275 réponses à ce sujet

[Russalka]

Darth Death wrote...

People really need to keep their sexual orientation to themselves, & I completely disagree with everything said in the op.

Ban all PDAs and hand-holding altogether! Never talk about sex! Hide all hetero- and homosexuality!

[AngryFrozenWater]

Zmajc wrote...

It still doesn't change the fact that they irritated a lot of fans by adding NPC's they despise because they're of wrong sexual orientation for their taste.

I'm all for being progressive but more concern for huge majority of players's sexual orientation would be good.

I am part of that majority and I am OK with the route BW has taken with this. Not everything has to please that majority. They already do too much water in the wine in that respect. It's good that BW takes a stance. In ME1/ME2 I found a couple of quests that didn't involve combat and were about social issues (for the lack of a better term). I haven't seen those in DA:O or DA2 (or maybe I didn't notice). I love stuff like that. Make people think for a second before they slay the next wave of qunari. Even if it is only once or twice in the game.

[Darkest Dreamer]

catabuca wrote...

I know you weren't defending them My reply was a general rant at them, not at you. I was merely using your post as a jumping off point. My apologies if it came across otherwise.

No worries, you didn't. Sorry, I've just been trying to choose my words more carefully after the last incident.

Anyway, as to the point in bold, I'd disagree and say that it is a bad thing. Setting a double standard like this when it comes to a subject like this sends out a particular message, whether they intended it to or not. The DA team have been very good at recognising that their actions and content send a message regardless of whether they intend it (and have spoken on that subject in these forums), but the ME team appear to be blind to that.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I completely understand your view but, in a way, I've never condoned stifling a need to write the way you want simply out of a fear for controversy, or a need to empathise. Sometimes it's nice to see things... raw, for a lack of better words. Or at least that's how I feel for other mediums so it seems sensible that the same be said for games.

If there had been no f/f content in the game then sure, I would have wondered why, and would have still been calling for the introduction of s/s options in the ME franchise. But I would have not felt the anger I do now that it is apparently ok for a female Shepard to identify as gay and have a relationship appropriate to that identification, whereas it is not ok for a male Shepard to do the same.

For me the anger comes after reading some of the comments by the authors, which imply that their choices weren't so much for artistic, or gut, reasons as they were born of ignorance. 

 "We still view it as if you're picturing a PG-13 action movie."

Apparently that was one of the responses when asked why they were refraining from including any same-sex relations. As if the act itself were immature compared to what I suppose they deem as "normal". And yet they not only included a female/female option but I've seen some attempts to disguise it as a female/alien relationship. That's akin to slapping a green skin on a guy, shaving his hair, and saying he's suddenly genderless.

And I would not have felt the anger that I do had C Hudson and R Myzuka not come out with their now infamous comments (I don't have the link to hand, I can try and find it if you'd like -- or perhaps others have it) about why mShep can't be gay (and the handwaving of the Asari to boot).

I'm really sorry to ask, I was trying to find them myself for awhile (only came across the one), but if you could provide a link I'd definitely appreciate it. There's no obligation to, of course. I feel I can take your word for it and it's mostly just curiosity driving me.

It's a case of a bad situation that has been made into a terrible situation by the ME team's own actions. That's why I'm angry (but not with you, to reiterate ).

Hehe, thanks.

This is really WAY off topic. If it's okay, I'll probably just PM you my next response.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 05 avril 2011 - 11:42 .

[skunkdoctor]

Xilizhra wrote...

skunkdoctor wrote...

Well said catabuca. Furthering that, I've yet to see anyone sufficiently explain to me how these characters are even bi, nor has anyone explained why a sexuality shift in a different playthrough makes a character inconsistent. I don't really feel like explaining why a playthrough is meant to be taken as a single entity again, so I won't. But to say that Hawkesexuality (not bi, except Isabella I think) = inconsistency is like saying because in some alternate universe I may be hooking up with a man I have an inconsistent personality. It's ridiculous.

I think Merrill says the qunari are attractive at some point. Which would imply some bisexuality if Hawke is female.

To put in game context, I think the Qunari are attractive (as a male), and being able to notice, appreciate, and voice that fact does not make me gay or bi, regardless of what sex character I am in a given playthrough. The same thing applies in real-world situations, I have voiced the opinion that males, be they friends or celebrities, are attractive (I have a man crush on both Paul Newman and NPH), but that does not imply that I am gay or bi.

[Zkyire]

Russalka wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

People really need to keep their sexual orientation to themselves, & I completely disagree with everything said in the op.

Ban all PDAs and hand-holding altogether! Never talk about sex! Hide all hetero- and homosexuality!

Your display pic is showing too much skin.

I demand you tell Tim Curry to go back in time and wear a facemask!

[Ninebits]

OP:  Thank you for posting this. As has been said, it's not easy to do, even while not on a primary account. Cheers, and I'm glad things are better for you now.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Russalka wrote...

Why doesn't heterosexuality need a back story or reasoning then?

It was explained enough why Anders was not so keen on opening up on things in Awakening and why he is now. Others did not really need any explanation, they were as they were. Why make it into a problem?

Because it's the norm?

Last time I checked, the number of homosexuals was from 2-4% (estimated).
I bet theres' more foot fetishists in the world - they are just not as vocal.

Does that mean that every single romance should have the camera focus on the feet?

[randName]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Why doesn't heterosexuality need a back story or reasoning then?

It was explained enough why Anders was not so keen on opening up on things in Awakening and why he is now. Others did not really need any explanation, they were as they were. Why make it into a problem?

Because it's the norm?

Last time I checked, the number of homosexuals was from 2-4% (estimated).
I bet theres' more foot fetishists in the world - they are just not as vocal.

Does that mean that every single romance should have the camera focus on the feet?

& This doesn't explain why homosexuality needs an explanation, or companions won't explain all their idiosyncrasies with you, or would you demand that Varric would explain all the things that set him apart?

The idea that suddenly everyone that isn’t following the norm would need an detailed explanation for all their unique, or rare features would make BioWare games an exercise in reading/listening, since most, if not all companions are far from normative (albeit some are generic); or do you just want people to explain why they are homosexual, and not why Anders likes cats? & Anders does mention a boyfriend of old apparently, and Isabela hardly needs an explanation, and neither Merrill or Fenris will they act homosexual, or interested in Hawk, unless you initiate it. (Feris and Isabela does get together if you aren’t romancing either).

But the idea that it would require an explanation I do find absurd, given that we have a universal one, you are born with it.

& And the Wikipedia writes "A 2006 study suggested that 20% of the population anonymously reported
some homosexual feelings, although relatively few participants in the study identified themselves as homosexual. ". I was thought in school that it was around 10%, but either way the numbers vary, and I'm certain more than this explore homosexual options in BioWare games. I do for one, and I'm straight, I just prefer female lead characters in 3rd person games, or games that are heavily voiced, while I'm the opposite in games like BG or FO, EVE, and I play male characters in those.

Modifié par randName, 06 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[witchthief]

It's been interesting reading through the differing opinions voiced here in this thread, especially when I have had trouble forming my own concrete ones on the issue.

On one hand, I support having total character development for party members, from their history to their sexual preference to their preferred candy - the more complete a character is, the more 'real' I feel they are. So one foot is firmly of the opinion that romances should be done in the Dragon Age Origins style, where SOME characters swing both ways where others don't.

But then we have the other hand, eagerly awaiting it's turn to type out a point of view. I also enjoy the DA2 style of 'whoever you like at whatever gender' romance. I guess this is because I tend to think out my own player character, and sometimes a certain person will suit that character better than others when it comes down to a 'partnership'.

I can already feel the thoughts forming in some of your heads "but witchy, you can't have it both ways!". Well, tough. Sorry, but I happen to like my little perch on the fence with relation to this issue. I can see which ones of you forgot to part your hair properly this morning from up here, and I'm closer to the sunlight. *grin*

Really, I suppose it kind of has to come down to this - if you, personally, don't feel that a character should romance someone of the same gender - DON'T MAKE THEM DO IT. Just because they CAN doesn't mean that you HAVE to. Ignore that particular foible of the character. It's easy enough - just like ignoring that horrid floral dress grandma wore at the last family get-together.

And if I didn't really make a lot of sense during thias post, sorry. It's hard to gether my thoughts into a coherent mass when I just want to get them down before I get distracted by..... oooo, butterfly!

[Chromie]

Russalka wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

People really need to keep their sexual orientation to themselves, & I completely disagree with everything said in the op.

Ban all PDAs and hand-holding altogether! Never talk about sex! Hide all hetero- and homosexuality!

I swear it's like the 60's never happened...free love great time amirite?

[Russalka]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because it's the norm?

Last time I checked, the number of homosexuals was from 2-4% (estimated).
I bet theres' more foot fetishists in the world - they are just not as vocal.

Does that mean that every single romance should have the camera focus on the feet?

You are comparing sexual orientation to a fetish. Needing to explain or HIDE homosexuality because heterosexuality is more widespread is what plenty of Bioware employees have responded to.

But this was just an addition to randName's excellent post.

Modifié par Russalka, 06 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[Akka le Vil]

Russalka wrote...

You are comparing sexual orientation to a fetish.

Actually, they are both very comparable, so I don't really see your point.
(what I mean is that "sexual orientation" is very comparable to "sexual fetish", not that homosexuality has any particular link to feet )

[bzombo]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Zmajc wrote...

It still doesn't change the fact that they irritated a lot of fans by adding NPC's they despise because they're of wrong sexual orientation for their taste.

I'm all for being progressive but more concern for huge majority of players's sexual orientation would be good.

I am part of that majority and I am OK with the route BW has taken with this. Not everything has to please that majority. They already do too much water in the wine in that respect. It's good that BW takes a stance. In ME1/ME2 I found a couple of quests that didn't involve combat and were about social issues (for the lack of a better term). I haven't seen those in DA:O or DA2 (or maybe I didn't notice). I love stuff like that. Make people think for a second before they slay the next wave of qunari. Even if it is only once or twice in the game.

they do have social type issues. wouldn't helping a slave remain free (fenris), having the option to employ a slave to give her her life back, and the question of freedom represented by how the chantry essentially locks up mages in a tower be social issues tackled within the context of the game/setting?

[Pygmali0n]

If you try to be everything you are nothing.

[Tirigon]

Russalka wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

People really need to keep their sexual orientation to themselves, & I completely disagree with everything said in the op.

Ban all PDAs and hand-holding altogether! Never talk about sex! Hide all hetero- and homosexuality!

Penis?

[MrTijger]

Pygmali0n wrote...

If you try to be everything you are nothing.

No, in this context that makes you Zevran

[Cutlass Jack]

Pygmali0n wrote...

If you try to be everything you are nothing.

"To learn my teachings, I must first teach you how to learn."

[naruhodo]

Darth Death wrote...

People really need to keep their sexual orientation to themselves, & I completely disagree with everything said in the op.

He's climbin in yo threads

He's snatchin yo homos up

Tryin'a oppress them so y'all need to

Hide your gays, hide your bis
Hide your gays, hide your bis

And hide your lesbians too

Cuz he afraid of errybody out there



Seriously dude, we'll hide our sexual orientation JUST AS SOON AS ALL straight men and women hide their wedding rings, their pictures of their spouses, and all other evidence of their sexuality :innocent:

Guess what, April is Queer Pride Month, and we're here and you betta get used to it or else you're just making life harder on yourself!

[Pygmali0n]

MrTijger wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

If you try to be everything you are nothing.

No, in this context that makes you Zevran

You can't compare Zevran to the characters in DA2 - he was an individual - just lazily making everyone bi without character, flavour or reason just makes you realise you're playing a fake badly written game.

[MrTijger]

Pygmali0n wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

If you try to be everything you are nothing.

No, in this context that makes you Zevran

You can't compare Zevran to the characters in DA2 - he was an individual - just lazily making everyone bi without character, flavour or reason just makes you realise you're playing a fake badly written game.

And again Mr Laidlaw is proved correct, text is a poor medium for relaying intent.

It was a joke, dude, because Zevran sleeps with everyone? Cant believe I'm explaining this....

[Pygmali0n]

MrTijger wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

If you try to be everything you are nothing.

No, in this context that makes you Zevran

You can't compare Zevran to the characters in DA2 - he was an individual - just lazily making everyone bi without character, flavour or reason just makes you realise you're playing a fake badly written game.

And again Mr Laidlaw is proved correct, text is a poor medium for relaying intent.

It was a joke, dude, because Zevran sleeps with everyone? Cant believe I'm explaining this....

No, I'd just say it makes you a poor medium for relaying intent, or me a poor recipient - or tired and not paying enough attention. One of DA:O's great achievements was conveying multiple meanings - don't fall for the propaganda.

If text is so bad then Shakespeare's plays would not have survived and also would not be open to so many different readings.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 08 avril 2011 - 09:25 .

[AlanC9]

Multiple meanings? What are you talking about?

[Cobrawar]

to the OP . show pics or it didn't happen lol

[Pygmali0n]

AlanC9 wrote...

Multiple meanings? What are you talking about?

Different moods, double entendres, different registers, where you would place (and therefore prefer) the stress in a sentence - even your own accent could be accomodated if you so wished. Lots of stuff like that.

[9999dmg]

I think the best thing to come out of Dragon Age 2 is the fact that it sparked this debate in the gaming community, and apparently, the dialogue was quite needed. In that respect, bravo, Bioware. Honestly, I sort of viewed the whole Chantry/Mage conflict in the lore of Dragon Age as drawing parallels from the bigotry the LGBT community faces in the real world to begin with, but I don't think that really gets to the nitty gritty of it with a lotta people like that they did here seems to (if that truly was their intent).

The people in this thread referring to the "static" sexuality of the characters in Origins make my brain hurt. Morrigan may be straight as an arrow, but go ahead and do your best make your character's head resemble a lunch box, and that will inexplicably be what tickles her fancy. Or how about race; many times, that factors into sexual preference without any kind of racism or anything coming into the picture. If you're an Elf, she likes short, slightly effeminate dudes with pointy ears. If you're a Dwarf, she's attracted to squat, hairy men that perpetually smell of sulfur. And in 2, the characters are just as "static" sexually as they were before in the first game. Anders had a sexual encounter with Karl whether you're a male or not, and Fenris... well, I have the worst gaydar of anyone I've ever met, and I knew he pitches for both teams and catches for one the minute I laid eyes on him (I can only speak from the male Hawke perspective as I've, so far, only played through as a male). The point I'm tryin to make is that it's a game with a story that centers around a character who happens to be the sexiest, most eligible bachelor/ette in your social circle/gang of armed ruffians and they're gonna wanna eat out of your lunchbox, so to speak, regardless.

And to "not so anon," as dumb as this may sound, your post warmed my heart, and I applaud you: congratulations. Coming out to the people you're close to requires a kind of bravery I, as a straight male (...ladies?) will probably never truly understand, and I hope you find someone worthy of the character that took. I hope everything was well received. Good luck with everything.

Modifié par 9999dmg, 08 avril 2011 - 11:45 .