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[Orion34]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Orion34 wrote...

Out of all the bone head moves some of your companions make,I felt this one was the worst (with Anders in a VERY CLOSE second place). The Qunari ended up losing a ship forcing them to stay docked for years,which also caused a ton of tension in the city. Then when they finally snap (and rightfully so) it causes so many deaths for both sides. All because Isabela just made one foolish,selfish move after another. I found it somewhat honorable that she ended up returning,however,I turned her over. Then she has the nerve to be angry with me for doing so instead of taking responsibility for her actions.

I disagree. Anders was absolutely the worst because he did it purposely and willingly with full knowledge of the consequences. Isabela on the other hand got into this spot because she did the right thing freeing a ship full of slaves and got stuck having to steal the relic to get the price off her head. She returns because of another unfortunate bit of concscience.

By turning her in, you prove her right: That nothing good ever comes out of doing the right thing. Because every time she does so, it bites her in the arse. She's more angry at herself at that point for believing in you.

Of course she keeps getting bit in the arse! If she had not stolen the relic to begin with all this chaos and death could have been avoided. Yet when she finally has some sense and returns with it,the whole city is out of control with bodies piling up in the street.
That would be like if someone stole a bear cub,then the mother goes berserk and starts attacking camps,killing everyone in sight. Then the person returns the cub,and expects a free pass from doing so. No f***ing way,man. There is such a thing as karma/cause and effect/whatever you'd like to call it. Being able to forgive someone is nice and all,but they also need to be strong and take responsibility for their actions/mistakes.

[hoorayforicecream]

Orion34 wrote...

Of course she keeps getting bit in the arse! If she had not stolen the relic to begin with all this chaos and death could have been avoided. Yet when she finally has some sense and returns with it,the whole city is out of control with bodies piling up in the street.
That would be like if someone stole a bear cub,then the mother goes berserk and starts attacking camps,killing everyone in sight. Then the person returns the cub,and expects a free pass from doing so. No f***ing way,man. There is such a thing as karma/cause and effect/whatever you'd like to call it. Being able to forgive someone is nice and all,but they also need to be strong and take responsibility for their actions/mistakes.

The Arishok is not a monster or an animal. He is a thinking, rational being fully in control of his own abilities. The reason the Qunari attacked Kirkwall had nothing to do with the relic. The Arishok explained it himself; he could no longer put up with the stuff that bothered him in Kirkwall, so he attacked. It wasn't because the Arishok found out that the relic was being held by somebody, or that Isabela had it. He had no idea where it was. Likening him to an animal is not paying sufficient respect to an honorable, rational creature.

By that same token, nobody knew what the results of stealing the relic from the Orlesians was going to be. Isabela stole the relic from the Orlesians who were set to deliver it to the Qunari, and bolted. The Qunari followed, and they were both shipwrecked. Do you think anyone on any of the ships involved at that point was thinking that the Qunari would attack the city of Kirkwall 4 years later because of the relic? 

In the ensuing 4 years, Isabela didn't *know* where the relic was. She was looking for it. If she found it, do you think she would run off and try to hand it to Castillon so she wouldn't get killed? When she finally found it, she did so briefly before the Arishok attacked. She didn't know how close to attacking the city the Arishok was. Nobody did; that's why Aveline's guards were caught unawares at that situation too. It was tense for sure, but it had been tense for a long time. Furthermore, if she had found it and ran off with it, the Arishok would likely have eventually found out about it and followed her, leaving Kirkwall anyway.

Ultimately, you can't blame Isabela for the Arishok's actions. Sure, she brought them there, but he's the one who did the killing. Nobody forced him to do it. He chose to.

[The Angry One]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Arishok is not a monster or an animal. He is a thinking, rational being fully in control of his own abilities.

Debatable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
The Arishok is not a monster or an animal. He is a thinking, rational being fully in control of his own abilities. The reason the Qunari attacked Kirkwall had nothing to do with the relic. The Arishok explained it himself; he could no longer put up with the stuff that bothered him in Kirkwall, so he attacked. It wasn't because the Arishok found out that the relic was being held by somebody, or that Isabela had it.

I theorized that his attack was to get the nobility hostage and pressure for the return of the relic, because he's tired of searching (debatable how efficient that would be). That's the only way I can make sense of his attack, unless he was really sure that the Qunari can hold Kirkwall, send their fleets in and start an all out war (according to Fenris, they are apparently still preparing).

It is  also possible that the Arishok contacted Meredith (who was obviously the main power in the city), and saw that she was not enthusiastic about keeping some fanatics in line. So he perceived Meredith's inaction as the harboring of enemies, and as such a declaration of war. But that depends entirely on the Arishok contacting Meredith, which we don't know if it happened or not. If it didn't, then the Arishok is politically incompetent as he didn't realize that the poor Viscount was just a figurehead.

I still say that Act 2 was my favorite part of the game, but there are still many problems with it. A large problem is Bioware's inability to potray warfare properly and just seems to want to add as much combat as possible in every occasion. It's not clear why the Arishok did what he did. If he risked war because he couldn't take it anymore, then my respect for him would be reduced and for the Qunari as a whole for not understanding the concept of diplomacy better.

[Icy Magebane]

The Angry One wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Arishok is not a monster or an animal. He is a thinking, rational being fully in control of his own abilities.

Debatable.

That's a good point. I'm not sure if this is what TheAngryOne meant, but the Arishok has no free will. He is bound by the Qun, and does whatever that system dictates, without question or hesitation. He's not really in control of anything, if you look at it that way...

Also, Isabela knew why the Qunari were in Kirkwall... she also knew that they would leave once they had the relic. So giving it to them was the most altruistic option. She's not blind... following Hawke around for all of Act 2, she knew that the Qunari were becoming more and more tense, and that the city was becoming more hostile towards them... whether the result of that would be war isn't really the issue. There was the possibility of conflict, and that could have been avoided if she had immediately returned the book...

Of course, she did not know how close the Arishok was to attempting to take over. All that means is that based on what she knew, giving back the relic would get them to leave. If they said later, "Well yeah, thanks for the book, but after all this time, we've decided we need to convert you," that would be different... the point is that she made no attempt to avert the obvious threat they posed by remaining in the city... the war was indirectly her fault.

[Cutlass Jack]

Orion34 wrote...

Of course she keeps getting bit in the arse! If she had not stolen the relic to begin with all this chaos and death could have been avoided. Yet when she finally has some sense and returns with it,the whole city is out of control with bodies piling up in the street.

That would be like if someone stole a bear cub,then the mother goes berserk and starts attacking camps,killing everyone in sight. Then the person returns the cub,and expects a free pass from doing so. No f***ing way,man. There is such a thing as karma/cause and effect/whatever you'd like to call it. Being able to forgive someone is nice and all,but they also need to be strong and take responsibility for their actions/mistakes.

So by that thought Hawke should be held accountable for the victim of every apostate mage he let go who went on to do horrible blood-magicy things? Should he be held accountable for the destruction of the chantry because he helped Anders gather manure and Saltpeter? (and possibly helped plant it?) Should he be held accountable for retrieving the evil artifact that drove Merideth over the edge? There's a pretty huge list by the end of the game of things Hawke got involved with that went horribly wrong. Its a little hypocritical for him to throw that particular stone I feel.

The only way it could have been avoided is if she hadn't chosen to free a ship full of slaves. An unquestionably good act. That led to the stealing of the artifact...which was from Orlesians, not the Quinari. By the time she realized what she had it was already too late. The storm hit, the ships sank, and she lost the book.

Even if she had been 100% honest with Hawke the entire game and hadn't run off, the book still would not have been returned in time to prevent the incident with the elves. That is what really lit the powderkeg. Even if you give the Book and Isabela over to the Arishok he leaves with a vow of returning one day to finish the job. What brought him to that boiling point was not Isabela. It was the actions of Patrice and her followers.

If you feel she needs to pay for that its fine. But remember, the only reason she came back is because Hawke decided to give the book to her, not the Arishok. She had to overcome a lifetime of people using her for their own ends to come back. While it would have been nice if she came to the conclusion to trust you faster, its pretty easy to see why it took an hour or so.

[Icy Magebane]

@Cutlass Jack: I always say that I'm giving the book to the Qunari and she still comes back... it's about Hawke's previous influence on her (friendship or rivalry), not that specific decision...  Not that I'm trying to correct you or anything.  I'm just pointing that out...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 04 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Cutlass Jack: I always say that I'm giving the book to the Qunari and she still comes back... it's about Hawke's previous influence on her (friendship or rivalry), not that specific decision...  Not that I'm trying to correct you or anything.  I'm just pointing that out...

Well the strategy guide tells it the same way I did. And I know on my wife's playthrough, she picked that option and Isabela did not come back even with 100% friendship. When she replayed that picking the other option she did.

So might be other factors at work. Or a bug.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 04 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Icy Magebane]

Hm... romance might be a factor. I know for a fact that 50% Friendship or Rivalry works, but I was also in a romance... I'm guessing that was it.

[Cutlass Jack]

Must be the romance thing. She wasn't doing Isabela (pardon the pun) that time around.

[The Angry One]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Arishok is not a monster or an animal. He is a thinking, rational being fully in control of his own abilities.

Debatable.

That's a good point. I'm not sure if this is what TheAngryOne meant, but the Arishok has no free will. He is bound by the Qun, and does whatever that system dictates, without question or hesitation. He's not really in control of anything, if you look at it that way...

While my own opinions on the Arishok's competence are well known, yes my point is that you could argue that the Arishok is an automaton. He is bound by a set of directives just like any robot and can never deviate from them.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

That's a good point. I'm not sure if this is what TheAngryOne meant, but the Arishok has no free will. He is bound by the Qun, and does whatever that system dictates, without question or hesitation. He's not really in control of anything, if you look at it that way...

If the Qun demanded that the Arishok attack Kirkwall, he would have attacked Kirkwall at the outset, no hesitation. He only did so after four years because he could no longer tolerate what was going on around him. When he attacked, it was not because he believed they were harboring the book and keeping it from him. He attacked because he felt that he could no longer stand the normality of Kirkwall. The Qun isn't some sort of ruler or decision-making body. It's a philosophy, and as such it needs to be interpreted by its followers.

Also, Isabela knew why the Qunari were in Kirkwall... she also knew that they would leave once they had the relic. So giving it to them was the most altruistic option. She's not blind... following Hawke around for all of Act 2, she knew that the Qunari were becoming more and more tense, and that the city was becoming more hostile towards them... whether the result of that would be war isn't really the issue. There was the possibility of conflict, and that could have been avoided if she had immediately returned the book...

Of course, she did not know how close the Arishok was to attempting to take over. All that means is that based on what she knew, giving back the relic would get them to leave. If they said later, "Well yeah, thanks for the book, but after all this time, we've decided we need to convert you," that would be different... the point is that she made no attempt to avert the obvious threat they posed by remaining in the city... the war was indirectly her fault.

The book that she didn't have? The one that she had been looking for since she lost it? There was nothing she could have done after she originally lost the book four years before the Qunari attack except keep looking for the book. Which is exactly what she did.

I'm not saying Isabela's guilt-free in this. It's her fault that the Qunari arrived at Kirkwall. However, you can't equate the Qunari's presence with the Qunari's decision to attack the city. To do so would be to completely absolve the Qunari in general of all of their actions, and that's not only silly, it's demeaning to the Qunari.

Edit: The reason Isabela comes back (from a metagaming standpoint) is the completion of the "Questioning Beliefs" quest at the 50% midpoint of friendship or rivalry. Find further elaboration in the Isabela FAQ linked in my sig.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 04 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[Sathwater]

laecraft wrote...

When the Arishok asks me to hand her over, I wanted an option to say, "Tell me, Arishok: what would you do, in my place?"

Wow, amazingly clever way to turn it around on the sanctimonius didact. Yeah Arishok, I'm not so keen on giving you what you demand when your solution to everything is "Eh, they gave me an inch, I'll give them a slaughter."

[The Angry One]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If the Qun demanded that the Arishok attack Kirkwall, he would have attacked Kirkwall at the outset, no hesitation. He only did so after four years because he could no longer tolerate what was going on around him. When he attacked, it was not because he believed they were harboring the book and keeping it from him. He attacked because he felt that he could no longer stand the normality of Kirkwall. The Qun isn't some sort of ruler or decision-making body. It's a philosophy, and as such it needs to be interpreted by its followers.

There is no interpretation here.
To the Qun, all those not of the Qun are bas. "Objects". Attacking an object is likely not forbidden by the Qun.
Therefore it's within his programmed directives to attack them. A robot with no free will can make situational decisions too.

[Arppis]

The Angry One wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If the Qun demanded that the Arishok attack Kirkwall, he would have attacked Kirkwall at the outset, no hesitation. He only did so after four years because he could no longer tolerate what was going on around him. When he attacked, it was not because he believed they were harboring the book and keeping it from him. He attacked because he felt that he could no longer stand the normality of Kirkwall. The Qun isn't some sort of ruler or decision-making body. It's a philosophy, and as such it needs to be interpreted by its followers.

There is no interpretation here.
To the Qun, all those not of the Qun are bas. "Objects". Attacking an object is likely not forbidden by the Qun.
Therefore it's within his programmed directives to attack them. A robot with no free will can make situational decisions too.

Women are bas!

[hoorayforicecream]

The Angry One wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If the Qun demanded that the Arishok attack Kirkwall, he would have attacked Kirkwall at the outset, no hesitation. He only did so after four years because he could no longer tolerate what was going on around him. When he attacked, it was not because he believed they were harboring the book and keeping it from him. He attacked because he felt that he could no longer stand the normality of Kirkwall. The Qun isn't some sort of ruler or decision-making body. It's a philosophy, and as such it needs to be interpreted by its followers.

There is no interpretation here.
To the Qun, all those not of the Qun are bas. "Objects". Attacking an object is likely not forbidden by the Qun.
Therefore it's within his programmed directives to attack them. A robot with no free will can make situational decisions too.

Then why did he wait 4 years to attack?

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
There is no interpretation here.
To the Qun, all those not of the Qun are bas. "Objects". Attacking an object is likely not forbidden by the Qun.
Therefore it's within his programmed directives to attack them. A robot with no free will can make situational decisions too.

While they may view non-Qunari as objects (I think that's debatable and taking it a bit too literally. Sten didn't think the Warden was an object even at the beginning), I don't think they just allow the Qunari to slaughter bas at will for no reason. They may not consider it immoral, but they'd consider it useless and not demanded by the Qun.

Sten expresses regret at killing bas. Yes yes, he may regret the fact that he lost control more than killing them. But still, that does seem to show that the Qun doesn't just allow its followers to kill bas for the lulz without thinking and for no reason. 

That is not to say that the Qunari wouldn't kill bas (would be intersting to see how many they killed during the wars). but it's for a specific purpose.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 05:09 .

[Lestatman]

Every time I entered the Qunari base Isabella would make some excuse that she had to go away which seems to me she knew what the relic was therefore she had to know what the consequences where going to be.

I actually liked handing her over to the Arishok and like some other people was disapointed to hear she managed to escape. Maybe in DA3 you get the chance to fight her.

[The Angry One]

Arppis wrote...



Women are bas! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

*deploys murder knife*

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Then why did he wait 4 years to attack?

Because he was searching for the relic. Remember he only starts attacking when the relic becomes out of reach.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While they may view non-Qunari as objects (I think that's debatable and taking it a bit too literally. Sten didn't think the Warden was an object even at the beginning), I don't think they just allow the Qunari to slaughter bas at will for no reason. They may not consider it immoral, but they'd consider it useless and not demanded by the Qun.

Sten expresses regret at killing bas. Yes yes, he may regret the fact that he lost control more than killing them. But still, that does seem to show that the Qun doesn't just allow its followers to kill bas for the lulz without thinking and for no reason. 

That is not to say that the Qunari wouldn't kill bas (would be intersting to see how many they killed during the wars). but it's for a specific purpose.

Sten expressing regret just tells me he's less of an automaton than the Arishok. Perhaps actually killing innocent civilians and children shook enough to make him realise bas are people too.

[Orion34]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Orion34 wrote...

Of course she keeps getting bit in the arse! If she had not stolen the relic to begin with all this chaos and death could have been avoided. Yet when she finally has some sense and returns with it,the whole city is out of control with bodies piling up in the street.

That would be like if someone stole a bear cub,then the mother goes berserk and starts attacking camps,killing everyone in sight. Then the person returns the cub,and expects a free pass from doing so. No f***ing way,man. There is such a thing as karma/cause and effect/whatever you'd like to call it. Being able to forgive someone is nice and all,but they also need to be strong and take responsibility for their actions/mistakes.

So by that thought Hawke should be held accountable for the victim of every apostate mage he let go who went on to do horrible blood-magicy things? Should he be held accountable for the destruction of the chantry because he helped Anders gather manure and Saltpeter? (and possibly helped plant it?) Should he be held accountable for retrieving the evil artifact that drove Merideth over the edge? There's a pretty huge list by the end of the game of things Hawke got involved with that went horribly wrong. Its a little hypocritical for him to throw that particular stone I feel.
.

You do have a point. But also, if you were aware of what Anders was doing and had the ability to stop him before he carried out his plans,would you? Isabela didn't mention a word about it until everything was at the breaking point. All she had to do was step up and take responsibility from the very beginning.

[Arppis]

The Angry One wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Women are bas! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

*deploys murder knife*

"You... evil witch.. "
*Death groan...* 

Modifié par Arppis, 04 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[Icy Magebane]

@horrayforicecream: I understand what the Qun is... my point was that until the Arishok reached the point where the Qun demanded he act, he was bound and therefore unable to act. He makes it pretty clear early on that he wants to convert Kirkwall but at that point it isn't demanded by the Qun. Constant contact with the city and its "problems" are what make the decision for him... I won't even touch the 4 years part. IMO, this story did not take 7 years to tell, and the time skips felt forced...

As for Isabela not having the book...  when she finally has it, she takes it and either gives it to Castillon or not (when she returns). The Qunari were on the verge of war, based on all the events of Act 2... she didn't know how close, that's true, but she did know that giving them the book at least held the possibility of getting rid of them. If she knew already that they would attack regardless, then it wouldn't be her fault. But since she did not know, she failed to act in a way that would remove a potential threat from the city. These selfish actions deserved a punishment IMO... plus, I don't forgive companion betrayal. Fool me once, etc...

Since I haven't yet mentioned it, I was also annoyed when she escaped. But it's not unexpected... she's too important to the story to be gone for good, and of course, her escape allows her to reappear in subsequent games with no messy story complications.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 04 avril 2011 - 05:21 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Angry One wrote...
Because he was searching for the relic. Remember he only starts attacking when the relic becomes out of reach.

Actually, no. The Arishok did not know where the relic was. If he knew where the relic was, then he has failed the Qun for attacking the city rather than recovering the relic (unless he somehow thought that attacking the city would get him the relic... which he didn't. If he had, he wouldn't have been surprised if/when Isabela returns with the tome). If he did not know where it was, then the circumstances regarding the relic hadn't changed and would still give him no reason to attack the city since they hadn't for four years.

The only logical conclusion from this is that he did not know where it was.