them in the nethers.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Right, he uses his magic
because he can and because it's useful. There's nothing wrong with that,
just as there's nothing wrong with being a mage and casting spells. And
you're wrong about who they're running from. I'll bet that a lot of the
slavers coming after Fenris believed that they were enforcing justice,
just as I'll bet a lot of the templars after Anders are selfish pricks
who are only doing it for the power trip.

Fenris
did nothing to deserve being locked up. Anders has. If Anders hadn't
fused with Justice, maybe he'd have the moral high ground.

Fenris
broke the law. What did Anders do? And I'm not saying that Anders has
the high ground. They're both idiots, and they're both
hypocrites.

It's that kind of outrageously sensible thinking that makes me love you, Ishy.

Miri1984 wrote...

One reason Fenris is a hypocrite: He
thinks all mages are dangerous and should be locked in the Circle, yet
does not turn Merrill or Anders in. Hypocritical.

Nice of him, yes. But hypocritical.

Quite. And you can add Hawke to the equation as well.

There's no reasonable way to argue that Fenris or Anders doesn't have a blind spot--they both clearly do. The only question is the degree of hypocrisy they're both guilty of. Fenris might be a better person, not being possessed and all, but that doesn't make him more right or less hypocritical.

If the Warden hadn't befriended Justice, Anders never would have been possessed at all. No one who's played Awakening should judge him for not realizing the consequences. Who would've thought that Justice would be so badly corrupted by Anders' emotions? Wynne's spirit doesn't do that to her. Maybe if Anders hadn't suffered as he did under the templars, he wouldn't have had that effect on Justice. Talking about beatings, abuse of power, rape--it's obvious Anders went through a lot, not just Fenris.

For the rest of it, I think Berelinde has it right.

Sabariel wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

They're
just a coupla teenage girls with a massive crush on Hawke. I half
expect them to burst into slap fights in the middle of hightown.
Hairpulling and hijinks ensue.

...I would pay to see that [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

*howls with laughter* Ohhhh YES! This was exactly how I saw them in the game... I think they both say things they would regret if they weren't feeling justified because the other is also being a jackass. Like, if Hawke took them aside and gently discussed the issues, making sensible points, they might calm down and see the opposite side. But together, they are indeed those teenage girls.

[SurelyForth]

I think (and maybe it's been said before) that Anders goes after Merrill with such malice because, well, it's his issue, too. It comes across as undiluted hypocrisy, but I think he has a lot of self-loathing that is gets focused on Merrill because he sees her on a similar path, but she hasn't fallen as far as he has.

Outside of how he treats Merrill, Anders' other comments don't bother me that much in context of the game, where everything is far more extreme. I don't see Anders gleefully supporting Fenris' return to Danarius as being any worse than Alistair gleefully agreeing that lying to Morrigan about killing Flemeth would be awesome. They're both ****s for dooming someone else but, were the tables turned, Fenris/Morrigan would probably be just as satisfied (and probably way more incisive in their remarks).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[Beerfish]

Sabariel wrote...

Pretty much every companion is overtly hostile, stupid, rude, or hypocritical at one point or another and yet people are content to point their fingers at Anders. Yes...

Here is the problem with your post.

One time or another is < all the bloody time  and saying someone has man hands is < making fun of the main characters missing mother or the menatal capabilites of a being who could probably sqaush you like a bug.

[SurelyForth]

Beerfish wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Pretty much every companion is overtly hostile, stupid, rude, or hypocritical at one point or another and yet people are content to point their fingers at Anders. Yes...

Here is the problem with your post.

One time or another is < all the bloody time  and saying someone has man hands is < making fun of the main characters missing mother or the menatal capabilites of a being who could probably sqaush you like a bug.

I seriously do not think he's making fun of Hawke's mother there. At all. It's not the most sensitive remark ever, but it's not mocking.

And he's incredibly kind to a romanced Hawke afterwards, so I think it's less character assholishness than BW making everyone a little tonedeaf in that section.

[Plaintiff]

I honestly can't remember a line of Anders I strongly disliked. It's funny to me that people are flaring up over one off-colour joke about Aveline's husband. Isabela makes dozens.

And I think it's safe to say that Aveline isn't exactly distraught about them. She gives as good as she gets.

[ReallyRue]

Anders can be very inappropriate, but it doesn't bother me too much. So can the other characters.

Shale and Zevran were frequently inappropriate in Origins (like Zevran's comment when Cullen starts raving about how he loved Amell/Surana when he's in that cage) but it doesn't stop me loving their characters.

[Corker]

berelinde wrote...

The worst part is that when Anders is at his worst, he's just trying to be his old Awakenings self, always ready with the clever bit of snark, but it all goes horribly wrong. Not sure if he knows it, but I like to think that a tiny part of his mind is recoiling in horror at the things coming out of his mouth. He knows that he's changed. He regrets it, but he knows that there's nothing he can do to change the past.

Perhaps it's a minority opinion, but I found his snark in Awakening to be fairly mean-spirited as well.  It always struck me as the ha-I'm-kidding-but-I'm-not-really-kidding sort of thing.  Just never cottoned to him.

[Hellosanta]

Corker wrote...

berelinde wrote...

The worst part is that when Anders is at his worst, he's just trying to be his old Awakenings self, always ready with the clever bit of snark, but it all goes horribly wrong. Not sure if he knows it, but I like to think that a tiny part of his mind is recoiling in horror at the things coming out of his mouth. He knows that he's changed. He regrets it, but he knows that there's nothing he can do to change the past.

Perhaps it's a minority opinion, but I found his snark in Awakening to be fairly mean-spirited as well.  It always struck me as the ha-I'm-kidding-but-I'm-not-really-kidding sort of thing.  Just never cottoned to him.

I got the same feeling while playing Awakening, too. His jokes are mostly .. sarcastic/cynical. Though I loved it.

[ReallyRue]

Corker wrote...

berelinde wrote...

The worst part is that when Anders is at his worst, he's just trying to be his old Awakenings self, always ready with the clever bit of snark, but it all goes horribly wrong. Not sure if he knows it, but I like to think that a tiny part of his mind is recoiling in horror at the things coming out of his mouth. He knows that he's changed. He regrets it, but he knows that there's nothing he can do to change the past.

Perhaps it's a minority opinion, but I found his snark in Awakening to be fairly mean-spirited as well.  It always struck me as the ha-I'm-kidding-but-I'm-not-really-kidding sort of thing.  Just never cottoned to him.

it definitely was more about mocking someone else than himself or a situation (which is more like what Alistair would do). It was a little like Morrigan, but without the obvious evilness to back it up. His comments when you first meet Oghren are a good example.

[Raelis27]

Regarding Fenris: it's been pointed out that the fact that he refuses to turn Anders and Merril in speaks of his "niceness or moral standards, or something. I honestly don't see it that way. I got the impression he just didn't want to go behind Hawke's back because he either respected him/her or just did't want trouble. I don't think he would go out of his way to turn the mages in, but if Hawke decided to hand Anders and Merril in to to the templars be tranquilled or killed? I don't believe Fenris would say anything other than a "Good riddance".

So yeah,  I think both Anders and Fenris are unforgivable douchebags.

Modifié par Raelis27, 04 avril 2011 - 02:55 .

[autumnyte]

I have to admit that I find Anders' foot-in-mouth disease kind of endearing. There are plenty of times I'd like to smack him or say, "Shut up, Anders". But it humanizes him as a character. Being Captain Inappropriate is as much a part of him as his compassion and his activism, etc.

For me, the most hilarious example is if you are romancing Fenris and you help Anders locate the Sela Petrae (which he has lied to you about) and he chooses that moment to harp on Fenris and your relationship with him. It's especially funny if Fenris is also in the party. Dude, we are helping YOU dig through the freaking sewers. The gratitude is mind-blowing.

And FWIW, I agree that all the companions have moments like this. I just saw for the first time the scene where Merrill disparagingly refers to Feynriel as "that half-breed".

[VenetianLunacy]

He doesn't /have/ to be nice Aveline or Merrill. He ultimately dislikes them, and only tags along because of Hawke. His comments may be insensitive, but he has deeper reasons for his behaviour. Personally, his comments have never bothered me. His snarkiness adds character, and I actually quite like him even more for it.

[Hellosanta]

VenetianLunacy wrote...

He doesn't /have/ to be nice Aveline or Merrill. He ultimately dislikes them, and only tags along because of Hawke. His comments may be insensitive, but he has deeper reasons for his behaviour. Personally, his comments have never bothered me. His snarkiness adds character, and I actually quite like him even more for it.

Yeah, as meanine as Anders is to Aveline, Aveline is also kind of .. mean/ignorant/thoughtless to Anders. Not much like Fenris vs. Anders but still Anders and Aveline don't approve each other. It seems ... Anders just doesn't get along with everyone except Bethany and Varric.

[VenetianLunacy]

Hellosanta wrote...

VenetianLunacy wrote...

He doesn't /have/ to be nice Aveline or Merrill. He ultimately dislikes them, and only tags along because of Hawke. His comments may be insensitive, but he has deeper reasons for his behaviour. Personally, his comments have never bothered me. His snarkiness adds character, and I actually quite like him even more for it.

Yeah, as meanine as Anders is to Aveline, Aveline is also kind of .. mean/ignorant/thoughtless to Anders. Not much like Fenris vs. Anders but still Anders and Aveline don't approve each other. It seems ... Anders just doesn't get along with everyone except Bethany and Varric.

Precisely. And I don't understand why that is such a big deal in this thread. People don't always get along - it is a natural part of life. Anders has his friends and those he cares for, as well as his mission. If he chooses to be cold towards others, then that's his personal choice, isn't it? At least he is firm in his beliefs and does not suck up. Now, THAT would be hypocritical.

[Hellosanta]

VenetianLunacy wrote...

Hellosanta wrote...

VenetianLunacy wrote...

He doesn't /have/ to be nice Aveline or Merrill. He ultimately dislikes them, and only tags along because of Hawke. His comments may be insensitive, but he has deeper reasons for his behaviour. Personally, his comments have never bothered me. His snarkiness adds character, and I actually quite like him even more for it.

Yeah, as meanine as Anders is to Aveline, Aveline is also kind of .. mean/ignorant/thoughtless to Anders. Not much like Fenris vs. Anders but still Anders and Aveline don't approve each other. It seems ... Anders just doesn't get along with everyone except Bethany and Varric.

Precisely. And I don't understand why that is such a big deal in this thread. People don't always get along - it is a natural part of life. Anders has his friends and those he cares for, as well as his mission. If he chooses to be cold towards others, then that's his personal choice, isn't it? At least he is firm in his beliefs and does not suck up. Now, THAT would be hypocritical.

Most companions doesn't like Anders except Varric, Izzy(Izzy and Anders mostly don't agree to each other though) and Bethany because of his status and cause. Thus there is no reason for him to be nice to them while they either don't like him or hate him.

[Sherbet Lemon]

VenetianLunacy wrote...
Precisely. And I don't understand why that is such a big deal in this thread. People don't always get along - it is a natural part of life. Anders has his friends and those he cares for, as well as his mission. If he chooses to be cold towards others, then that's his personal choice, isn't it? At least he is firm in his beliefs and does not suck up. Now, THAT would be hypocritical.

That would be true if these were real life people we were interacting with (though if these people were real I know for a fact that I would run in the opposite direction most expeditiously), but they're not.  We see them through limited means and limited interactions.  How they react to Hawke's fellows aids in determining what they are about as a character.  The banters provide insight into their characterization.  That's why people care.

That being said, I don't like what he says some of the time.  I empathize with Anders.  I think his situation is unfortunate.  I loathe what he does in the end, and feel that he is a deeply conflicted, deeply hypocritical character whose decision to merge with Justice validates the arguments of those who maintain that mages are dangerous.  Ultimately, his final act diminishes some of the tragedy of his situation.  I think the other characters are just as hypocritical and flawed and say some really awful, cruel things.  That goes to say that what they say does not wipe away the nasty things that he says.  Two wrongs do not make a right.

In the end, I love them all (some I love more than others) and enjoy discussing them.