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[Icy Magebane]

Reasons to attack Kirkwall: The elven criminal standoff, the deaths of the Qunari delegates, the death of Seamus, the Chantry's involvement in spreading bigotry, among other things.

The Arishok could not leave Kirkwall without the relic. He could not allow Kirkwall to remain free of Qunari rule due to events that took place in the 4th year.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Reasons to attack Kirkwall: The elven criminal standoff, the deaths of the Qunari delegates, the death of Seamus, the Chantry's involvement in spreading bigotry, among other things.

The Arishok could not leave Kirkwall without the relic. He could not allow Kirkwall to remain free of Qunari rule due to events that took place in the 4th year.

I think a stronger reason would have been this:

The Arishok, realiszing that the Viscount is only a figurehead and that Meredith is the real power in the city, contacted her to tell her to keep fanatics (some within her own Templar ranks) in line. She either said no, or was unethusiastic about it, implying that she doesn't give a ****. The Arishok percieved that as Kirkwall's authority harboring enemies of the Qun, and thus a violation of the Accords and a declaration of war. So he preempted and took the nobility hostage to keep Meredith off his people.

But we don't know if that happened or not. Wouldn't be farfetched or impossible. Both the Arishok and Meredith are not particularily known for being subtle and that diplomatic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[The Angry One]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Because he was searching for the relic. Remember he only starts attacking when the relic becomes out of reach.

Actually, no. The Arishok did not know where the relic was. If he knew where the relic was, then he has failed the Qun for attacking the city rather than recovering the relic (unless he somehow thought that attacking the city would get him the relic... which he didn't. If he had, he wouldn't have been surprised if/when Isabela returns with the tome). If he did not know where it was, then the circumstances regarding the relic hadn't changed and would still give him no reason to attack the city since they hadn't for four years.

The only logical conclusion from this is that he did not know where it was.

There were Qunari squads tracking down the relic before Isabela makes off with it.
Are you saying the Qunari are so stupid that they did this without the knowledge of the Arishok, had no chain of command reporting back to him and if they did that the Arishok didn't put 2 and 2 together and work out the relic was gone?

[Arppis]

For some reason when I see this thread: I can still hear male (teh true hawke!!!11one) Hawke saying: "ISABELLA!"(when he investigates the railing in the mansion).

...which is a totaly valid reason for turning her over to the QUN! Nobody scraches my price-railing! NOBODY!

Modifié par Arppis, 04 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[Icy Magebane]

@KnightofPhoenix: It's not a bad idea, but I just don't see the Arishok as being that diplomatic or respectful of foreign leaders... all he ever says to the Viscount is "begone." I mean, yeah, Meredith is the real power, but it's not like he respects the Chantry enough to ask them for anything...

I think you may be giving the Arishok too much credit. Rather, you are making him seem more diplomatic than he really was. The attack wasn't a preemptive strike, but an act of aggression. After all, he could just, you know, leave the city where he wasn't wanted or invited... Just my opinions...

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Reasons to attack Kirkwall: The elven criminal standoff, the deaths of the Qunari delegates, the death of Seamus, the Chantry's involvement in spreading bigotry, among other things.

The Arishok could not leave Kirkwall without the relic. He could not allow Kirkwall to remain free of Qunari rule due to events that took place in the 4th year.

The Arishok says they will eventually come back and attack the city anyway (he says so if he is given the relic or if Hawke slays him). So Isabela handing in the relic would only result in delaying the invasion regardless. The Qun demands that the Qunari eventually come and crush Kirkwall. In that regard, the ones at fault for the invasion are the Kirkwallers, not Isabela.

[Cutlass Jack]

The Angry One wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Because he was searching for the relic. Remember he only starts attacking when the relic becomes out of reach.

Actually, no. The Arishok did not know where the relic was. If he knew where the relic was, then he has failed the Qun for attacking the city rather than recovering the relic (unless he somehow thought that attacking the city would get him the relic... which he didn't. If he had, he wouldn't have been surprised if/when Isabela returns with the tome). If he did not know where it was, then the circumstances regarding the relic hadn't changed and would still give him no reason to attack the city since they hadn't for four years.

The only logical conclusion from this is that he did not know where it was.

There were Qunari squads tracking down the relic before Isabela makes off with it.
Are you saying the Qunari are so stupid that they did this without the knowledge of the Arishok, had no chain of command reporting back to him and if they did that the Arishok didn't put 2 and 2 together and work out the relic was gone?

The Arishok attacked the city because of 'Kirkwall Justice' demanding the return of the elves he was harboring. It was the final insult to the Qun he would not stand for.

It wasn't about the Relic. He had word from the one person he respected at that point to get it back for him and decided it no longer mattered. Even if he gets the book he plainly states he plans to return to finish the job.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix: It's not a bad idea, but I just don't see the Arishok as being that diplomatic or respectful of foreign leaders... all he ever says to the Viscount is "begone." I mean, yeah, Meredith is the real power, but it's not like he respects the Chantry enough to ask them for anything...

I think you may be giving the Arishok too much credit. Rather, you are making him seem more diplomatic than he really was. The attack wasn't a preemptive strike, but an act of aggression. After all, he could just, you know, leave the city where he wasn't wanted or invited... Just my opinions...

Not saying it was, I am saying it could have been, at least in his own mind.

And I am not expecting the Arishok to send very polite delegates to Meredith (though the ones he sent to the Viscount were reasonable and peaceful according to him).

But something like:
Arishok: "Listen bas, put your fanatics in line or I'll do it for you"
Meredith: "Meh, I wish I could care heathen"

Bam, the Arishok concieves that as an act of war. Would he have been completely reasonable? No, and I am not trying to make him so.

What I am trying to do is make sense of his attack that strategically speaking doens't make that much sense.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 05:40 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Angry One wrote...

There were Qunari squads tracking down the relic before Isabela makes off with it.
Are you saying the Qunari are so stupid that they did this without the knowledge of the Arishok, had no chain of command reporting back to him and if they did that the Arishok didn't put 2 and 2 together and work out the relic was gone?

If he had such an extensive intelligence network like you say, he would have found it long before she did. She's one person, he's got an entire army searching for it. They both had 4 years to find it. She found it first. I think you overestimate the Arishok's ability.

[Icy Magebane]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Reasons to attack Kirkwall: The elven criminal standoff, the deaths of the Qunari delegates, the death of Seamus, the Chantry's involvement in spreading bigotry, among other things.

The Arishok could not leave Kirkwall without the relic. He could not allow Kirkwall to remain free of Qunari rule due to events that took place in the 4th year.

The Arishok says they will eventually come back and attack the city anyway (he says so if he is given the relic or if Hawke slays him). So Isabela handing in the relic would only result in delaying the invasion regardless. The Qun demands that the Qunari eventually come and crush Kirkwall. In that regard, the ones at fault for the invasion are the Kirkwallers, not Isabela.

No, I agree with that.  However, Isabela did not have this information.  For all she knew, returning the relic would get them to finally leave.  Instead of handing it over and trusting Hawke to protect her, she runs and leaves the city to whatever fate awaits it.  This is the real problem... while she isn't responsible for the Arishok's eventual decision, at this point in the story, she doesn't know what's going to happen and puts herself above everyone else.

Also, keep in mind that you have to do some rather specific things to even get her to return... this also reflects poorly on her character.  All I'm saying is that a person who is this selfish should face the consequences, especially when they have betrayed the PC at least once.

And again, for those who refuse to hand Isabela over, that's fine too. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not saying it was, I am saying it could have been, at least in his own mind.

And I am not expecting the Arishok to send very polite delegates to Meredith (though the ones he sent to the Viscount were reasonable and peaceful according to him).

But something like:
Arishok: "Listen bas, put your fanatics in line or I'll do it for you"
Meredith: "Meh, I wish I could care heathen"

Bam, the Arishok concieves that as an act of war. Would he have been completely reasonable? No, and I am not trying to make him so.

What I am trying to do is make sense of his attack that strategically speaking doens't make that much sense.

I don't know... at this point, Hawke had been the mediator for some time.  Even if you earn his respect, the Arishok won't change his mind. All you can do is agree with whatever he says and try to keep him calm... and inevitably, you fail.

I think that had the Arishok sent delegates to deliver any kind of message to Meredith, the Templars would have been more alert and prepared for the eventual conflict.  Or at least, I'd hope so...  actually, given all the events going on, it's weird that everyone gets taken by surprise like that...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 04 avril 2011 - 05:56 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

No, I agree with that.  However, Isabela did not have this information.  For all she knew, returning the relic would get them to finally leave.  Instead of handing it over and trusting Hawke to protect her, she runs and leaves the city to whatever fate awaits it.  This is the real problem... while she isn't responsible for the Arishok's eventual decision, at this point in the story, she doesn't know what's going to happen and puts herself above everyone else.

Also, keep in mind that you have to do some rather specific things to even get her to return... this also reflects poorly on her character.  All I'm saying is that a person who is this selfish should face the consequences, especially when they have betrayed the PC at least once.

And again, for those who refuse to hand Isabela over, that's fine too. 

I'm cool with her facing some consequences for her actions. In fact, I was smiling when Aveline said "Oh no no no. If anyone kicks her ass, it's me." I just dislike people saying "She's the one to blame for the Qunari invasion", when there's a good amount of evidence that it's the Qunari who are to blame for the Qunari invasion .

[Orion34]

Icy Magebane wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Reasons to attack Kirkwall: The elven criminal standoff, the deaths of the Qunari delegates, the death of Seamus, the Chantry's involvement in spreading bigotry, among other things.

The Arishok could not leave Kirkwall without the relic. He could not allow Kirkwall to remain free of Qunari rule due to events that took place in the 4th year.

The Arishok says they will eventually come back and attack the city anyway (he says so if he is given the relic or if Hawke slays him). So Isabela handing in the relic would only result in delaying the invasion regardless. The Qun demands that the Qunari eventually come and crush Kirkwall. In that regard, the ones at fault for the invasion are the Kirkwallers, not Isabela.

No, I agree with that.  However, Isabela did not have this information.  For all she knew, returning the relic would get them to finally leave.  Instead of handing it over and trusting Hawke to protect her, she runs and leaves the city to whatever fate awaits it.  This is the real problem... while she isn't responsible for the Arishok's eventual decision, at this point in the story, she doesn't know what's going to happen and puts herself above everyone else.

Also, keep in mind that you have to do some rather specific things to even get her to return... this also reflects poorly on her character.  All I'm saying is that a person who is this selfish should face the consequences, especially when they have betrayed the PC at least once.

And again, for those who refuse to hand Isabela over, that's fine too. 

If only she had decided to become a ninja instead. Tsk tsk...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Icy Magebane wrote...
I don't know... at this point, Hawke had been the mediator for some time.  Even if you earn his respect, the Arishok won't change his mind. All you can do is agree with whatever he says and try to keep him calm... and inevitably, you fail.

I am not saying he would change his mind at all.

I think that had the Arishok sent delegates to deliver any kind of message to Meredith, the Templars would have been more alert and prepared for the eventual conflict.  Or at least, I'd hope so...  actually, given all the events going on, it's weird that everyone gets taken by surprise like that...

Meredith could have just dismissed the Arishok's threats as heathen nonsense. Or she might have wanted war in the first place, knowing that she would be the one to save Kikrwall and thus increase her power.

Of course if Meredith was more developped as a character, we would have had a stronger idea of what she was doign at the time.

But I am not saying all this happened. I don't know if it happened and I don't know if it didn't happen. I am saying it's possible and would like more info on this.

[Icy Magebane]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm cool with her facing some consequences for her actions. In fact, I was smiling when Aveline said "Oh no no no. If anyone kicks her ass, it's me." I just dislike people saying "She's the one to blame for the Qunari invasion", when there's a good amount of evidence that it's the Qunari who are to blame for the Qunari invasion .

I'm sure I said that at least once, and that was wrong...   Blaming her for what she did is good enough for me.  Like I said, as much as I enjoy handing her to the Arishok, I would rather just kill him instead.  At the very least, he won't be one of the Qunari that threatens Kirkwall in the future.

Now if only they'd fix the Thumbs Up glitch so I could just act normal around Isabela and not have to be rivals... that path truly sucks.

[Camenae]

Arppis you troll...

[Cutlass Jack]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm cool with her facing some consequences for her actions. In fact, I was smiling when Aveline said "Oh no no no. If anyone kicks her ass, it's me." I just dislike people saying "She's the one to blame for the Qunari invasion", when there's a good amount of evidence that it's the Qunari who are to blame for the Qunari invasion .

That was actually Aveline implying she cared about Isabela and what happened to her. She was one of the people Aveline got overprotective of. Which is why I smiled. And also why you take a rivalry hit with Aveline for not agreeing to give the book to her instead of the Arishok. (and also with Varric & Merril)

[Camenae]

And personally I laughed when Isabela came up at the end of Act II and was like "I'm going to die! There got your attention didn't I?" and I was like, ummmm, no? What did you expect was going to happen? Somebody has a pretty high opinion of herself.

[The Angry One]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Arishok attacked the city
because of 'Kirkwall Justice' demanding the return of the elves he was
harboring. It was the final insult to the Qun he would not stand for.

It
wasn't about the Relic. He had word from the one person he respected at
that point to get it back for him and decided it no longer mattered.
Even if he gets the book he plainly states he plans to return to finish
the job.

Yes. Why? Because the Qun demands it.
Here is my point.
His primary directive is to recover the relic.
His overall directive is to spread the Qun, the nation that must be.

With his primary directive momentarily made impossible, the automaton moves to his overall directive. Spread the Qun. Capture Kirkwall.

He is a robot.

[hoorayforicecream]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm cool with her facing some consequences for her actions. In fact, I was smiling when Aveline said "Oh no no no. If anyone kicks her ass, it's me." I just dislike people saying "She's the one to blame for the Qunari invasion", when there's a good amount of evidence that it's the Qunari who are to blame for the Qunari invasion .

That was actually Aveline implying she cared about Isabela and what happened to her. She was one of the people Aveline got overprotective of. Which is why I smiled. And also why you take a rivalry hit with Aveline for not agreeing to give the book to her instead of the Arishok. (and also with Varric & Merril)

Oh I don't disagree. However, Aveline is the same Aveline who jailed Isabela for two weeks and extracted a promise not to duel near the hanged man any more due to the fracas she caused that one time. Aveline wouldn't be the type to just let Isabela go scott-free, but she would take her returning into account for leniency (which would likely end up turning Isabela over to Hawke to be her chaperone or something).

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
He is a robot.

What's wrong with robots?
I mean, don't you want to hug this?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[Camenae]

I loooooove Legion. He/she? Is very adorable. Especially his/her hero worship of Shepard.

[The Angry One]

I could well argue that Legion is far less of a robot than the Arishok.

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

I loooooove Legion. He/she? Is very adorable. Especially his/her hero worship of Shepard.

They is probably more accurate.

[_purifico_]

Yup, I did it and felt no regret. Because Arishok is worthy of respect, and Isabela is not. Easy as that. Hookers are all around Kirkwall, while honorable men are not, so I'd rather hand her treacherous behind over, than kill Arishok. And spare me your talk about what a heart of gold she has, because at the end of the day she is mostly a talking pair of boobs and an easy **** - and those things I can just as easily get in Blooming Rose (more safe and sanitary too )

[KnightofPhoenix]

Despite the respect I have for the Qunari, I find the Geth to be wiser. The fact that Legion starts to question "what did we do wrong?" (makes me want to tear up and hug him btw), is something you probably wouldn't hear a Qunari say, at least now. Also while they do name the other geth as "heretics", Legion does say that they are not wrong. They just have a different perspective, based on the similar equation. But they still need to "die" or be reprogrammed.

Plus, the Geth don't seem interested with ruling over organics. They could, considering how the "heretics" alone destroyed the Citadel fleet with ease and they are just a tiny percentage of the "real" Geth.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 avril 2011 - 06:23 .