275 réponses à ce sujet

[skunkdoctor]

Well said catabuca. Furthering that, I've yet to see anyone sufficiently explain to me how these characters are even bi, nor has anyone explained why a sexuality shift in a different playthrough makes a character inconsistent. I don't really feel like explaining why a playthrough is meant to be taken as a single entity again, so I won't. But to say that Hawkesexuality (not bi, except Isabella I think) = inconsistency is like saying because in some alternate universe I may be hooking up with a man I have an inconsistent personality. It's ridiculous.

[catabuca]

Another thing: on the point of them somehow 'changing' between playthroughs ... quite frankly, they don't. They are the same character, they simply met and interacted with either fHawke or mHawke, that's all.

If I play mHawke, I can romance any of the characters, right? During none of my conversations with them will they tell me they only like men or women. Anders may tell me he likes 'the whole person', but that's about as close to a statement of anything we get.

If I play fHawke, I can still romance any of the characters. During none of my conversations do any of them tell me they only like men or women.

Clearly, whoever I choose to romance likes whichever gender my Hawke happens to be, but they don't talk about whether they like the opposite too (I haven't romanced Isabela yet, so I'm unsure of what she says on this subject). It just doesn't generally come up.

So how on earth can we say with certainty that these characters are somehow 'changing' between playthroughs?

If Merrill says on a fHawke run "I only like women", and then on a mHawke run she says "I only like men" you'd have a point. But she doesn't.

There is scope to interpret the characters as you want, but if you want to get down to brass tacks, the lack of a declarative statement either way does not mean they are definitively one thing or another.

And of course, this is related to the issue of 'characterisation' and whether they are 'realistic' or not, because the fact they don't make a statement either way, for some means they are shallow. Whereas, as far as I'm concerned, it simply means they just don't talk about it.

[jlb524]

bzombo wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It's interesting that Leliana is brought up as an example of the obvious and 'static' bisexual from a DA game.

I only played the game as a female and that woman showed zero interest in men beyond sleeping with them in the past as part of her job. On the other hand, there were a few instances where she showed an obvious sexual and romantic attraction to women.  I think I would be justified in believing she was a full on lady lovin lesbian gal.

Can't speak for your experience, but she always seemed to me to be genuinely interested in both sexes.

Having played the game about 7 times as a female exclusively, I've seen no genuine interest in men from her.  Does she 'change it up' for the male PC..oh noes.

[Siansonea]

I really enjoyed the OP of this thread. Solid ups.

[Xilizhra]

I agre with jlb. Leliana mentions sleeping with men for pragmatic reasons, but never for attraction.

[bzombo]

catabuca wrote...

bzombo wrote...

hmmm.....i see where you're going, but i think the main idea is that the majority of npcs should have an identity. some straight, some gay, and if there's a character or two that is bisexual, then that is fine too. why does every npc need to be written for both gay and straight pcs? does a gay npc need a special story to explain how they "became gay"? no. we agree on that. it does, however, weaken the character interaction when every npc can be anything. there's no consistency. i guess it comes down to taste, but i think if most npcs have specific sexual identities it would allow for deeper interaction and a more realistic interaction. both gay and straight people in real life meet other people that they can't "romance", so to speak. i think it adds more to the game if the npcs reflect that as well.

I'm just going to quote myself from up the page, honestly sorry, but I've typed this same thing out so many times now I'm sending myself crazy

I wrote...

What elements should BW write into a straight character in order to make them 'convincingly' straight?

How
would Merrill explaining to me in a conversation, even though I'm not
romancing her, that she is attracted to both men and women make me feel
any more emotion toward her already very emotional companion arc? Would
it make what can happen to her clan any more poignant? Would it have
made me cry for even longer than it did anyway? I highly doubt it.

How
would Fenris discussing how many men and women he's slept with
previously make that moment when he leaves Hawke in act 2 any more
astonishing? The way his voice cracks when he says, "I can't ... I
can't" is amazingly written and amazingly delivered -- it gives us a
glimpse into how difficult a relationship is for him, how painful his
past still is. Why do I need him to wear a sign around his neck that
says, "These are the ways in which I'm convincingly bisexual: ..." in
order to feel for him as a character, in order for Hawke to fall in love
with him, in order for Hawke to feel confused, hurt, sad when he
leaves? I don't.

It would, indeed, be fantastic if BW could
afford to give us a panoply of gay, straight and bisexual characters as
romance options, but sadly that isn't possible. What is possible is to
continue to write characters who have emotional backstories, conflicting
motivations, and interesting companion/romance arcs, and to make that
content accessible to as many players as possible in as equal a way as
possible. That is what they have done in DA2, and until such a time as
they have the vast resources to make multiple characters of all
orientations for us, I will continue to support them in this choice, and
wholeheartedly hope it's something they continue with in the future, in
some way or another.

No one should underestimate how powerful it is to actually be given choice
in this regard. Those same people upset at a lack of choice in regards
to the main plot of DA2 would actually take the one choice that exists
in the game away because they don't like it? What a crying shame.

My point being, I have no idea how any of the characters having a conversation with me about which genitalia they prefer would a) make their characters more realistic; deepen my interactions with them -- for the reasons I outline above. What is more, you DO meet characters you can't romance -- Varric, Aveline, etc. So that argument is out of the window.

I have no problem with people wishing Anders mentioned Karl to fHawke, I have no problem with people wishing a character did mention their sexuality -- really, no problem. What I *do* have a problem with is the way a lack of talking about it is taken to mean they aren't 'real' characters, that you can't interact with them on a meaningful level *unless* they tell you which way they swing first.

For me it is enough that Fenris chuckles when I say saucy things to him -- he clearly likes me, and that's awesome. For me it's enough that Anders thinks I'm a 'rare man indeed' (in fact, that line made me chuckle, considering the other meaning of 'rare') -- he clearly likes me, and that's awesome. Yes, sure, it's nice that Anders tells me about Karl, and it's nice that he says he loves a whole person -- but if he hadn't have said that, I would have still felt the same way about him when he rages against his inner demons, when he says he doesn't know whether to kiss me or kill me, when he passionately reads out his manifesto to me, and so on. There is SO MUCH in all of these characters that draws you close to them, that creates an emotional bond with them (although I'm the first to say I dearly hope BW decides to add additional companion interaction in their next game), that a declaration of sexual preference wouldn't have made them feel any more real, or made me feel any closer to them during their companion arcs.

i'm not saying npcs should have to announce their orientation. that would be awkward. there would just not be romance dialog.

[Akka le Vil]

catabuca wrote...

My point being, I have no idea how any of the characters having a conversation with me about which genitalia they prefer would a) make their characters more realistic; deepen my interactions with them -- for the reasons I outline above.

/facepalm

"when the sage point at the moon, the idiot look at the fingher"

[LiquidGrape]

OnionXI wrote...

Then take Anders, who was pining for freedom and a "pretty girl". He gave no signs in Awakening to being attracted to men and he gives no sign in DA2 if you play a female. Is he still gay even if you play a female? It's all very confusing to me. It felt really tacked onto his character as a way to placate a subsection of a subsection that wanted to romance him.

...

My opinion is that Anders' heterosexuality was taken away officially the way Alistair's was taken away unofficially. Respect for sexuality goes both ways and diversity requires diversity.

I'll just leave this here...

Either way, OP, I'm very happy for you. It takes so much courage to make that decision, and I admire you profusely for it.

As for the topic of "Hawkesexuality", I think it's a silly and reductive notion.
These four characters are demonstrably bisexual, and that is that. I cannot see how it "hurts immersion", "takes away from believability" or is a "blatant retcon" to name a few popular talking points.
I would agree that simply pandering would be counter-productive, but the characters in question are so thoroughly developed that I've never even considered that angle.
I haven't had any reason to.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 05 avril 2011 - 08:52 .

[Mr.House]

rynluna wrote...
All well said, OP.  Had to requote this part.

Back in 2007, I was coming to grips with who I was as a person.  Being able to romance Liara with my FemShep was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had.  I was still unsure if I was straight, gay, or in between but seeing how beautiful a relationship between two females was, definitely opened my eyes more.  That gaming experience was one of the many experiences that made me come to terms with being a lesbian.

I wish the ME team had given the m/m crowd the same opportunities and I feel they could take a page from Gaider and crew.

I have one maleshep who I'm saving for ME3 just in case the ME gets the stick out of there bum and gives him a romance option. He should get the same love my malehawke has with Anders!

[Zjarcal]

rynluna wrote...

not so anon wrote...
So I guess what I'm trying to say is... please, BioWare, keep on doing what you have been doing. Keep making choices like you made in Dragon Age 2, and hopefully will make in Dragon Age 3. Make queer friendly games. Include romance options for all of your fans, and not just those in the majority. Because it's important. And it affects people in ways that go beyond the game itself. Ways you may not realize (well, until we put up an open letter to you on your forums, heh). A part of me wishes that it wasn't so important. That such features of a game were so commonplace that we wouldn't have controversy over it every time a new entry in this wonderful series is released. But it is, and we do, and as a result I felt the need to write this.

All well said, OP.  Had to requote this part.

Agreed, this is my favorite part of the OP as well.

And no anonimity on my part, I fully support Bioware for what they did (LOUD AND PROUD) in DA2 regarding the romances and hope to see it done again in the future. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 avril 2011 - 09:08 .

[skunkdoctor]

LiquidGrape wrote...
These four characters are demonstrably bisexual, and that is that.

No, they aren't and no, it isn't. I'm repeating myself in this thread, so I am just going to leave it be with a high five to the OP.

[Darkest Dreamer]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

As others have said, it would be nice if the Mass Effect team were to use Dragon Age as a source of inspiration. I'm not exactly holding my breath, however. : (

Unfortunately, it just isn't easy for some writers to venture into such territory. That said, they also may have excluded such relationships simply because they didn't "feel" them fitting into the story they were creating. Writers can be finicky like that.

[Xilizhra]

skunkdoctor wrote...

Well said catabuca. Furthering that, I've yet to see anyone sufficiently explain to me how these characters are even bi, nor has anyone explained why a sexuality shift in a different playthrough makes a character inconsistent. I don't really feel like explaining why a playthrough is meant to be taken as a single entity again, so I won't. But to say that Hawkesexuality (not bi, except Isabella I think) = inconsistency is like saying because in some alternate universe I may be hooking up with a man I have an inconsistent personality. It's ridiculous.

I think Merrill says the qunari are attractive at some point. Which would imply some bisexuality if Hawke is female.

[JaylaClark]

skunkdoctor wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...
These four characters are demonstrably bisexual, and that is that.

No, they aren't and no, it isn't. I'm repeating myself in this thread, so I am just going to leave it be with a high five to the OP.

Speaking as someone who actually is blessed with options (or as a certain Ginger calls me, 'indecisive'), can we make a deal?  I get Leliana, Isabela and Zevran, and everyone else is a Schrodinger's Cat?  That is, their orientation or attraction isn't decided until the player is?  Kthxbai

[catabuca]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

As others have said, it would be nice if the Mass Effect team were to use Dragon Age as a source of inspiration. I'm not exactly holding my breath, however. : (

Unfortunately, it just isn't easy for some writers to venture into such territory. That said, they also may have excluded such relationships simply because they didn't "feel" them fitting into the story they were creating. Writers can be finicky like that.

Problem with that is the way they included it for fShep players and not for mShep players. Double standards don't go down so well when you're talking about integrity or 'feel' of the story.

Oh yeah, and the problem with the way they've been so offensive in their remarks about why it's not included when asked about it. Yeah. They could definitely do with taking a leaf out of the DA team's book.

[The Train]

DeathStride wrote...

That's pretty awesome(FLBW) that a videogame like DA helped you with such an important part of your life, definitely going to mention this when people are bashing videogames for all the "bad things" they make people do. Sorry, I don't mean to sound callous and come in here just to tell you I'm going to use your personal life for my own gain or something- I truly am happy for you

I completely agree that Bioware should keep up the trend of including non-hetero relationship options in their games and in general keep moving forward by abandoning the "norms" and the "accepted." That being said, I really would rather they do it the way they did in Origins where each person swung a certain way, they weren't just blank slates that were, as I saw one poster in these forums put it, "Hawke-sexuals."

The blank-slate category is exclusively designated for the main character so that each player can see themselves in him/her and make the character into what they imagine. The party-member/companions should be the exact opposite- they should be very carefully crafted and well defined characters that each have their own flavor of backstory and personality. By making the DA2 companions be whatever sexual orientation you wanted them to be, it makes the entire experience more bland, more one-size-fits-all generic stuff.

So if they want to make someone gay? make them gay. If they want someone to be straight, make them straight as a ruler. If they want someone BI, that's absolutely fine, but don't make them these bland/generic characters that'll just mold to whatever the player wants- that's the role of the player character.

Thoughts?

the OP has written eloquently and courageously on why games should be inclusive.  but i do agree with this.  i appreciated the fact that in DAO Zevran and Leliana are bisexual, but i also appreciated that Morrigan had strong feelings about that--and that those feelings made sense given her overall perspective on the world and how to make one's way within it.

i understand from a marketing perspective that to make every character bisexual resolves any problems with fans who will not get to romance a character they wanted to romance.  but i think it's ridiculous.

[catabuca]

This whole 'they are bisexual', 'no they aren't' thing is pretty pointless all told. The simple thing about it is that they are written in such a way as the player can decide for themselves how they want to think about it while they're playing the game, and it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the depth of their character, whether they fall in love with Hawke, whether they angst over being a slave, whether they make an ass-hatted job of trying to recover the history of their clan, whether they decide to betray Hawke at the end of act 2 or 3 or not, whether they decide to make things go boom, or whether they prefer the colour orange to the colour green.

It really isn't that important that we must have to define their orientation otherwise Thedas will implode and kittens everywhere will be killed in a really, really nasty way. The constant back and forth of 'yes they are', 'no they aren't' is counterproductive. It gets us nowhere. Can we all just not accept we might view the characters differently to each other and be happy with that? Can we all not just get on with romancing our favourites? Can we all not just get on with enjoying the fantastic choice that BW have given us?

[Darth Death]

People really need to keep their sexual orientation to themselves, & I completely disagree with everything said in the op.

[Tranceptor]

Zjarcal wrote...

rynluna wrote...

not so anon wrote...
So I guess what I'm trying to say is... please, BioWare, keep on doing what you have been doing. Keep making choices like you made in Dragon Age 2, and hopefully will make in Dragon Age 3. Make queer friendly games. Include romance options for all of your fans, and not just those in the majority. Because it's important. And it affects people in ways that go beyond the game itself. Ways you may not realize (well, until we put up an open letter to you on your forums, heh). A part of me wishes that it wasn't so important. That such features of a game were so commonplace that we wouldn't have controversy over it every time a new entry in this wonderful series is released. But it is, and we do, and as a result I felt the need to write this.

All well said, OP.  Had to requote this part.

Agreed, this is my favorite part of the OP as well.

And no anonimity on my part, I fully support Bioware for what they did (LOUD AND PROUD) in DA2 regarding the romances and hope to see it done again in the future. 

Yes! Seconded!

I think they made an excellent choice in this as it lets me enjoy the game and characters in the way I had always wished I could in all previous Bioware games.

[Darkest Dreamer]

catabuca wrote...

Problem with that is the way they included it for fShep players and not for mShep players. Double standards don't go down so well when you're talking about integrity or 'feel' of the story.

I never mentioned anything about integrity...

As for the "feel" of a story, that's mostly just between the author and their gut. And, if I'm right, then I can pretty much promise that it's practically never consistent and cares little for balance/equality/etc. It's not really a bad thing, it just means they're not as versatile. Which is a shame.

Oh yeah, and the problem with the way they've been so offensive in their remarks about why it's not included when asked about it. Yeah. They could definitely do with taking a leaf out of the DA team's book.

Sorry, I haven't seen their remarks. I was definitely not defending their behaviour.

[CerebraLArsenaL]

Statulos wrote...

 If Bioware helps a bit with the normalization and the fact that people are people first and then the rest, good for them.

^ This. I too live what people would call an "alt" lifestyle. Many are afraid of what they perceive as "different" or "outside" The more BW puts it out there the better, they dont do it in your face or offensively at all, and I think it IS helping in some small way to improve percepts

[catabuca]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Problem with that is the way they included it for fShep players and not for mShep players. Double standards don't go down so well when you're talking about integrity or 'feel' of the story.

I never mentioned anything about integrity...

As for the "feel" of a story, that's mostly just between the author and their gut. And, if I'm right, then I can pretty much promise that it's practically never consistent and cares little for balance/equality/etc. It's not really a bad thing, it just means they're not as versatile. Which is a shame.

Oh yeah, and the problem with the way they've been so offensive in their remarks about why it's not included when asked about it. Yeah. They could definitely do with taking a leaf out of the DA team's book.

Sorry, I haven't seen their remarks. I was definitely not defending their behaviour.

I know you weren't defending them My reply was a general rant at them, not at you. I was merely using your post as a jumping off point. My apologies if it came across otherwise.

Anyway, as to the point in bold, I'd disagree and say that it is a bad thing. Setting a double standard like this when it comes to a subject like this sends out a particular message, whether they intended it to or not. The DA team have been very good at recognising that their actions and content send a message regardless of whether they intend it (and have spoken on that subject in these forums), but the ME team appear to be blind to that.

If there had been no f/f content in the game then sure, I would have wondered why, and would have still been calling for the introduction of s/s options in the ME franchise. But I would have not felt the anger I do now that it is apparently ok for a female Shepard to identify as gay and have a relationship appropriate to that identification, whereas it is not ok for a male Shepard to do the same.

And I would not have felt the anger that I do had C Hudson and R Myzuka not come out with their now infamous comments (I don't have the link to hand, I can try and find it if you'd like -- or perhaps others have it) about why mShep can't be gay (and the handwaving of the Asari to boot).

It's a case of a bad situation that has been made into a terrible situation by the ME team's own actions. That's why I'm angry (but not with you, to reiterate ).